Talk:Ars Goetia

Too many categories
This entry has a new category added to it almost weekly and the latest is Abrahamic texts. I have listed the definition given by the creator of the category below:

Abrahamic Texts[]

Abrahamic texts are religious texts that overlap multiple Abrahamic religions, and therefore usually precede, either the division of Christianity and Judaism, or the birth of Islam in the 7th century.

I fail to see how this fits into any areas of this definition. It does overlap Christian and Judaic terminology but it first appears 7 centuries after the arrival of Islam and at least 12 centuries after the division of Christianity and Judaism. Whatever the influence of these two religions on the text I do not see how it would be considered religious by any of them. It places it along with the entire Lesser Key in the same category as the Torah and Heptateuch and there is clearly no shared thread between them. If the author can give a single Christian authority who recognizes the text as of a religious nature or even non-heretical I would reconsider. I will allow the author to leave some reason for the additions or I will change them in the next few days--Chaoscrowley 14:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah....This article definitley does not fall under Abrahamic, nor witchraft for that matter, and will be changed to a more agreed upon category in the future. Possibly Grimories - Solomonic.

Zos 22:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Howling?
The 'howling' of the title is believed to refer to the incantations made by the conjuror.

This statement in the second paragraph no longer makes sense. There was a time when the opening sentence of the article claimed that "Ars Goetia" translates as "the howling art", but fortunately that's long since changed. Does anyone take issue with striking the sentence from the second paragraph? Canonblack 22:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This is springing from a discussion I am having on the Goetia page. I don't see howling as having anything to do with is either. Its based on another greek word, I believe gevh. And should have no inclusion. Its like saying that the word trepidation is affected by the word tree, just because the begining of the word is closely related.

Or a better example (in greek) would be that of the words having only 2 letters to relate to each other like this:

ekgona - offspring ekmageion - impressions

Once I get the Goetia page's etymology in more of an unbiased sense, this article will be changed as well.

Zos 20:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Etylmology
The etylmology is going to be changed unless someone can show a source for Ars Goetia that means art of witchcraft. Goetia is a mispelling, and is closer to sorcery than witchcraft.

http://users.california.com/~rathbone/greek.htm

goes - wizard goeteia - sorcery, jugglery

This would render a definition to more close to any of these:

The art of sorcery. The sorcerers art. The art of juggling/jugglery. The wizards art. Furthermore, ars is latin for art, and not greek.

Zos 19:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I found the following on Economic Expert . Com, not the best source for such things, but what should be cited until a better is found. http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Goetia.htm


 * "In occultism and demonology, Goetia (from the Greek "goeteia", meaning " witchcraft") is a type of magick used for evoking demons or other spirits and obliging them to do the conjurer's will, without falling under their power."


 * KV 23:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * "The word Goetia is derived from the Greek word for sorcery or witchcraft, and a related word meaning a wailer or in Crowley's etymology, howling." http://www.historyofmagick.com/magick/articleview.asp?Post=82


 * KV 23:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Goetian - "A Sorcerer who Employs Spirits or Demons in Magic." A variant of a "goety" or "goetic." See "goety."
 * Goetic - "Pertaining to the Raising of Spirits or Demons; A Sorcerer who Employs Spirits or Demons in Magic." The French form is "goetique." See "goety."
 * Goetical - "Pertaining to the Raising of Spirits or Demons." A variant of "goetic." See "goety" and "goetic." 
 * Goety - "Magic Involving the Employment of Evil Spirits or Demons; A Sorcerer who Employs Spirits or Demons in Magic." This word is generally archaic. It was sometimes misspelled "geoty" in a confusion of etymology, were some believed it to be from "geo" = "earth." In Early Modern English, "goety" was often contrasted against "magia," seen as "white magik." It could also be seen as opposite of "theurgy." English derives the word from the French "goetie." The word still exists in French, though it is generally marked "rare" in dictionaries. "Goetie" is also the proper German spelling. As with most words English derives from French, the word comes from Greek through Latin. The Latin form is "goetia," meaning "black magic." The primary word in Greek is "goetiea," meaning "witchcraft, jugglery," from "goes," meaning a "sorcerer, wizard" or a "juggler, cheat." Other Greek forms of the word are "goeteuma" = "a spell or charm," "goeteusis" = "sorcery," "goeteutikos" = "sorceress," "goetiuo" = "to bewitch, fascinate" and "goetis" = "bewitching, fascinating." The root of all these is generally the idea of "howling" or "murmering." This can be seen in the related words "goes" = "wailer," "goos" = "weeping, wailing," "goao" = "to groan, weep," "gongustes" = "mutter, mumble," and even "goi goi," the sound of pigs grunting. Exactly where the word came to mean specifically dealing with evil spirits is either in the French or in English.


 * http://www.panikon.com/phurba/alteng/g.html


 * KV 23:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've found that after it was latinized, it took a meaning as witchcraft. Even after that, in the german variation, its use wrong. Anyone who has knowladge of the books itself can see that.

Zos 01:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge Discussion
Please join the discussion in the Goetia talk page.