Talk:Arrowverse/Archive 6

Convert article into franchise article
Isn't it high time we did this? At least mention somewhere that "Arrowverse" is more than a fictional universe: a franchise? The MCU and DCEU are also described as such in their Wiki articles. Over here, Kriesberg says, "...just making the Arrow-verse, which is what we call Legends, Flash and Arrow work and then making Supergirl work, it's enough of a challenge without having to add a fourth player". He does not explicitly mention the term as the name of the universe these shows inhabit, rather like an umbrella term. Anyone got anything to say? -- Kailash29792   (talk)  15:50, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * It should have been about the franchise from the beginning. But it wouldn't take much to change the article--just need to change "shared universe" to "franchise" and it's good to go. DonQuixote (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely following what you mean by calling it a "franchise" article. It technically is, because we cover comics and the like here as well. We just differentiate between what is part of the same universe directly, and what is just crossovers but exists by itself. Supergirl can come into their universe, but she isn't part of it. She doesn't impact them if something happens. Not like how Legends, Flash, and Arrow and impact each other's storylines. I mean, what "franchise" are you trying to market it under? We cannot simply create our own because we want it to be "easier".   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  16:25, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I mean, though Supergirl is not part of the Arrowverse (known to it's inhabitants as Earth-1), all these Berlanti-produced DC shows - Arrow, Flash, Legends, Vixen, Supergirl and the animated Constantine (not sure if it is a continuation of NBC's live action series) - share continuity by being in the same multiverse. That's why I see them as one franchise. So if "Arrowverse" is used as a franchise term, then all these shows are part of it. Variety, CraveOnline and Rotten Tomatoes all use it as a franchise term to include Supergirl (RT uses it to include NBC's Constantine). -- Kailash29792   (talk)  17:46, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Whether we call it the Arrowverse or the Arrowverse franchise, the criteria still remain. We need the primary source (producers/showrunners/etc.) including Supergirl in the franchise or we need enough secondary sources that include Supergirl in the franchise so that it rises above fringe. DonQuixote (talk) 18:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The producers have already stated that she isn't Separate from her crossovers with the Flash, which is only allowed because they created this multiverse concept within the series, she isn't part of their universe. Berlanti has said this. She doesn't impact it. She's a fun character that can come into it, but her series is independent of the other 3. Also, "franchise" would not be an accurate term to use in what you are referring to. A "franchise" is really something that crosses multiple mediums (e.g., films, toys, comics, games). In that case, Arrowverse is a franchise because they are crossing multiple mediums. Your argument about making it a franchise so as to include Supergirl into the fold is based on an incorrect understanding of franchise. She wouldn't be included because it would suddenly be a franchise, she would be included because the producers have decided to make her universe no longer independent from the rest of the Arrowverse.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  18:30, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Anyone who has seen the Supergirl episode "Medusa" will remember that Kara is recruited by Barry and Cisco to fight the Dominators on Earth-1; this storyline is expanded upon in Flash, Arrow and Legends (at the end of which Kara returns to Earth-38). But the next Supergirl episode "Supergirl Lives" shows her back on her Earth with no mention of the "Invasion" crossover, or an explanation as to when she came back, or if she ever left. That's how I think the Arrowverse shows affect this, making it necessary for Supergirl viewers to watch the entire Invasion crossover event after "Medusa" and before "Supergirl Lives". Similarly, it is necessary for Supergirl viewers to watch "Duet (The Flash)" after "Star-Crossed (Supergirl)" and before "Distant Sun". Am I wrong somewhere in saying these shows, based on how they affect each other, form a franchise? If not, a series? -- Kailash29792   (talk)  18:52, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your original research. Please publish it in a reliable source so that we can cite you. DonQuixote (talk) 18:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, see . DonQuixote (talk) 18:57, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that border on WP:COI? And although I have a degree in journalism, I have not yet been successful in obtaining a full-time job in the field. So until Berlanti or his team use "Arrowverse" to refer to the entire multiverse of their DC TV shows (or as a franchise covering shows outside Earth-1 like Supergirl) which seems highly unlikely, the status quo of this article remains unchanged, and this discussion closed. Sorry if I wasted your time guys. -- Kailash29792   (talk)  19:18, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * No one is saying that a series does not exist, or that a franchise doesn't exist. As I've explained above, the franchise isn't a franchise because of Supergirl. It already exists. Franchise is based on medium presence, not number of shows. Is Supergirl part of the Arrowverse series? No. She exists within the multiverse that was created, but "Arrowverse" has always referred to shows that exist within the same universe and "timeline". Supergirl exists on her own and is pulled into those shows when they deem it necessary. What she does in her world does not affect the other shows. What the Flash does on his show DOES affect the other shows, and the same is true for them. That's why on this page Supergirl is listed as a "crossover" show, not part of the Arrowverse. What you all are asking about is not to say "franchise" but to basically rename the page to something that basically just encompasses all CW shows.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  20:41, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Characters not yet confirmed to appear
