Talk:Arthur Friedenreich

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 January 2020 and 14 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jrklink.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 January 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cbkerr.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 14:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled
Someone are insisting put in the Romário article that this guy made more than 1000 goals. This is a false statement both in Brazil and FIFA statistics. --Canadian Eclat 15:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Correct. Romario scored 968 goals (RSSSF), or 929 (FIFA), or 925 (Placar magazine). Even the (at least) reliable Brazilian magazine estimates a lot lower than 1,000. Γεώργιος Τερζής 2 (talk) 22:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

And Arthur friedenreich scored 1,329 goals recognized by FIFA, so someone can use it officially everywhere. Γεώργιος Τερζής 2 (talk) 22:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Friedenreich top scorer
I just wanted to point out that Pele comes second to A. Friedenreich when it comes to the number of goals scored. According to the following article, Friedenreich scored 1329 goals, and Pele "only" 1281. http://in.sports.yahoo.com/sportz/football/legends/legends_pele.html If anyone is willing to verify this through other sources it would be great.
 * Stop this false statement. This is not recognized either by FIFA and CBF.


 * Who can say it's false? Friedenreich played in a time of terrible record keeping. That makes his records unclear. Neither FIFA nor CBF have falsified the records, at most they can say it's unverified, which is all they do. Facts failsify statements, not doubt, and the facts are unavailable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.157.214 (talk) 21:00, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is my first comment on a Wikipedia page, and I don't know how should I proceed, but... I know the whole thing about Friedenreich. Friedenreich was famous at the time (and for decades after his retirement) for having scored 1329 thorughout his career, that being an absolute world record. HOWEVER, we are talking about the first decades of the twentieth century, and that means not only less competitive games (that's obvious) but also not so many football statician as today. In fact, the number of goals scored was kept by his father (or some member of his family, I can't remember right now). Moreover, the original papers in which he noted Friedenreich's goals have been lost and it seems now that "1329" is a copy error (the original number being "1239", still an incredible number). THERE'S ANOTHER PROBLEM, ANYWAY: this huge number (1329 or 1239) counts not only competitive goals, but also (no doubt) goals scored in unofficial friendly with his club team, goals scored in friendly summer tournament and all sort of things. WE CAN CONCLUDE (see for example the website www.rsssf.com) that Friedenreich was certainly a great goalscorer (the greatest of his days) but he did not score anything near 1000 goals in competitive / official matches (which are obviously the only ones which should be taken in account). He did score, however, some hundreds of goals (among these, 354 in more or less 320 games in the Campeonato Paulista, see www.iffhs.de). SPEAKING ON THE CONFRONTATION BETWEEN FRIEDENREICH AND ROMARIO... Romario and Pelé are two of the greatest goalscorers of the history of football. They each scored more than 700 goals in competitive / official matches, which is an astonishing number and rank them certainly among the first five goalscorers (in terms of goals in all competition) in the history of football. Other players who have scored around or more than 700 goals in competitive matches should be Josef Bican, Ferenc Puskas and Gerd Muller (see, among the other website, again www.rsssf.com). It seems only obvious that only goals scored in competitive / official matches should be taken into account, and not unofficial friendly matches or unofficial friendly summer tournament played by club teams. HOWEVER, INEXPLICABLY, the "official" records for Pelé (the one also accepted by FIFA) counts also hundreds of unofficial goals, like goals scored in unofficial friendly tournaments with Santos and even goals scored with military teams. This total number is around 1200, and make (of course) Pelé the greatest goalscorer of all time. For Romario the matter is similar: he has scored something more than 700 goals in official matches (all competition), but in his list he has counted tons of goals scored in UNOFFICIAL games (club teams friendlies and so on...). The total is around 1000 goals, but, as for Pelé, it is pointless to count all goals scored in unofficial friendlies. If we had to count all these unofficial goals, players like Gerd Muller and Ferenc Puskas would had scored certainly more than him. So, FIFA, please don't accept all of Pelé unofficial goals as official...

I hope I've been useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.77.21.198 (talk) 16:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Negro ou Afro-brasileiro? (Black or Afro-Brazilian?)
Google for Arthur Friedenreich "afro-brasileiro":



about 101 Portuguese pages for Arthur Friedenreich "afro-brasileiro"

Google for Arthur Friedenreich negro:



about 2,030 Portuguese pages for Arthur Friedenreich negro.

