Talk:Arthur Eve/GA2

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Hi, I am reviewing this article for GA. In general, the article seems interesting and well references. However, there are prose and other issues that prevent its promotion at this point. Most of them are fairly minor.
 * Examples
 * why link "inmate" to "prison"? Especially since you have just linked to Attica prison right before it.
 * Currently, inmate redirects to prison. The article links to Attica Prison riot. It did not link to Attica Correctional Facility before you mentioned it.  I don't think we can count on another article explaining the term.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Does it explain the word "inmate"? &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 13:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Consider a wiktionary link. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Done.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "He is remembered as a champion of the American family as well as for service to the New York State Black ..." - To start the section this way makes it seem as if this is his obituary. In fact, all references to "he is remembered" seem out of place for a living person.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Protests caused then-New York Governor ..." don't think hyphen is appropriate here.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "In New York State since the 1970s, ..." - Should be: Since the 1970s in New York State,
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:53, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Eve Higher Education Opportunity Program to enable students, who may not be able to attend college due to educational and financial circumstances." - no comma after students.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "New York City Mayor Ed Koch and Griffin who were both first elected as Mayors of New York State's largest two cities in 1977 ..." - Should be "each" instead of "both".
 * I'll take your word for it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "This sometimes brought him opposition in his own pursuits as it did later that same year." - Clarify, as it is an awkward sentence.
 * Clarified.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole "Deputy Speaker 1979–2003" section is choppy. Can you combine some paras for better flow?
 * I copyedited the section, although I did not combine paragraphs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Was Eve Puerto Rican? I am wondering as there are several references to the Puerto Rican lobby.
 * I say he is African American. He is not Puerto Rican.  The lobby is a joint lobby of Blacks and Puerto Ricans.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just asking as being African American does not rule out being Puerto Rican, as Puerto Rican is not a race. &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 13:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What did he do after he retired? Has his life stopped for the last many years?
 * These are examples. I will continue to read through the article, and may make some copy editing changes on my own, which you are free to revert if you do not agree with them.


 * You do not know where he was born? It seems strange to leave this out of a biography of a person who is still alive. Surely, this must be known.
 * He was born in New York city according to the infobox, which is an artifact from prior editorial work by others.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There does not seem to be enough about his personality, anything personal about the subject, to warrant being a biography. Perhaps it should be something else. You have only described the outlines of Eve's political career.
 * Maybe you haven't read the section about his family yet.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did read it. It does not contain his place of birth or anything about his personality, personal style etc. There is nothing in this article, aside from a recitation of his political accomplishments to give an idea of him as a person. The personal section has more about the accomplishments of his children that about him as a person, or personal facts such as how he met his wife, the length of his marriage, his wife's life span, hobbies and interests outside of politics, personal philosophies etc. - these are suggestions. What was he like as a man? &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 13:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The media is very sparse on his personal life outside of politics.  I have known him personally for about 30 years and he invited me to go to church with him when I was in town about three or four years ago.  Before my dad passed in 2003, he use to be Eve's computer vendor.  He stocked his Buffalo and Albany offices when he use to sell computers.  I know things about him personally and his family that I would like to put in the article, but can not find anything that is not OR.  I will dig some more in the articles database I am using and see what I can find though.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have now added just about everything I could find about his post retirement life.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Regards, &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 00:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See Charles A. Wickliffe &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 20:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Great article. Much better than the one presented here. Possibly due to better subject matter as well as better sources.  I have no hardcover sources.  I am just working from newpapers for the most part.  I don't know how well he has been chronicle'd in texts covering the history of Buffalo and New York State.  Again, I will be looking further into my newpaper database.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * It is much improved by the addition of his activities after his political life ended. I would suggest a little rewriting of the lead to include this and lessen the unremitting focus on just his political career.
 * "In 1968, Eve delayed construction on the State University of New York – at Buffalo's Amherst Campus in order to extract an agreement that New York State and the unions ..." - I may be naive, but does this action fall under the duties of an assemblyman?
 * Politicians hold up funding all the time.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please go through the various sections and reduce the choppiness by combining paragraphs and improving the flow of the prose. The sections are made of short paragraphs that are repetitiously of similar size and are short. This is monotonous for the reader and hinders the flow of ideas. There should be continuity in the prose, not the listing of events in short paragraphs. This should be easy to remedy.
 * I don't feel too many paragraphs should rightly be combined, but in two places I was able to combine paragraphs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Evangelist goes to a disambig page. What kind of evangelist did he become and what were is actions and an evangelist? This is a rather important statement to come out of no where.
 * I have dabbed the link. For further detail, I can speak of my personal knowledge from attending church with him at a church that he helped to secure financing for, but I have nothing that is not WP:OR.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am having a hard time understanding the purpose of the text directly under "Political career" as it seems to be a summary of his career, much like the lead, and repeat much of what is there. Perhaps that section should be integrated into the lead instead of existing solo.
 * I have rearranged this to be included in a legacy section.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I do think this article is on its way to GA status.

&mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 15:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Additional comments
 * The article focuses too much on the subjects political life. It is not a biogragraphy.
 * I have no access to any sources that can broaden the article any further.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The lead fails WP:LEAD, a crucial element for GA
 * How so.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you read WP:LEAD, you will see your article does not follow it. &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 00:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Legacy" section is subsumed under all the political information, making it seem even less that he had a life outside a description of his political accomplishtment.
 * Would you like the legacy section moved, deleted or turned into its own section rather than a subsection?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ideally, the Legacy section would refer to all his work, not just the political. &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 00:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The structure of the article, with the "Personal" tacked on at the end, is faulty.
 * Where would you like this section?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Most biography articles start out with "Personal life" or similar at the start of the article. &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 00:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is my evaluation. If you are not willing to change the structure and emphasis of the article, I cannot pass it. &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 20:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC) I have asked Malleus Fatuorum to take over this review, as I believe he can possibly be of more help to you on the issues regarding the elements necessary to a biography. He can offer you more suggestions. Regards, &mdash; Mattisse (Talk) 00:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Note

Where we are now
I thank both TonyTheTiger and Mattisse for the good work so far, but I think that substantial work still remains to be done if this article is to meet the GA criteria.


 * From the lead: "Arthur O. Eve (born March 23, 1933) is a retired American politician in the U.S. state of New York". What does "in the U.S. state of New York" mean exactly here? Living in? Represented? Something else?
 * Is it clear now.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I still don't get it. Why not just drop "in the U.S. state of New York"? It seems to be redundant now anyway after your additions. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Legacy section just doesn't work at all for me. What does this mean, for instance? "He has a legacy as a champion of the American family as well as for service to the New York State Black and Puerto Rican Legislative Caucus and on the committee of public officials who attempted to resolve a conflict at the Attica State Prison." What is this legacy that's being claimed? That's what this section ought to be telling us.


 * Echoing something Mattisse said above, the narrative here is very disjointed, and would be better laid out chronologically. The article starts off in 1968, for instance, by which time Eve had been an Assemblyman for a year, with an unexplained blocking of funds. I'd suggest restructuring with an initial Early life section telling us something about his life before politics, using some of the material that presently seems just tagged on as aterthought in the Personal section. A fair amount of that material looks like it would be more appropriate for the legacy section in any event, such as the foundation stuff.
 * I have moved the family paragraph of the former personal section to the beginning of the main text. This contains the only pre-political information that I have.  The main political section is chronological to the best of my ability.  The family section is chronological within itself.  Let me know what other text rearrangements would improve the article in your eyes.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:19, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not too thrilled about some aspects of the prose, in particular consecutive sentences beginning with "He ..."; even in the lead there are two consecutive sentences beginning with "During ...".
 * I am open to your criticism and am willing to take this to PR if you remain unsatisified. I have edited the above repetitions.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * From Deputy Speaker 1979–2003: "... but the Black and Puerto Rican Caucus was not unified in their efforts to endorse a candidate." So is caucus singular or plural?
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * From Deputy Speaker 1979–2003:"... Eve continued to voice opposition against tax cutting in an effort to balance the state's budget." This is ambiguous; Was Eve's opposition to "tax cutting", or was it to "tax cutting in an effort the balance the state's bufget"?
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The lead needs to do a better job of summarising the article. There's no mention of Eve's legacy, for instance, and I'm unclear on the relevance of this: "During his years of service, he developed numerous allies throughout the Democratic Party in Buffalo, Albany and Washington, D.C. such as Charles B. Rangel, Sheldon Silver, Al Gore and Bill Clinton." So he had political allies, so what? All politicians do.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. I am not so sure that this removal paints a better picture of the guy. Not every politician can get over half of their children jobs for the Clinton's and the Gore's.  This guy was the highest ranking black politician in New York State politics for 24 years.  He is not just another politician with political influence.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised that the article has got this far with glaring prose problems such as "Third-place primmary finisher Leslie Foschio threatened to enter the general eletion ...", and would suggest it needs a very careful read through for similar errors.


