Talk:Aryan Valley/Archive 2

Brokpa are not subgroup of shina people
Please refer many researchers studies , Brokskat is believed to have a very diverged dialect of shina, however brokpa people never considered The other Dardic people as their kinsmen as cited by British explorer.

Don't just reply on one book, consult many searches and analysis side by side. I wMinaro123 (talk) 16:30, 3 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Brokpas can claim anything; they are claiming to be Aryans since a couple of decades and might claim to be Martians in a few years. However, they are not a RS. I am relying on scholars like Nicholas among others. Whom are your relying upon? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Reply:
 * Brokpa Never claimed to be Aryan at all.
 * Since the many of the brokpa people has blue eyes ,talk and blonde hair and European feature.
 * That's the reason many scholars have claimed that either they are descendent of Alexander army ,or they might be Aryan who migrated down a long time.
 * However ,the ancient folk song of Brokpa have a story about their migration place, it has stated that they have came from Rome and settled done in Gilgit, since the people of gilgit got jealous of their wealth ,they people in Gilgit have a killing plot ,and thus how they have migrated to hill part of these Dha hanu district and later to The Lower indus river valley of the dha hanu district.
 * However ,Many researcher claimed that there were few people already settled there already who were Dards .and later the migarted people from Rome and the already settled area makes brokpa present population.
 * I will post here the origin of Brokpa according to the reliable scholars  and quote here with reference before doing my edits on wikepedia post about its origin and story revolving around it Minaro123 (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Brokpa claimed to be Aryan at all. - This is alternate reality and I will be opening a thread at AE. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Elena Bashir, who teaches at SALC, UoChicago, is widely hailed as among the foremost experts on (so-called) Dardic languages; besides, the volume in question is widely held to be an authoritative review on the subject. So, please present equally reliable sources; not journalists or random scholars or ... TrangaBellam (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Elena Bashir, who teaches at SALC, UoChicago, is widely hailed as among the foremost experts on (so-called) Dardic languages; besides, the volume in question is widely held to be an authoritative review on the subject. So, please present equally reliable sources; not journalists or random scholars or ... TrangaBellam (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)


 * van Beek is an anthropologist; he did his PhD thesis on Ladakhi low-politics and teaches at Aarhus University. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * van Beek is an anthropologist; he did his PhD thesis on Ladakhi low-politics and teaches at Aarhus University. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Showing the Brokpa is a subgroup of shina people is unfair and not a reality. I am busy for few days as I am travelling for a Important meeting. If it's possible please read all research book ok brokpa and the cited the sources. If you couldn't do that ,then fine ,i will come back and cited will prevail a truth .Minaro123 (talk) 19:16, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure. There is no deadline.TrangaBellam (talk) 04:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think Nicolaus (2015) is reliable on the part that Dha hanu was occupied in 10 century by brokpa as cited in a historical section .The region was  occupied much before than probably much than before than 1 AC. that cited by many of the other Anthropologiet,histrographer etc . There are general accepted theories that Brokpa were the first one to settle Ladakh .I will  read other book  and will correct it .Minaro123 (talk)
 * Do whatever you feel like except removing reliable sources or using fringe sources to push non-NPOV content. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Bhan's Thesis
I finished reading it, and I am mighty impressed. Esp. the parts about the construction of Brokpa identity while situated between the orthodox cultures of Islam and Buddhism. Need to see what, if anything, can be added to this article. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:05, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Take the common view after consulting the various scholar. There are other author anthropologiet whose views are different from the Bhan . It is a policy of wikepedia to make a common and neutral view Minaro123 (talk) 06:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Err, okay? TrangaBellam (talk) 06:29, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:37, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Aryan valley route map.jpg