Systematically using the verbiage "afro-brasileiro" instead of negro is POVed: it is the Point of View that Brazilian culture is not essentially different from North-American culture, and that American usage can be employed in explaining it without further clarification and qualification. In this way, Brazil become a mere intellectual suburb of the United States, a country with no cultural autonomy, or - like our "hermanos" would love to point - a pack of macaquitos, always trying (and failing) to copy the intellectual fads in the metropolis. Ninguém (talk) 00:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The words "Afro-brasileiro" (Afro-Brazilian) or "Afrodescendente" (African-descended) are also widely used in Brazil to describe people of African descent. They're not mere copies of the "American culture", they are good words to describe Brazilians who have African roots, specially those who are not or who do not see themselves as "blacks" (mixed-race people), but who do see themseves as of African descent.

For many decades (and it still happens today), to be considered "black" in Brazil was offensive. That's why words such as "mulato", "moreno", "moreno claro", "moreno escuro", "marrom bom-bom" appered. The use of the words "Afro-Brasileiro" or "negro" comes from the need to rescue this black identity that was, for centuries, marginalized and oppressed. It's not a surprise that only 7% of Brazilians reported to be "black" to the Census, but scholars report that the real figure may be as high as 50% of Brazilians.

Arthur Friedenreich was half black, then he was Afro-Brazilian. Many sources described him as black, because he suffered the racism because of his black roots. The fact that he was half white did not change the racist situations he faced, even though his white roots later allowed him to play for the Brazilian National Team, because the President at that time, Epitácio Pessoa, was only allowing white player to play for Brazil outside the country, and Friedenreich was the only non-white person there.

About the "macaquitos" word that you claimed that Argentine use to describe Brazilians who follow an "American culture", I never heard about it, unless from people who like to stigmatize other nationalities, claiming they all are the same, they act the same and they use the same pejorative words to describe others. I have been to Argentina myself, and nobody called me "macaquito". They all treated me well and were very respectful. Opinoso (talk) 15:44, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, racism does exist in Brazil. That's one of the reasons, by the way, that not many Blacks are college students in Santa Catarina.


 * No one is discussing Friedenreich's being half-White. This is irrelevant to this discussion. I didn't edit this article to say he was a mulatto, brown, "moreno", "moreninho", or "marrom-bombom". I edit it to say he was Black, instead of "Afro-Brazilian".


 * "Afro-brasileiro" is not widely used in Brazil, and is actively resisted by many, whit good reasons (they are not African, for starters). When used, besides, it is in reference to things, not people (cultura afro-brasileira, arte afro-brasileira, etc.). The word "afro-descendente" has indeed started to be used, mainly by government agencies, and, yes, this is a copycat of American uses. That's the problem here. Using an equivalent of the American English "African American" misleads American users, who will tend to understand Brazilian approach to race under the same categories that are operative in the United States, but not in Brazil.


 * I appreciate that your experience in Argentina was a nice one. Mind you, I have been to England, and nobody shot me in the neck while trying to use the Subway. It doesn't mean that it didn't happen to Jean-Charles de Meneses, or that I can't mention that episode as an instance of police racism in England.


 * So, sorry, but nothing racist about that remark, nothing worth of taking it to ANI. Ninguém (talk) 00:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * By the way, what about engaging in discussion in Talk:White Brazilian? If possible, without making comments about Calabria, my grandparents, Portuguese nationalism, and Phone books? Ninguém (talk) 00:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Funny, because you criticize that we are following an "American" standard of race, but you are the one claiming that Friedenreich was "black". Few Brazilians would see him as black, but as "moreno", "mulato" or "marrom bombom". Only by American standards he would be black, than you are the one following an American culture here, none else is.

Moreover, Jean Charles de Menezes was not killed because he was Brazilian, because the policemen did not even know his nationality. He could be of any other nationality. Then, I do not even know what Menezes's case, the "macaquitos" word that you claim Argentine use to describe Brazilians or the Black students in Santa Catarina have to do with Arthur Friedenreich. Wikipedia is not a Forum to discuss this kind of subject. Please, stop using talk pages as Foruns.

''Stay objective: Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their own different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how the different points of view obtained from secondary sources should be included in the article, so that the end result is neutral and objective (which may mean including conflicting viewpoints). The best way to present a case is to find properly referenced material (for an alternative forum for personal opinions, see the Wikibate proposal).'' Opinoso (talk) 17:18, 16 May 2009 (UTC)