 * From Political career: "He feels that Rockefeller made the conscious decision to escalate the conflict ...". Need to be careful with tenses here and in similar places. That comment is sourced to a 1989 newspaper article. Is that how Eve still feels 20 years later? How do we know?
 * Corrected.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:36, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * From Assemblyman 1967–1979:"That primary had a record turnout of 77–80% in the Black community, the highest ever for an African American community in the Northeast, and surpassed nationwide only by same demographics turnout that elected Carl Stokes as mayor of Cleveland in 1967." I don't understand that at all.


 * From retirement: "He became an evangelist." Thrown in like a hand grenade a propos of nothing and unsupported by the citation.

--Malleus Fatuorum 19:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Summary
I'd like to wrap this review up, so in the interests of clarity these are the points I think are still waiting to be addressed:


 * From retirement: "He became an evangelist." Thrown in like a hand grenade a propos of nothing and unsupported by the citation.
 * Why do you say unsupported by the citation. See "former Assemblyman-turned-evangelist Arthur Eve".  I don't know where to put this sentence, but it is no more out of the blue and unrelated to other retirement issues than is the fact that a school named a conference hall to him.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I'd missed that phrase in the newspaper article, but it simply raises another question in my mind. An evangelist for what? Did he take on the role of evangelist within the Latter Day Saints, for instance? If this is a reference to his religious beliefs, then why is this the first we hear of them? If that phrase-in-passing is the only evidence for Eve's evangelism then I'd suggest dropping it until further information comes to light. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That phrase is sufficient backup for my WP:OR of him taking me to his church.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * So you see nothing wrong with this?
 * Did you see above that my family and his family have known each other for thirty years, have gone on vacations to places like Letchworth State Park, etc. This sentence corroborates my personal knowledge and experience.  I know he is involved in building up a church.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have expected someone with your experience to be familiar with wikipedia's requirements for reliable sourcing. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "He continued to serve on the Pataki task force that had been created in March 2001 to compensate family members of the 11 state workers killed in the 1971 Attica prison riots, and he remained active in discussions regarding the allocation of the state sales tax. He became an evangelist. In February 2008, the Brighter Choice Charter School for Boys in Albany dedicated its new conference hall in his honor."
 * That four-word sentence seems to fit into the flow of the paragraph quite well to you? --Malleus Fatuorum 19:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is that I don't see that creating another one sentence paragraph would be an improvement.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:41, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm satisfied that everything else either has already been dealt with or can be easily dealt with.
 * From Assemblyman 1967–1979:"That primary had a record turnout of 77–80% in the Black community, the highest ever for an African American community in the Northeast, and surpassed nationwide only by same demographics turnout that elected Carl Stokes as mayor of Cleveland in 1967." I don't understand that at all.
 * It was the highest in the Northeast, but Clevland is considered Midwest.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Let me be clearer; what does the phrase "only by same demographics turnout" mean? (Why is there a "the" apparently missing in that phrase?) What is this (plural) "demographics"? How could it have been surpassed if the later one was the same? Whatever is meant here needs to be said more clearly.
 * I think I have resolved your concern.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The last two sentences of the first paragraph of what I renamed to Political themes (Legacy just didn't work at all for me) need to be moved somewhere more appropriate if the information is important enough to be included.
 * I moved one of the sentences, but I am not sure where to move the other sentence to. Any advice?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's really a part of his political career, which is where I've moved it. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:36, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It has happened in his retirement. Why would you put it in his political career.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My patience is running out. "Eve served as a delegate to the Democratic National Convention from New York in 1972, 1976, 1984, 1996, and 2000." So when did he retire exactly? There are two choices now. Either you fix the problems that I've identified or you don't. If you do, then I will list this article as a GA; if you don't then I will fail it, and you are then free to take it to GAR. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:52, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is your question whether he retired in 2002 or 2003? The election for his seat was in November 2002 and his term ended in January 2003, I presume.  He announced his retirement before January and it is unclear if he remained in his position until the end of his term.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In the absence of other information we will assume he remained in office until the end of his term.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have valid arguments against the article, I will go to PR rather than GAR. I just don't understand why you want one sentence paragraphs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. I will now formally state that for the reasons I have given above I do not believe that this article meets the GA criteria, and consequently I am declining to list it. This review is now closed. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:20, 20 June 2009 (UTC)