Independent Country

 * 1)  writes (30 December 2022): "The time", a qualifier inserted by Elinruby, evidently refers to the year of Shaw's visit, mentioned in the previous line as 1876. Can  quote the particular line/paragraph from Shaw's article that led to such a conclusion? Or were  simply copy-editing (w/o consulting the source) and trying to make the prose more readable, which would be okay.TrangaBellam (talk) 06:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * No. You are obviously not here to build an encyclopedia and you have already wasted a lot of people's time and you need to be banned from this topic. Elinruby (talk) 07:51, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That does not answer my question. It is all the more important because Minaro123 claims that our article shall emphasize upon the "independence" of the region.TrangaBellam (talk) 08:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

This (imprecise) claim has now made to the lead. Three sources are cited:
 * Shaw (1878) — A paragraph is quoted where the Brokpas told Shaw that, after a war between Sliigar and Ladak, when their country was occupied by the Ladak army, the Lamas converted them. — SYNTH issues notwithstanding the unreliability of dated colonial-era sources.
 * Vohra (1982) — An ethnographer, documenting the oral history of the region; he blends in some historical factoids. Hard to delineate. Not an excellent source; see Bhan's critique.
 * Kloos - He notes uncertainty about the date when Dha Hanu became part of the Ladakhi kingdom; imposes a terminus ad quem of c. early sixteenth century, and comments in a footnote that the region "seems" to have retained temporary independence by oppurtunistic partnership with Ladakh or Baltistan. Again SYNTH issues and an inaccurate simplification. TrangaBellam (talk) 08:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * On why SYNTH is problematic:
 * Shaw's informers dated the battle to 40 or 50 years before his visit. So, Dah-Hanu can be perceived to be independent till c. early nineteenth century. Kloos' date is c. early sixteenth century. The difference is only about 300 years! TrangaBellam (talk) 08:57, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Whether the exact date is unsure to Kloss, however ,Rohit vohra and other shaw mentioned that the region was independent region/country until Ladakhi kingdom rule it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minaro123 (talk • contribs)
 * Shaw did not mention that the region was independent; his informers told him that after a war between Sliigar and Ladak, [] their country was occupied by the Ladak army. Why don't you read what the sources say and other editors write at the t/p, than trying to have sources conform to what you wish to have them say? TrangaBellam (talk) 09:00, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Shaw was the first one to inform about these region, Shaw have mentioned that their country ( Dha hanu country) was occupied by a Ladak army. It concludes that dha hanu country was not occupied by Ladak army before that .It must have been independent .Minaro123 (talk) 09:06, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That is an untenable conclusion; as Kloos notes, Brokpas appear to have pitted Baltistan and Ladakh against one another since long, trying to secure some nominal independence. It is not unexpected that armies of both sides had occupied Dah-Hanu in different times. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ROHIT vohra have explicitly said about the independent of dha hanu region in detail ,he is a Anthropologiest, however Kloss is a respected author ,but he is not an anthropologiest ,he collected every available sources and made a conclusion. The Shaw and Rohit vohra should be considered here  Minaro123 (talk) 09:23, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It was you who had cited Kloss; not me. Now that I evidence how Kloss does not support your line, you ask of me to discard him! In favor of a conclusion synthesized from a 150 year old colonial document (Shaw). I am afraid that is not how it works. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Why don't you consider Rohit Vohra 's research, just because he cited that dha hanu was an independent kindom until ladakhi kingdom ruled.i don't know why you are against the dha hanu regions historic important region ,just because vohra supported the statement of dha hanu region ,you are  discarded him .Minaro123 (talk) 09:32, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not discarding Kloss, he himself have written in the section of "dha hanu region" page number :19, that " No doubt ,the account offered here is both superficial and incomplete, both due to the reason of space and available material". That's the reason I am not considering Kloss especially in the topic of dha hanu region . However,Shaw and anthropologiest Rohit vohra both are realible source .Minaro123 (talk) 09:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Then, why have you cited him? Anyway, for all practical purposes, you accept there is no source other than Vohra. Nice; I will post some quotes from Vohra's monograph. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:44, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * There must have more source to cited these if we dig into the history Minaro123 (talk) 09:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Sadly, I do not have crystallballs but look forward to the sources. I do see that you removed Klaus after this exchange but added back after a few minutes. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:19, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Bhan on Vohra:Minaro123, these are my own notes. Please do not feel compelled to reply.The Brogpas might have been suzerains of some part of Ladakh at some point of time, including Aryan Valley, centuries ago. But what does it even mean to claim that the "Aryan Valley was [] independent until it was absorbed by the Ladakhi kingdom (wikilinked to Maryul!)". TrangaBellam (talk) 10:48, 11 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Even if I accept Vohra at face value, he writes,
 * Our summary is too simplistic. As Kloss noted, these people were allying with the major regional powers on an oppurtunistic basis and pitting them against one another while tring to secure a nominal independence for their own principality. The strategy is hardly unprecedented in the annals of S. Asian history; c. f. Gaeboo Achyok. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

