Talk:Art Tatum/Archives/2015

Transcription
Hi, I wanted to share with you a transcription that I made recently of Art Tatum's "Begin The Beguine".

http://collinatorstudios.com/tatum

enjoy!

-patrick

All I can say is. Wow. Bmathew 07:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Amazing, thanks!

++

Great article. In the 40's, Tatum also recorded for the V-Disc series, and recorded for the [Moses] Asch label.

Error

 * I removed the following passage; the section in caps was posted by a newby, so it is probably an error rather than vandalism. I raise it here as the "images" referred to may not be the sequence in the Dorsey's biopic:
 * and a couple of other brief images in a non-descript documentary [PLEASE FIX AS SEVERAL MINUTES OF VIDEO OF ART TATUM CAN BE FOUND IN THE VIDEO DOCUMENTARY MARTIN SCORSESE PRESENTS THE BLUES].
 * Philip Cross 11:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Great improvising pianists ...
Imagine, if you will, a pianists' heaven. I can imagine Art Tatum and Charles Camille Saint-Saëns there, trying to outdo each other, with, amongst other things, outrageous runs up and down the keyboard!


 * Somehow I doubt that Saint-Saëns would want to jam with Tatum. — Mütze 21:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?
Quite a few sentences like


 * To hear these recordings today is to marvel at the structure and interplay which are unequalled to this day.

Might be factual but doesn't carry that tone at all


 * I would agree that it has issues with WP:NPOV, and that is the one reason why I am not recommending that the rating of this article be raised drastically. Sentences like that really contribute to the problem, and it could stand to use a lot of cleanup. On the other hand, it would be rather hard to remove enough bias to really be completely acceptable simply because of the significant issue of 99% of the source material usable written about Art Tatum carrying the same amount of bias as this article at least (and Too Marvelous for Words by James Lester probably makes the bias here look insignificant at times...). It is primarily factual, but one thing I feel that should really be included if possible is that some of Tatum's claims (him picking up piano at age fourteen to fifteen...inferred from that book) are contrary to those of even some of his family members, the latter already explained in the article here (relevant section) impinball (talk) 04:52, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 06:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Are the wikipedia servers based in the US? Art Tatum's recordings are in the public domain in the UK and should be in the rest of Europe. You all his recordings to this article and you wouldn't be breaking the law. In these countries, the copyright has expired. Supposed 02:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup ideas
Certain details in the article sound a little less than encyclopedic. I’ll put them down here for discussion before I suggest any real action.

1. The use of the word “songs” in the second paragraph of the biography. As piano duets are rarely songs, the words “works” or “pieces” would be preferable.

AGREED - kolef88

2.”he made great leaps in terms of technique and theory”. One does not really make leaps in theory unless one is a researching musicologist. Do we mean advances in harmonic language, in use of counterpoint within the jazz idiom (three hand effects etc …) or what?. The term "theory” means exactly nothing in this context.

OK, BUT ALREADY USED THE PHRASE "HARMONIC VOCABULARY".


 * Technique and harmony would still be enough IMHO Batonpower (talk) 04:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

3. “May have inspired pianists” – either he did or he didn’t – subjective if left uncorrected

4. “Occasionally, this was a matter of altering the root movements of a tune so as to more effectively apply familiar harmonies” - far too arcane for an encyclopedia article – sounds smart, but provides little real information.

THAT'S HOW JAZZ MUSICIANS REHARMONIZE TUNES -- THEY ALTER THE ROOTS OR THE CHORD STRUCTURES.


 * Of course. But this page will be read by other people than jazz players. Reharmonizing would be a better term - there is not even a "root movement" entry in Wikipedia, although you could certainly write one if you wish - I mean this in all seriousness. Batonpower (talk) 04:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

5. The bit about Tatum playing with a trio sound like the subjective interpretation of a single person. To say that the trio lacked ensemble without surmising about the reasons would be preferable. There can be a whole bunch of reasons why the trio didn’t work (working conditions, lack of preparation, lack of co-operation by individuals etc …), it'd be nice to have a real consensus, but few people have actually heard those recordings. WHAT'S YOUR OPINION OF THE TRIO WORK?