So, on this page in the cast table, the key states "Does not appear / is not yet confirmed to appear". At List of Arrowverse cast members, the table states "A dark grey cell indicates the character was not in the season, or that the character's presence in the season has not yet been announced." Can the editors following this talk page please state at Talk:X-Men (film series)‎ that this is not a violation of WP:CRYSTAL? They have performed edits such as this and this as support for there edits. Cheers. --  Alex TW 11:27, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Black Lightning Not Part of Arrowverse with Supergirl/Arrow/Legends/Flash
An Entertainment Weekly article confirms that Black Lightning will not be joining Supergirl, Arrow, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow as part of the Arrowverse. -AnonWikiEditor (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Berlanti already mentioned that when the series was being developed for Fox. Pedowitz now says, "We do not aim to do a five-way crossover ... Black Lightning, at this time, is not part of the Arrowverse. It is a separate situation. But there will be a big fourth quarter crossover with all four of the shows that are on in the fall". Nowhere does he mention that the term "Arrowverse" means the multiverse encompassing those four shows, and he does not directly use it to mean a franchise that includes Supergirl . -- Kailash29792   (talk)  19:37, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Cress Williams (Jefferson Pierce/Black Lightning) about eventually crossing over with the Arrowverse after his team is formed.. Also, apparently the crossover will be happening earlier this year (November instead of early December). - Brojam (talk) 18:30, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 7 external links on Arrowverse. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/guggenheim-butters-on-agent-carters-future-arrows-rogues-more
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121013180840/http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/10/11/wednesday-final-ratingsthe-x-factor-survivor-the-neighbors-no-adjustments-for-arrow/152524/ to http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/10/11/wednesday-final-ratingsthe-x-factor-survivor-the-neighbors-no-adjustments-for-arrow/152524
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Chronological order
Someone should create a table like this one that shows the chronological order of all the arrowverse episodes in the main series. https://flash-arrow-order.herokuapp.com/

Then it would be easier to understand how it all goes together; as well as giving people a useful tool so they can watch it in order. I know it would be very useful and easier considering all the shows at this time are off the air so should be able to get this done by October when they re-start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MissTechnolysis27 (talk • contribs) 12:21, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That is unnecessary trivia; see WP:TRIVIA for more. The Arrowverse is a shared universe of series, not a single series itself, so it makes no sense to add a table of merged episodes. --  Alex TW 12:28, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Unnecessary and would be hard to do it correctly because the air dates do not corespond to the actual chronological order in the universe. Take for example, Arrows "Canary Cry" (S04E19) aired on April 27, 2016 but occurs after The Flashs "The Runaway Dinosaur" (S02E21) which only aired on May 10, 2016. - Brojam (talk) 13:50, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually someone has put a list of them in order chronological in terms of timeline and not airdate, although this also includes Constantine and Supergirl as well. Jester66 (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List of The Flash episodes
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of The Flash episodes. - Brojam (talk) 04:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Characters
Given that we have an entire page to the characters that includes guests and recurring, I think this page should just list the series regulars for each show. It's getting way too long for this page to hold. Visually long, not size size long.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  21:38, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that we need to change this table. Firstly, "First appearance" and Supergirl columns should be removed. This condition should work: "This table includes recurring, main characters, who have appeared in at least two series as a member of the principle ("main") cast for at least one of those."- Brojam (talk) 02:02, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Was literally about to reformat the table. I'll whip it up in my sandbox for all to see and comment. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Here it is. This includes all characters as defined by Brojam's condition (and is in the key). So a majority from the table were removed. However, I have added Curtis Holt/Mister Terrific, as it has recently been confirmed he will be in The Ray. Let me know any thoughts, but I think this can be implemented. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:46, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Why is Supergirl listed there? Unless "Arrowverse" includes shows outside Earth-1, it cannot be included. Yet Freedom Fighters is listed, despite taking place on Earth X. But I guess the latter will also take place on Earth-1, due to Marc Guggenheim calling it "an origin story about the Earth-1 iteration of The Ray", hence it is listed (something Supergirl hasn't yet done; Kara Danvers went there twice, but only as seen in The Flash). -- Kailash29792   (talk)  05:13, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps instead of the Supergirl column there should be an "Outside series" column to collectively refer to any show crossed over with that is not in the Arrowverse? - adamstom97 (talk) 08:49, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * None of the characters in the "outside series" belong in this table since none of them meet the condition. Also, the characters should be liked to their appropriate comic articles. - Brojam (talk) 12:50, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I would probably agree with this on the grounds that the rest of the article is specifically separating them out as not being directly part of the Arrowverse. P.S. Harrison Wells isn't listed.