From the book of Vohra ,it is clear that Dha hanu region inhabited by the Buddhist Dards remained outside the annexationist interests of either of the two kingdoms and their Chiefs Gapo and Gil Singe remained in power until the 17th century.

It means that , Until 17 century Dha hanu region was completely ruled independently by their Dard chief and that means that It was an independent region until Ladakhi kingdom ruled over it. And Kloos is quoating vohra and he has given the reference of Vohra after the statement he said about Dha hanu region being ruled independent. Kloss himself is relying on vohra.

Conclusion: It is generally accepted that the region was ruled independent by their Dard chief until the Maryul kingdom ruled over it. And these should be emphasis because it would show that these region has a historical importance. The statements: Aryan valley started as a 'tourist designation' doesn't deserve to be in a lead .It should rather go in a name section of the articles, because the articles is not about the name of Aryan valley, the articles is about a particular region that is Dha hanu ,which is nowadays popularly known  as Aryan valley.

The lead deserve three thing : Since Aryan valley is a geographical area: 1: The lead should have a geographical Boundary and location of Aryan valley. 2: The lead should emphasis on the   historical importance of the Dha hanu region that it was ruled independently by their Dard chief until 17 century. 3: the lead should have a village of Aryan valley Apart from lead : There should be a history section: In which the history about region should be added there, Ancient history ( oral history) , medical history and modern history. 4: The thoughts about Brokpa being Aryan should be in a section called " Identity of Aryan". Cited by many famous anthropologiest. Minaro123 (talk) 04:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC) Minaro123 (talk) 03:23, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Gapo and Gil Singe
, Please note this sentence in Vohra's paper, p.75:

We can't simply put folk tradition as established history. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

First point : You have written : 'The region is believed to have been under the rule of Dard cheif at khalatse until the 11 century'. Objection: Yes, I agree that vohra have written that there was a Dard cheif at khalatse until the 12 century. But Nowhere it is written that the Dha hanu region was under the rule of Khalatse .

Second point : Vohra clearly stated that: The region inhabited by the Buddhist Dard was ruled independent by the Brokpa cheif Gapo and Gil singe until the 17 century. And folk Traditional will be treated as a Established history if there is no other written source , Vohra and Kloos have clearly stated  that  there is no written history about Dha hanu region. The hanu is first time mentioned when the Hanu become important due to the war between shigar and Ladakh. Conclusion and Final solution We should add 'Dha hanu region is believed to have been  ruled independent by the Brokpa cheif Gapo and Gil singe until the 17 century. We will use  beleive  because it is a  folk tradition'. As There is no other sources written about Dha hanu region in Ladakh ancient history  historicall rule as cited by the Famous author .Minaro123 (talk)
 * I will remove the reference to Khalatse.
 * We can't write traditions as if they are established facts. But there may be a case for something about their autonomous existence until Sengge Namgyal's time. I will think of some wording. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Vohra wrote:
 * This is the basis of the current statement in the lead.
 * However, double-checking the sources, the citation 8c (Francke) doesn't say anything about Utpala. Checking the Chronicles, I find that the Balti places mentioned are to the west of Skardu. They could have been reached by the Suru Valley. So there is no evidence of him disturbing the Brokpa land.
 * Naglug's concern was securing the trade route via the Suru Valley. So there is no likelihood of him having ventured north of Khalatse. So, I guess you are right. The 12th century termini doesn't check out. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:01, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It is not just a folk traditions ,But more like a established history fact, because:
 * 1: There are still land in the name of Cheif Gapo and Gil singe in Dha hanu region as mentioned by Scholar vohra ,
 * 2:The ruined Palace of Brokpa cheif  Gil singe and Gapo is still there in dha and Garkon village.
 * 3: The rule of singay namgail is in recent past, it is not a long time ago ,so it must have been true.
 * Request: i kindly request you to kindly add the statement in the lead that i have added before because it gives a historical importance to Dha hanu region.
 * Thank youMinaro123 (talk) 03:50, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Request: i kindly request you to kindly add the statement in the lead that i have added before because it gives a historical importance to Dha hanu region.
 * Thank youMinaro123 (talk) 03:50, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