 * My opinion matters little, more people need to listen to them to come to a credible consensus. My feeling - and I heard them loooong ago, is that they hardly prepared, and that Tatum's style was not really based on any kind of co-operation. Batonpower (talk) 04:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT FEELING -- HOWEVER, IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR JAZZ ENSEMBLES TO NOT PREPARE MUCH IF AT ALL, EVEN FOR RECORD DATES. Kolef88

6. The acclaim section contains too many unsourced quotes (Rakhmaninov, Gershwin, Rubinstein) and one which is actually cited as a legend (Horowitz). A cleanup would be good. SEE BELOW.

7. "It remains a mystery just how he created the impression " - highly subjective

EXPLAIN IT THEN.


 * I frequently work with fine pianists, violinists cellists etc ... Although they may be technically stellar, I don't like to deify them since all technique can be taught. It all comes down to talent and hard work.Batonpower (talk) 04:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

CHECK OUT ART TATUM PLAYING YESTERDAYS ON YOUTUBE AND THEN TELL ME IF THAT CAN BE TAUGHT. Kolef88 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.65.55 (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

8. "Only a handful ...have attempted to seriously emulate or challenge Tatum" - "Challenge" is not really appropriate regarding an art form. Batonpower (talk) 16:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

CUTTING CONTESTS USED TO BE PREVALENT IN JAZZ.


 * True, but it still seems harsh in an encyclopedic context. Batonpower (talk) 04:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The acclaim section is a mess and needs a whole rework - almost all the quotes should be thrown out because they're unsourced. I've been meaning to do that ... - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

WHY DON'T YOU REMOVE THE QUOTES THAT YOU THINK ARE UNTRUE, RATHER THAN DELETING THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE UNSOURCED. IF BEING UNSOURCED IS THE TEST, TWO-THIRDS OF WIKIPEDIA IS OUT THE WINDOW. KOLEF88.

Year of birth
A lot of sources say he was born in 1910. Are we sure he was born in 1909? -- JackofOz (talk) 12:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Discography
The seven The Tatum Group Masterpieces are in a weird order; instead of going numerically from numbers 1-7, they seem to be listed haphazardly (6, 7, 4, 2, 3, 1). Was that the order they were released? Red dwarf (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Enough with the "acclaim" section, maybe?
People have done a great job sourcing quotes from other musicians about Tatum's greatness. But I think we're bordering on overkill now: we have 9 or 10 of them. I hope that's about it; it's starting to look repetitive. If a really good one comes along, perhaps we could remove a lesser quote. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

It's just that a couple of contributors seem to question whether there is a consensus about Tatum's greatness, and hopefully providing quotes from a number of preeminent jazz musicians will help put that to rest. Kolef88 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.65.55 (talk) 00:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think its true that Tatum's flat-fingered hand position is common or crucial in the impression that his fingers hardly moved--on the contrary, when his fingers have that imperceptible motion, I find that they are mostly in the classical (curved) posture. Tatum was flat fingered mostly in playing chords, not runs. CDG 8 June 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.206.218.70 (talk) 04:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Filmography
I think it should be mentioned that Art was in at least one film, "The Fabulous Dorseys" I know its only a cameo appearance, but its a note worthy cameo appearance.--Morahman7vn (talk) 18:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Biographical facts
This article needs a lot more information on Tatum's life: facts about where he lived and travelled, where he worked, where and when he recorded, etc.  96.242.113.198 (talk) 02:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Kolef88