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  19:59, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Surprisingly Tom Cavanagh has only appeared on The Flash so he does not meet the condition. - Brojam (talk) 20:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * This is why I think the list should just be a list of main cast for each series, and not this crossover stuff. I think if you're going to "note" anything, it should be a note about which have crossed over. It seems odd to just focus on crossovers.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  12:12, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Well this article is about the universe; if a character has only appeared in their own series then there is no reason to include them. If you want to see the series regulars of each series, you can simply go to that series article or the separate list of Arrowverse cast members. - Brojam (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with the way the "Shared cast and characters" section is, just the "First appearance" column appears to serve no purpose. So that alone can be deleted. -- Kailash29792   (talk)  13:06, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Supergirl characters can be included, because all three satisfy the given condition. Also, for this article, it should highlight "recurring" or "shared" characters, and readers can go to the individual articles to see the full main cast members for that series. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:33, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Supergirl is not a series in this universe (well according to how this article is currently formatted) so Supergirl characters are simply guest stars, nothing more. - Brojam (talk) 17:23, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I disagree. This is an article about the universe as a whole, not solely about cross overs within the universe (which is really what you're referring to). It makes better sense that you would chronicle all main cast, and then indicate who has crossed over, instead of just having a table for crossovers. Doing it the current way just creates confusion when trying to look at the table, hence my own confusion as to why Tom Cavanaugh wasn't listed at all. Otherwise, by your argument we should actually get rid of these series summaries and ONLY list the summaries for episodes that contain crossovers.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  20:20, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Not really. This article is about the shared universe. We give a summary of each series that is part of the universe, and then go into detail about the universe connections and crossovers, as well as the response to that, etc. So it isn't necessary to list all main cast members if we decide we don't want to as a group. As for my last comment about having an outside series column, I was proposing that because of characters from Arrowverse shows that crossover to other, non-Arrowverse shows. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:27, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I hope no-one is against me removing the "First appearance" column, since I felt it added nothing to the table. Kailash29792   (talk)  08:51, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No, but it should still ultimately be reformatted to a table like the one I created, and include only characters in starring roles that have appeared across the various series. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:24, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Any final comments on the proposed new table? - Brojam (talk) 03:54, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I still feel the new table formatting should be implemented, be it with all the characters we have currently, the criteria for the table in my sandbox, or one completely different. It is a cleaner table and implementation in my opinion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:56, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Total agreement that the new table should be implemented and with the criteria in your sandbox. Sorry, should have been more clear with my comment. I meant final comments before implementation. I understand that it might seem weird that someone like Tom Cavanagh does not appear, but technically he has not played a character for more than a year as a series regular and has had no crossovers, hence why he's not listed. I'm sure this will change in the future, if not this year then soon after, and he will be added to the table. We could always change the criteria to include all series regulars from each series, but I'm strongly opposed to that since characters like Adrian Chase or Tala Ashe (for the moment) have no business in this table. - Brojam (talk) 02:12, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * If there aren't any objections, I'm going to go ahead and make the change. - Brojam (talk) 02:43, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:The Flash (season 4)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:The Flash (season 4). --  Alex TW 03:02, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Freedom Fighters: The Ray version of Green Arrow and The Flash
Are we going to include the new voice actors for the Earth-X versions from the web series of Oliver and Barry on the list? Jester66 (talk) 00:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * No, because they are playing different characters; Black Arrow and Blitzkreig (the Earth-X versions of Green Arrow and the Flash), so they do not satisfy the conditions to be included in the table: This table includes recurring, main characters, who have appeared in at least two series as a member of the principle ("main") cast for at least one of those. As opposed to the Cisco and Caitlin characters who appear in the series, who are from Earth-1 and are the same characters as in The Flash. - Brojam (talk) 01:09, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Vixen showrunner
Is there a source for Marc Guggenheim and Keto Shimizu being the showrunners for Vixen, for the main series' table? The article doesn't have one, and I can't seem to find one especially for Shimizu. --  Alex TW 05:41, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I find that our sources for all three animated web series are not strong. None of them actually mention them as showrunners, but as executive producers. The Constantine source also mentions Sarah Schechter as EP like Goyer and Berlanti, but somehow she is not listed in the table. - Brojam (talk) 01:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)