EXTREMELY RUDE AND NEGATIVE STATEMENT about these Region needs to be deleted
1:The history page of Aryan valley has a more than 80% critisim about the people of these region, Instead of talking genuinely about history of these region ,rather it talks about the opinion of anthropologiest  who hold negative thought regarding the identity of Brokpa  being Aryan. It immediately needs to be alter or deleted and instead the History of these region should be added. The content are written such in a way that would make the Aryan valley look bad.

2: the names started as "Tourist designation should go in Name section insted of main lead.The main lead should have a geographical boundary and Historical importance, as like the other articles about region as we see in wikepedia.

The following sentences in history section looks extremely rude and not a neutral view as per the guidance of wikepedia. The statements are:

1: It appears that over time, the Brokpas imbibed such characterizations to the extent of tracing a descent from Alexander's army.

2: During the 2003 elections to the Kargill Hill Council, they claimed representation to the minority seats on the basis of their Aryan identity among other factors; networking user-names with "Aryan".[web 1] Mona Bhan, a Professor of South Asian Studies and Anthropology at Syracuse University, finds such ahistorical racialising of linguistic and cultural traits to have persisted even in modern ethnography on the Brokpas.

3:Bhan remarks that the discourse on Aryanism of the Brokpas has become "unwittingly aligned with the recent surge of right-wing Hindutva groups in Kargil" who leverage their supposed indigeneity to "validate their hold on India's disputed territory." Minaro123 (talk) 10:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


 * TrangaBellam (talk) 15:55, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Reply: When there is a genuine history and more reliable sources of these region, it is injustice to write only about the critisim on the Aryan identify of Brokpa. The Aryan valley is a geographical region and it deserve to have a more discussion on geographical section and  history about the region . Please respect the policy of wikepedia . Thank you Minaro123 (talk) 16:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add the "genuine history" but so far, your editorial activity has been limited to tampering with well-sourced content under dubious grounds. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:41, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

MINT
These newspaper is not a reliable newspaper sources as per wikepedia relaible source list. It is surprising ,yet it has taken account to cite the most controversial fact in Aryan valley region. Though there are many famous Historian, anthropologiest, researcher out there talking about them yet the editor choose to cite these which doesn't even have a mention in the wikepedia sourcing list. https://www.livemint.com/Home-Page/retY51tHFRe5ZH6NeiU7QI/Who-went-where-when-On-the-trail-of-the-first-people-in-In.html, These newspaper has criticised the inhabitants of Aryan valley region. Minaro123 (talk) 11:05, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


 * We do not have any exhaustive list of reliable sources. You can open a thread at WP:RSN about how Mint (newspaper) and Open (Indian magazine) are "unreliable sources". Regards, TrangaBellam (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * We have reliable source like BBC ,the hindu and the newyork times, aljezerra and please stop making excuses to cite a bad source which only critise about Aryan valley. Leave it on me ,i will cite with reliable source and will follow neutral policy ,please refrain adding an critisim.Minaro123 (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That is a strange assertion and request. May I know the particular policy/guideline that guides you? TrangaBellam (talk) 15:26, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Endonym
Dear, The reason for name should go in Endonym section. And the lead doesn't deserve a reason and meaning of these name. There is a Endonym or Name section to talk about such thing ,. Aryan valley is a geographical term and Geography, boundary of these region should be added in a lead. The present article had a redudency of the same data that is  reason of "Aryan valley " and their genetic study. The same thing has been told few times. The sentence are : 1:The current name originated in the tourism industry c. 2010 as an allusion to the Brokpas, the local inhabitants, being the primordial Aryans.[web 1][note 4][note 2] However, the existence of any such linkage has been refuted by anthropologists and geneticists. 2:'''A genetic analysis of the Brokpas, published in 2019, did not find any link with the Aryans. 3:The name "Aryan Valley" was created within this discourse on tourism. Thank you The redudency should be deleted the meaning of name should be added in Emdoym section. Minaro123 (talk) 17:16, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


 * TrangaBellam (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Reply: The Aryan valley is a rename of the Historical Dha hanu region or Brokyul in Tibetan .It was ruled independently by Brokpa chiefs . And this is the principal reason Aryan valley is notable . Aryan valley is notable because it is a real name of a geographical region which has a boundary. Thank you Minaro123 (talk) 17:56, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you a chat-bot? TrangaBellam (talk) 18:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Reply: please have a genuine discussion instead of Talking irrelevant things here, please respect the talk page policies,and keep it strictly to do productive discussion here Minaro123 (talk) 18:14, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Minaro123, you "[should] have a genuine discussion instead of Talking irrelevant things here." The lead summarizes the article. Trangabellam restored revision 1134420397 diff, edit-summary Restored revision 1134420397 by TrangaBellam (talk): You do not have consensus for independent at the t/p, afais. Please discuss the rest of the changes at the talk-page. Wtf does "endomym" mean?, changing

into

You reverted this diff with the edit-summary Reverted for the last good, TrangaBellam had reverted just because the spelling of Endonym was misspelt Obviously, Trangabellam restored her version because she disputes the 'independence' you discern, and she asks what "endonym" means here. Nothing here about misspelling. Obviously, also, you moved a piece of info out of the lead which you dont like, illogically creating a new section which summarized the next section. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  19:00, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The resources has clearly stated that, The region was independently ruled by the Brokpa chief until the 17 th century . So why she is disputing the independence here ? And second thing why there is 3 different paragraph which talks only about two thing that is the reason for Aryan valley and the genetic of the people of Aryan valley . Isn't the Aryan valley notable because of being a historical region and present region .Isn't the geographical Boundary is important to mention in a lead ? Why The history has not a paragraph about Historical event that happened in Aryan valley like the Medival history ,modern history and ancient history. Why there is only a discussion ok whether Brokpa being Aryan or not in the history section. Please think all about these and support the right editor .Thank you Minaro123 (talk) 19:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * And TrangaBellam have stated that "Wtf does "endomym" mean?" Please use the respected langauge and avoid a slur words when we are discussing .Thank youMinaro123 (talk) 19:21, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Didn't you spot K3's edit? So, it is not only me who is disputing your phrasing. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:36, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Coverage from 1984

 * Refers to Michel Peissel whose work can be found in PAHAR.
 * Refers to Michel Peissel whose work can be found in PAHAR.

TrangaBellam (talk) 14:23, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

German Sources

 * Check archives of Bild, Die Welt, Der Spiegel, Süddeutsche Zeitung. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:07, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Not seeing much (read, any) German discourse on our subject. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Vohra: A Review

 * It is my understanding that no scholar-of-repute (Bhan/Clarke/..) takes Vohra's scholarship seriously. Vohra undoubtedly provides us with a meticuluos documentation of the Brok-pa way-of-life but his historical methods are dubious and his conclusions are suspect. I will add another scathing review, soon. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It is my understanding that no scholar-of-repute (Bhan/Clarke/..) takes Vohra's scholarship seriously. Vohra undoubtedly provides us with a meticuluos documentation of the Brok-pa way-of-life but his historical methods are dubious and his conclusions are suspect. I will add another scathing review, soon. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)