Zenph
Shoudn't there be a reference to the claim "met decidedly with the mixed reviews"? 173.95.168.87 (talk) 19:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Ethnocentric?
To 219.75.52.189:      It is not an "ethnocentric tidbit" to mention four caucasian musicians who admired Tatum, particularly when the mention is preceded by reference to over thirty prominent Afro-Americans who influenced or admired the great one. 96.225.77.138 (talk) 12:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)Kolef8896.225.77.138 (talk) 12:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Life and Career - error
"By the age of 19, Tatum was playing with singer Jon Hendricks, also an Ohioan, at the local Waiters' and Bellmens' Club." Tatum was born in 1909. Hendricks was born in 1921. Although they did play together. I don't think it was possible for them to play when Tatum was 19. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.75.254 (talk) 20:10, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Composer
The article says that Tatum was not a composer, but his IMDb page credits him with composing "The Shout." If that's true and there are any other known examples, then I would like to see some mention made of those works even if they're a minor part of his career. Richard K. Carson (talk) 06:44, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

BBC Radio 3 link
I have added to Ext Links a BBC Radio 3 excerpt which was included as part of the BBC Music Showcase: In it Richard Michael, in his "History Of The Piano Pt 3 - Art Tatum", mentions two anecdotes regarding Tatum's phenomenal ear. The first is that if one stood at the bar and dropped a fistful of change, Tatum was reputed to be able to identify the exact amount just from the pitch of the coins falling. The second concerns his meeting with classical master Joseph Horowitz in Horowitz's top floor flat in Manhattan and their "swapping musical notes" on renditions of "Tea For Two". I wonder do any editors have any better (written) sources for these? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:42, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Those are two fairly well-known Tatum anecdotes that can also be found in Too Marvelous For Words, which is cited extensively in the article.24.47.228.216 (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)kolef8824.47.228.216 (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Maybe they should be added by someone who has that source to hand. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Group work
Should discuss the amazing 1955 album of Tatum, Buddy Rich, and Lionel Hampton. The Lionel Hampton Art Tatum Buddy Rich Trio — Preceding unsigned comment added by ResearcherQ (talk • contribs) 01:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

"Other luminaries of the day...". The accuracy of this statement seems dubious?
The statement goes "Other luminaries of the day including Vladimir Horowitz, Arthur Rubinstein, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Leonard Bernstein, Leopold Godowsky and George Gershwin marveled at Tatum's genius..."

While they may have a citation, the source does not verify the accuracy of this bit of information. They only gave hints - Horowitz's meeting with Art Tatum doesn't seem to be given much assurance on the part of Lester's "Too Marvelous For Words". IIRC, the book cites it as only a story, not an actual fact.

Even more dubious goes with the other composers. While Gershwin and Bernstein may have very well admired Tatum (being jazz composers themselves) I can't imagine Rachmaninoff or Godowsky walking into a jazz club with black listeners listening to black music, which was, at that time, considered much inferior to the more 'sophisticated' Western classical that these people composed.

If anyone is assured of the validity of these statements, please inform. I am merely being careful and skeptical. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by LoniousSphere (talk • contribs) 03:30, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Horowitz had more than a meeting with Tatum. There is a well known story about how Horowitz prepared a version of Tea for Two which he played for Tatum.  Then Tatum played the tune.  Horowitz was so astounded that he asked Tatum for a copy of the arrangement, to which Tatum replied that he was just improvising.  Do some research and you will find the history.  Kolef88.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.228.216 (talk) 12:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I know this story, but as I've said, it's quite dubious. Why hadn't Tatum mentioned any meeting with Horowitz? Tatum never claimed to have met (much less befriended) Horowitz in any of his interviews; and I don't think Horowitz ever mentioned Tatum in any book or interview. Isn't this dubious? That people claim they were close friends and played together in jazz clubs despite them not giving even the smallest ounce of evidence of having any acquaintance with each other is enough to dig as much holes into this urban legend as there are in Swiss cheese.
 * So if anyone knows of any strong evidence to support this story, please tell. Thank you! Best of regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LoniousSphere (talk • contribs) 04:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * There was a reasonably well-known US music critic called Henry Pleasants who wrote about jazz. He was quite respected and I think once conducted a much-reported interview with Rachmaninoff. According to the distinguished critic Harold C Schonberg in the introduction to Schonberg's authoritative biography of Horowitz, Pleasants told the story of Horowitz slipping into a nightclub to hear Tatum.  Afterwards Horowitz introduced himself and asked Tatum how long it had taken him to learn Tea For Two. Tatum replied that he had just made it up and Horowitz was suitably astounded and so went home and subsequently worked out his own version, inspired by what he had heard Tatum do (and you can hear Horowitz playing an extract of his Tea For Two on his video "The Last Romantic").  I don't think there's the remotest shred of evidence to suggest that the contact between Tatum and Horowitz ever went any further than that - in short, they had each heard of the other but only met that one time very briefly.  And even this story appears to be based entirely on the testimony of Henry Pleasants, who is presumably very reliable but it seems that the story remains uncorroborated.  Would be very interested to know if anyone knows of any other testimony corroborating Pleasants' story.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.189.80.39 (talk) 12:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * @Lunious -- I find your opinions dubious. It does not appear that you have done much research on the subject.  If you listen to Tatum and if you read and think about the high praise that was heaped upon Tatum by so many, it is not at all "dubious" that musicians like Gershwin and the others would be intrigued and would be equally impressed.  Nevertheless, to assuage your doubts, I have edited the passage to note that the evidence is sketchy.  24.47.228.216 (talk) 14:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)Kolef8824.47.228.216 (talk) 14:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * This article reads like a fan page. I just want to point that out, as someone who is interested in reading about Tatum and thinks he was a great musician, several passages are downright laughable. I don't think citing which would be of much use, as it's quite obvious. There is a lot, and I mean a lot of POV, weasel words, and the like in here. When the header contains something like: "Widely considered the greatest", you already know it's badly flawed. I don't even care if that statement is sourced, it's absurd even if I believe it. Anything can be "sourced", that doesn't mean it belongs in an encyclopedic entry. As a fan of Tatum, I believe this article is actually doing him a disservice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.252.42.161 (talk) 04:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Fan page guy: By your definition, any description that begins with "widely considered one of the greatest" is unbelievable on its face. Was Michael Jordan one of the greatest basketball players?  Was Pavarotti one of the greatest singers?  Was Edison one of the greatest inventors?  Yes, yes you say, but not Tatum.  When the best jazz and classical pianists of his time heaped accolades upon Tatum, and when musicians of today continue to recognize his greatness, that is somehow in your impeccable judgment not credible?  You know what is badly flawed?  Your opinion that these quotes are worthless because "anything can be sourced".   That utterly fails to recognize the quality of the source.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.14.243 (talk) 23:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

"Overblown Terms"
A reader has deleted a number of "overblown" terms, in his opinion, such as phenomenal, one of the greatest, child prodigy, perfect pitch, idolized, and spectacular. I understand the aversion to hyperbole, yet if there was ever a jazz pianist to whom such terms apply, surely it was Tatum. A brief look at the Encyclopedia Britannica reveals that the Russian dancer Nijinsky was phenomenal, as was baseball player Joe DiMaggio, as was Dutch artist Frans Floris, and many others ... but not Tatum? Apparently mathematician Norbert Wiener was a child prodigy, as was poet Louis Zukofsky's son Paul, as was Italian skier Manuela De Centa, and many others ... but not Tatum? If you simply read the tributes that have been given to Tatum by many who were luminaries in their own right, you will reach the inescapable conclusion that Tatum was phenomenal. 24.47.228.216 (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC)Kolef8824.47.228.216 (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

And by the way, not all sources are created equal, so before you discount and delete a citation, weigh the authority of the source. The citation for Tatum being considered the greatest jazz virtuoso did not come from some lone blogger spewing opinions on the internet. The source is Robert Doerschuk's "Giants of Jazz", which is as authoritative as it gets. 24.47.228.216 (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC)Kolef8824.47.228.216 (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

By the way, if you knew anything about music, you would know that "perfect pitch" is not a hyperbolic adjective, but a technical term for the ability to identify the frequency of musical notes without a reference pitch. 24.47.228.216 (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC)Kolef8824.47.228.216 (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC)