Talk:Ascended master/Archive 1

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Ascended masters
The subject of Ascended Masters and Ascension has a history. These days, it's typically attached to Metaphysical circles of discussion. Even if you have no experience in this topic, or simply don't believe in it, that isn't a reason to delete the page. If so, you could delete just about every page about religion and metaphysics that you don't agree with. If you truly believe that no one will be interested in discovering anything about this topic, then delete it. Otherwise, contribute something from your own knowing. Mahamudra, 7/10/04


 * The history of belief in ascended masters is complicated enough that it might be helpful to know, from which of the several groups that teach about Ascended Masters did you get the information that was first posted here? This would help the article read better, making it less likely that waffly statements like "Some believe that. . ." will be desirable throughout the article.  Smerdis of Tlön 04:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Neutrality tag
I am removing the "neutrality dispute" tag on this article because it's been 8 months and the article is pretty well spruced up and explained and they can put the tag back if they still think it's no good. --Bluejay Young 04:50, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * I see the neutrality tag has been put back. I don't think there is a problem with the article.  It reports on the beliefs of some people, that's all.Steve Dufour 07:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Earth Changes delete
Hey, would you people care to give your opinion on Earth changes? The article is about to be deleted: Articles_for_deletion/Earth_changes  Subramanian talk

An Ascension Handbook
Refer to "An Ascension Handbook" by Tony Stubbs, published by OUGHTEN House Foundation 62.90.164.39 13:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"One concept of an ascended master derives from the teachings of Theosophy." Just where in the "teachings of theosophy"? It is not in Blavatsky or even Leadbeater as far as I know. The Mahatmas or Elder Brothers were not referred to as "Ascended Masters".

"In Theosophy, and various descendants and offshoots of theosophy, ascended masters are a group of spiritually enlightened beings," Same problem, be specific or change it. -Bruce


 * The Mahatmas and Elder Brothers (and Adepts) are the Ascended Masters, and Blavatsky referred to them as Masters. --Bluejay Young 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The old lady would certainly not recognise the concept "ascended master ". her masters were human. --Vindheim 20:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Count of St Germain V Sir Francis Bacon
The article says the Count of St Germain's final incarnation was as Sir Francis Bacon. But the Count lived in the 18th century, and Bacon lived in the 17th century - so that doesn't make sense. Can someone clarify?? Cheers. --Triple-X 05:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * A lot of things about the story of Asc. Master St. Germaine (as opposed to the real guy) do not make sense. --Bluejay Young 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ascension bloodlines?
Strangely enough, I had never heard of the concept of ascension bloodlines before working on this article. Although it seems to be the kind of thing that fits in with other things I've read, I've never actually come across a reference to exactly what's talked about in this section. Could someone come up with a source? Thanks, --Bluejay Young 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Ascended masters no part of Blavatsky's theosophy
madame Blavatsky claimed her teachings were derived from Masters. The "ascended" part stems from the I am - Elizabeth Prophet strain of neotheosophy.--Vindheim 12:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Does the term exist in Leadbeater or Bailey?- I don't think so. "It was however the Church Universal and Triumphant, led by Elizabeth Clare Prophet which first coined the term Ascended Masters."

Date? I think you'll find the term used by the Ballards antecedent to the Prophets.

-Bruce


 * You´re probably right, since the Ballards laid the foundations for the  Prophet movement.--Vindheim 09:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ascension in the media
Why was this section removed?


 * The contents were speculative - depending on a controversial understanding of the concept "ascended  master". --Vindheim 09:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Debunkers
The neutrality of Wikipedia is compromised if links to opposing views are removed. A full presentation of the Ascended Master must include references to nonbelievers and debunkers.--Vindheim 11:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Vindheim. Please do not remove critical material, this is not the first time to remind this here. Hele 7 17:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Folks, please read WP:EL that give standards for external links. Any site with a tilde in it is a personal website and does not meet the standard of a reliable source (see WP:RS). There is no problem with critical links, but no links, supportive or critical, can be to personal website. &mdash;Hanuman Das 14:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * WP:EL and WP:RS do not tell that "any site with a tilde in it is a personal website" and this is not true in general. A page can be reliable with a tilde in its address or personal without it. The real problem here is that Aburesz keeps pushing a POV in non-encyclopedic style and deleting all critical material without any discussion. It has resulted in article being totally out of balance, actually changed into religious propaganda while we are disputing about a tilde. Hele 7 22:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It is highly inappropriate to be adding links to personal attack sites - labeled as "Debunkers" - to Encyclopedia entries on religious beliefs held by large numbers of people throughout the world, with long established centers, churches, and temples. This is the Twenty-First Century, not the time of the Spanish Inquisition. It is appalling that some individuals think they have the right to judge the validity of other people's religious beliefs. NO ONE has the right to judge the validity of other people's religious beliefs. Just think how outrageous this would be if widely practiced on Wikipedia: Christian Bible Fundamentalists would post "Debunker" links on entries relating to Catholic saints about the false belief of praying to saints as being non-Biblical and idolatrous; Shiite Moslems would post "Debunker" links on Wikipedia entries about Sunni Moslems; Sunni Moslems would post "Debunker" links on Wikipedia entries about Shiite Moslems; Christian Bible Fundamentalists would post "Debunker" links on entries relating to religious beliefs about Hindu Gods as being false beliefs, non-Biblical, and idolatry; Jewish zealots would post "Debunker" links on Wikipedia entries about Christian beliefs as being false and violations of the First Commandment!


 * Using this "Debunker" logic of attacking other people's religious beliefs, every article relating to Christianity could have negative impositions upon it, such as the Moslem commentary in the Yemen Times on October 29, 2006 which states: "Yes, it was Christianity that was imposed upon the ancestors of most of its faithful today and it was either belief in Jesus or death for them." Does this charge also need to be attached to every Wikipedia article related to Christianity? OBVIOUSLY NOT!


 * Using this "Debunker" logic of attacking other people's religious beliefs, every article relating to Islam could have negative impositions upon it, such as the Catholic Pope Benedict XVI's reading: "Show me what Mohammed brought us that was new, and you will only find nasty and inhuman things, like his order to use the sword to spread the faith that he professed", quoting a text attributed to a Byzantine emperor, concerning the violence supposedly present in the Moslem religion since its birth.


 * Using this "Debunker" logic of attacking other people's religious beliefs, every article relating to any religion could have negative impositions upon it by atheists, or by Jehovah's Witnesses who believe that every religion except their own is a "false religion" (their current global campaign is to spread a 4 page flyer to all households stating just that!). Jehovah's Witnesses have not hit Wikipedia yet, but they would have a precedent if this "debunker" approach to reference material is allowed to continue. Allen Buresz 05:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

An encyclopedia article about a particular subject should reflect opinions and attitudes of different people, not only of admirers of the subject. You warn about Jehovah's Witnesses, but Wikipedia article on Jehovah's Witnesses is much better balanced than your version of this article, it contains also critical and controversial material. Follow this example and you will get far better results than from repeated deletions of everything you do not like to see here. You note that it is not the time of the Spanish Inquisition now - so please do not follow their practice to silence all different opinions. On flyers your text and style would be OK, but an encyclopedia is not a place to promote a religion. Hele 7 15:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I want to clarify my previous comments on "Debunder" impositions on Wikipedia articles. I agree that it would be appropriate to include critical and controversial material in a article about an ORGANIZATION in order to present differing views. Joe Szimhart's article from 1998 that is part of his personal smear campaign and vendetta against Church Universal and Triumphant under the former leadership of Elizabeth Claire Prophet is about that organization. So in an article about Church Universal and Triumphant, it would be something that could be advocated by some as appropriate in such an article. But it is not appropriate in article about the RELIGIOUS BELIEFS in Ascended Masters. These beliefs about the Individualized Presence of God, the Ascension, and those who have entered Immortality and become "Ascended Masters" are held by many who neither have nor want any association with Elizabeth Claire Prophet's organization. Allen Buresz 19:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, that makes some sense, I have to admit. Andries 23:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I find the link to debunkers ( or detractors ) to be inconsistent with what appears to be very neutral, academic and informative entry on the topic of ascended masters. When it comes to established faiths and religious beliefs, and write-ups about them in encyclopedia, it would appear to me the article and it's supporting references are all that is required. The concept of having oppositional links to a belief system being posted on the same page detracts from the encyclopedic ambiance of wikipedia. Along with freedom of the internet, most enlightened countries hold to freedom of faith or belief as well as freedom of speech. Rather than the debunkers standing in opposition to a faith on the same page, it would seem to make sense to me that they have their own page and topic and, there, under some banner or heading, present what they stand for. Otherwise any write up on religion or a faith runs the risk of becoming a bar brawl of contending beliefs or disbeliefs, resulting in wikipedia loosing it's standing for rational, measured and accurate presentation of many known facts and beliefs in the world about us. Procleus 17:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A quote from one of the supporting links - can you call this "very neutral, academic and informative"?


 * "The purpose of the Ascended Masters' 'I AM' Activity is to bring help from Their Octave of Life. Mankind must have more than ordinary assistance to stand against the accumulation of mankind's disobedience to the Laws of Life. Physical actions alone cannot solve the world's problems nor remove the discordant energy which human beings release against each other, usually ignorant of its destructive force. The aim of the true seeker of the Light is to protect all that is constructive; to maintain God (Good) Ideals by dedicating one's Life to God in the highest and most powerful way possible; and to bring forth the Fulfillment of God's Divine Plan for all embodied in America and every nation and all who come in the future."


 * If there are links to such praise and preaching, there should be also links to opposite views. If you do not like the NPOV policy of presenting different values and opinions in one article, you should bring your issue up on the talk page of the policy, not violate the policy here. Hele 7 19:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The ascended master article is neutral, academic and informative. The link in question is a reference to a historic and current organization which holds to the ascended master belief. Finding a particular tenet or view of one of these organizations that one is not 'agreeable' with does not invalidate the clear and authoritative nature of the article. Hanging signs over and around the article about 'Neutrality' being in question, for someone with knowledge of the field, smacks of pandering to yearnings of censorship and control. When I came across the wikipedia article, some weeks back, I was impressed by it's throughly researched and authoritative description. What detracts from the experience however is the desperate attempt to include debunkers and their views. The wikipedia article is not 'selling' or 'promoting' anything but presenting an authoritative description of the field. It would appear the detractors are uncomfortable with such an exposition of the subject matter. Should that shroud the subject matter. I would hope not. Procleus 04:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Important spiritual leaders in company of sect authorities?
I moved here the following text from the article:

"Various important spiritual leaders such as Jesus, Confucius, Gautama Buddha, Mary the Mother of Jesus, and Kuan Yin the compassionate bodhisattva, take their seats alongside magical or alchemical personalities like the Count of St Germain, and other mystic celebrities like Kuthumi, one of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky's claimed spiritual guides&mdash;all of these leaders have put aside any differences they might have had in their earthly careers, and unite instead to improve the spiritual well-being of the human race. "

This is strongly not NPOV and in case of inclusion into article it should be clearly tagged as a claim of a limited religious group. Hele 7 23:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The belief that these individuals are Ascended Masters is widely held throughout the world, and is not "a claim of a limited religious group". Allen Buresz 05:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Partially true. There are several related groups who have this belief, not just one religious group, but still, the number of people who hold this belief is small and the belief is considered a bit strange and "exotic" to most people. Andries 07:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Beliefs in Jesus, Buddha and other important spiritual leaders are indeed widely held, but belief that Count of St. Germain or Madame Blavatsky's ghosts belong to the same level or company is rare and for most people, strange. It is a try of authority transfer. An analogue were if I said "great physicists such as Newton and Einstein take their seats alongside me; we together have made the physics". Such a claim should in no case be stated as a fact in an encyclopedia. Hele 7 22:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculing other people's religious beliefs has no place in an objective encyclopedia article entry, nor does condemning the religious belief in Immortal Ascended Masters - that is considered Sacred Truth by so many throughout the world - as being a belief in "Blavatsky's ghosts". This is as out of place in an an objective encyclopedia article entry on Ascended Masters as it would would be for non-Christians to ridicule articles on the Transfiguration, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus, or for Protestants to ridicule an article on the Catholic belief in the Physical Ascension (Assumption) of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. A subject or belief needs to be accurately described with definite citations, not trampled upon by those who disagree with the subject or belief!

This Wikipedia project should not degenerate into a judgmental new "Spanish Inquisition" or Muslim clerical "thought police" intervention where that which someone does not agree with is condemned and attacked. Opinions are not facts. What needs to be stated as fact - when dealing with an article about a religious belief - IS WHAT THE BELIEF BEING DESCRIBED IS, not that non-believers think that it is ridiculous or irrational. Allen Buresz 17:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The new version of the disputed paragraph is better than previous, but nevertheless I moved the following here:

"Belief in the Brotherhood and the Masters is an essential part of the syncretistic teachings of various organizations that have continued and expanded the Theosophical philosophical concepts. Examples of those believed to be Ascended Masters are Jesus, Confucius, Gautama Buddha, Mary the Mother of Jesus, Pope John Paul II,, Kwan Yin the compassionate Bodhisattva, as well as the Master of Alchemy Saint Germain and Kuthumi, (one of Helena Blavatsky's "Mahatmas"). It is believed that all of these put aside any differences they might have had in their Earthly careers, and unite instead to advance the spiritual well-being of humanity. "
 * Why I moved this? Because such words as "various organizations", "believed to be" and "it is believed" are not informative enough. Name 1-3 biggest organisations who hold the belief and confirm this with reliable references. Please do not use your own writings in Internet as sources, see.
 * To continue the discussion: in an article about a religious belief, the belief should be characterized in balanced way by various groups, not only by believers. See for examples and, there you will find many examples of articles where worshippers and enemies of different legendary beings have found good compromises with those who deny existence of these beings. Describing a belief from non-believer's POV is not "trampling upon" it, nor is the belief "condemned and attacked". A non-believer gives his or her description of the belief as does the believer, a reader gets information from both sides and is free to choose (or not) a standpoint. Hele 7 15:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The new version is so much better that I will not touch it now. Do you know some secondary sources (not published by these religious organisations) which would describe beliefs about ascended masters, e.g. some university textbook or scientific monography? The present references section is... like references mainly to Watchtower were under article about Jehovah, you see? Hele 7 00:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

There is the famous study by Charles S. Braden released by MacMillan Publishing Company in 1960 titled These Also Believe. This classic study of minority religions in the United States of America was referenced in university theology, sociology, and psychology classes that I took decades ago. Allen Buresz 02:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Titles cited by Johnson, Faivre and Whitsel are all academic works published by academic publishers.--Vindheim 02:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities (Oxford University Press, USA 2004) is an academic book by an academic publisher describing these believers in Ascended Masters: The I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom and The Summit Lighthouse. Allen Buresz 06:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Great :) I think we should summarize these academic sources in neutral way and add the summaries and references to the article. It would increase the value of the article. I am glad that editing of the article has became more constructive. Hele 7 13:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a pulpit
Some editors seek to shape articles to present their secterian views as objective truth. This is not the purpose of an encyclopaedia. Secterian views must be presented as such, and links to secterian views the same. Also, links to critical pages should be included. --Vindheim 12:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, as Wikipedia gains popularity here will appear more people who try to use it to promote their views and products. Wikipedia should have a definite procedure or policy for such cases. Hele 7 16:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It does have a policy: WP:NPOVQuendus 06:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * What actions does the policy prescribe for case if somebody keeps pushing a POV and several warnings from different editors do not change his behaviour, as is the case here? Hele 7 22:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have posted an alert on the Wikiquette page, in order to attract the attention of an administrator.  ("call the cops")--Vindheim 01:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The recommended action is described here, and is more-or-less what Hele7 is doing.
 * Also: I yesterday I kept forgetting to sign my comments and I have no idea why. Quendus 06:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I tried. Next stop, Requests for mediation. - Richfife 18:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to work, however, all parties should also formally agree to mediation. Maybe those who are familiar with the procedure should remind and instruct those who may not be so familiar with it? Hele 7 13:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It would appear that the aburesz has tacitly agreed to the two points I declared for mediation: NPOV tag and opposing links, so it's probably moot at this point. Should the issue unmoot in the future, though, mediation and possibly arbitration certainly remain options. - Richfife 19:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, it worked unexpectedly fast and well. I will keep this article on my watchlist. Please help some more: see your talk. Hele 7 19:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems that he is asking for stronger measures. Hele 7 14:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * He has been blocked for 24 hours as of now. - Richfife 21:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * More to clean up for the same reason: Great White Brotherhood, Kuthumi, The Temple of The Presence, I Am movement, The Bridge to Freedom, Seven Rays ... Hele 7 23:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have very little time right now, but I'll do what I can. - Richfife 23:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * FYI, the block applies to all articles, not just this one. - Richfife 00:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The article was on RfC
The article was on RfC, it's how I got here. It was removed from RfC as over 1 month old request. Hele 7 13:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Reverting potentially libelous material

 * From: Wikipedia: Three Revert Rule


 * Reverting potentially libelous material: "All users are encouraged to remove unsourced or poorly sourced blatantly defamatory, potentially libelous information about living persons, whether within a biography of a living person or elsewhere, including associated talk pages. As with vandalism, the repeated addition of such material is best dealt with by blocking and page protection, and repeated reversion should be used only as a last resort. Reverts made to enforce this provision are generally not considered contentious, because they are necessary."

>>> The repeated adding of blatantly defamatory, potentially libelous external web site links attacking any person or organization on a page describing the belief in Ascended Masters, a religious belief held by a number of organizations both in the past and present, is totally out of place - and a violation of the Wikipedia policy quoted above. This type of behavior interferes with the possibility of Wikipedia becoming an objective, neutral, and useful academic reference resource. At the very least, it should be obvious that under no circumstances should External links to defamatory personal attack web sites directed against any individual or church be on an encyclopedia article that is not about that individual or church organization. <<< Allen Buresz 23:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The rule you quote only applies to living people. What living person is being libelled here? -999 (Talk) 22:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * From Spam:

"Blatant examples of advertising masquerading as articles can be speedily deleted by tagging the articles with db-spam. Other advertisements posted on Wikipedia can be dealt with by either Prod-ing or listing them on Articles for deletion."


 * Propaganda for a religious belief is no way "an objective, neutral and useful academic reference resource", it is spam. On your flyers or on your website you may remain silent about facts that most people do not share your belief and many of them are critical towards it, but you cannot do the same in Wikipedia. You have crossed the line using unacceptable editing methods (repeated reversions instead of discussion, repeated removal of NPOV tag when there is no consensus, marking your content-changing edits as minor, etc.), so all your production in Wikipedia is under attention now. If your belief does not allow you to tolerate different opinions and limit yourself to commonly accepted editing methods in articles about this belief, please consider contributing in other areas of Wikipedia. Hele 7 15:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I have read the discussion above and tend to side with the view by Allen Buresz. It makes sense to me that an article should put forth the relevant facts on the topic and not be clouded by links to various people's comments that just don't happen to like the concept. To permit this behavior is at best in poor taste... Bob8080 6 November 2006

I think posting external links to defamatory smear articles against a person or organization on a page about a particular religious term and belief is TOTALLY inappropriate. The article on Ascended Masters presents facts refering to the entire history of Ascended Masters' teachings as they have been given out over the last 75 years. Those critical external links point to articles posted by disgruntled individuals, written under high emotional disturbance and with a vindictive and destructive bent. It has nothing to do with the spirit of Wikipedia in my view. Paul Verity 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I would also side with Allen Buresz. I don't believe it's right for links to the web sites of Bible fundamentalist groups - that are crusading against other religious groups that they don't agree with - to be placed on a page about the subject of "Ascended Masters". This is not a page about a religious group. I thought this was supposed to be a serious attempt at an encyclopedia? (?!?) I'm all for Freedom of Speech, which means I AM also all for the Freedom of Speech that I personally dissagree with. The article could include language such as "claim to be", "purport to be", etc., but those certain links have no place here. Theoschela 21:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article is about a belief. A belief should be described not only by admirers and followers of it but also by neutral observers and by those who have had bad experiences with it. The same applies to religious groups and all other subjects in Wikipedia. All groups have freedom of speech here, not only those you "happen to like". Wikipedia should give balanced descriptions. It is not a place for a religious group to promote their system of beliefs. Attempts to do so are bad PR for the group and it will remain in public space for a long time. Hele 7 21:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Having come to the 'discussion' section of this article, I wasn't expecting to find such recent activities and differences of thought. The current, as I write, reference no. 7 within the article - "Partridge, Christopher ed. New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities Oxford University Press, USA 2004" is an update and not otherwise much changed from the original which was published in the late 1980s. I turned out to be the principal contributor to the section in this academic book for the section on the 'neo-Theosophical' movements commencing with the 'I AM' Activity of the Ballards. Contributors such as myself were consultants and did not do the final edit. In discussion with the original editor of the 1980s version (not Christopher Partridge, and she will I imagine have been advisor to him for the 2004 update), we discussed then what attitude or tone should be taken, and why. Perhaps I should explain that this volume is not just an academic work, but was specifically requested by elements of the British governemnt - as recall, by the Home Office - in order to provide accurate and unbiassed information on the 'New Religious Movements' precisely because most information not actually derived from the groups or movements themselves was of a negative nature (e.g. Christian evangelical tracts on each and every such movement). Since the intent of such sources of information was negative by nature, it was sometimes wildly inaccurate. These inaccuracies in turn were being picked up at the time (the 1980s) by the mainstream media in the UK. It was therefore officially requested that the London School of Economics, which had a department for such study, produce a neutral and factual work of the 'NRMs'.

I give this background since it was deemed quite inappropriate and unnecessary to go into much detail about critics of any NRMs. Today I'd comment on this that whereas a membership might number in the thousands, a critical perspective is often, it turns out, written by one or a few individuals, or by a competing religious viewpoint such as Christian. What WOULD be briefly referred to would be any truly factual, information, possessing evidence, of a negative nature about any movement's misdeeds. But the academic approach chosen was essentially one of giving each movement's history, philosophical background or sources, current beliefs, and where available the facts or estimates as to the current undertakings, membership numbers, etc. In summary, a 'neutral' article was not usually deemed to be one giving 'both sides', pro and contra, since the contra side is almost always there for any religious set of beliefs. Accuracy lay in giving the history and present state and set of beliefs more-or-less as the membership would have given them to us. Needless to say, this did not in any way take on an evangelical slant for any organisation, however: the aim was to be factual.

I should just stress again that I only discussed all this with the first - 1980s - editor informally, though at length, and then I helped shape the couple of pages on the twentieth-century 'Ascended Master' movements. My point here, seeing the discussion, is that with academic accuracy in mind, little heed was given to staunch critics, and the beliefs of the movements were presented largely as they would have worded them (or even had, in print), since the critics above all had an agenda and lacked accuracy - as it happened. That's the attitude I'd advocate today for Wikipedia on the ascended masters (lower or higher case).

It was difficult to know which discussion thread to put this into but I've chosen this current one. May I also add that - if it is not obvious - a fairly good knowledge of the movements, these specific movements, is required in order to usefully edit the article.

In reference to another discussion thread on the article: the subject of whether 'Ascended Masters' is or is not a term or concept held by Theosophy. The path to take here seemed pretty obvious for "New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities", Oxford University Press. Theosophy had its own section in which Theosophy was discussed. Then the twentieth-century movements had their own sections, which can indeed be summarised as "ascended / Ascended master / Master Activities". Whether the beliefs and concepts of these movements really did reflect Theosophy was immaterial - the article or pages was on them and their beliefs. [We did not go into this technicality, but 'Ascended Masters' do exist within Theosophy, but simply under another term. Within Theosophy, Masters or Mahatmas who have undergone the Fifth Initiation (in Theosophical terms) appear to be identical to 'Ascended Masters'. From the Ballards on, the attempt was to de-mystify terminology and to make it more accessible to the layperson. Steranko 03:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your informed contribution. What is "Theosophical teachings" may however be more complicated than you seem to realise.  "Masters undergoing the fifth initiation" were introduced by Leadbeater, and cannot be found in Blavatsky's writings.I would therefore label such beliefs "second generation Theosophy" and  the  Ascended Master beliefs third- or even fourth-generation Theosophy. --Vindheim 06:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, on the numbered initiations you are quite right that this began with Leadbeater and Besant and also Alice Bailey were she to be considered part of the canon. It can in a sense be regarded as 'second generation Theosophy'. However that's a debate for any article about Theosophy; my real point there was that 'Ascended Masters' can be perceived as having a precursor-concept within Theosophy. I'd certainly say that this goes back to Blavatsky's era and the Mahatama Letters as well, since a detailed reading about, let us say, the Chohans, seems to indicate that while they can manifest in physical form, they were / are much more than physical beings; and certainly when discussion or writings of the late 1800s got into such beings as the Kumaras, here we are certainly not dealing with incarnated humans. Again, it is all moot as the approach I'd suggest is not to even attempt to 'prove' whether neo-Theosophy is 'correct'! All one can do with any religion, let alone those apart from the mainstream, is to faithfully report their beliefs. In doing so, we are not assesing truth-claims (such as the Mormons believing that God is a physical being on another planet, as I understand it - one simply reports on the beliefs held, with as much accuracy as possible). Steranko 11:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel compelled to 'jump in.' ... I too would side with Buresz, and for reasons similar to Steranko's, I will add some relevant passages here at the end of this discussion chain. I have found a number of pertinent quotes from Helena Blavatsky, which, I believe, relate closely to Ascended Masters, and the fact that the Mahatmas, or her Masters, were not mere human beings, but represented (and demonstrated, if I may) much more to her. Indeed, the fourth quote may well address Vindheim's concern about the "Fifth Initiation", by presenting a related or comparible concept of Blavatsky's. ... While these passages cannot prove the reality of their claims (which I believe in, personally), they do clarify how Helena understood the Mahatmas to be, and where the term 'Ascended Master' can fit in to Theosophy. These latter two points are the purpose of this presentation of quotes.


 * I here cite a number of passages from the book, "The Inner Group Teachings of H.P. Blavatsky" (ISBN 09-913004-47-2, Point Loma Publications, Inc. 1985), in chronological order. The last point may be the strongest.


 * After an initiatory Pledge was taken by the Inner Group Members, including Dr. A. Besant, HPB said, "It is in the presence of the Master you have taken it" (Meeting: August 20, 1890). This would suggest that the Master was somehow present, though not physically, which is an ability not ascribed to usual people.
 * Along the lines of the Ascension, while explaining a diagram representing the human principles, HPB affirmed, "In all these systems remember the main principle, the descent and re-ascent of the Spirit, in man as in Kosmos" (Meeting: December 17, 1890).
 * On New Year's Eve, 1891, in a letter to Annie Besant and Isabel Cooper, HPB described herself as the "...devoted servant of the MASTER, beyond" (All-Caps in original). The word "beyond" is obviously referring to a transcendent 'location.'
 * Again, relating to the Ascension, HPB explained "To become a Rāja-Yogi, one has to ascend up to the seventh portal, the Satyaloka" (Meeting: January 11, 1891). I admit, I do not fully comprehend the terms used, but I suspect the gist is suffecient for the current purpose.
 * HPB stated, "The Masters' bodies are, so far as they are concerned, illusionary, and hence do not grow old, become wrinkled, etc" (Meeting: January 21, 1891). This would better fit the description of an immortal (...the idea being that the Mahatmas were not born as such but, through the practice of various disciplines, attained to it. Unascended adepts are able to stop the aging process, not out of self-gratification, but to extend the time with which to advance the disciplines...in preparation for the final Ascension). Trying49 07:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a useful and interesting list of reasons for considering HPB's Mahatmas, or some of them, to be synonymous with Ascended Masters. I'd point out, as above, however, that there's possibly - I'd suggest probably - no need at all to assess the truth claims of the twentieth-century movements. If people were to delve into assessing the truth claims of religion, then an entry on Christianity may as well begin with assessing whether God exists. The best approach would seem to be an accurate rendition of any movement's beliefs, nature, history and activities irrespective of content. Questioning the validity of religious beliefs isn't usually the role of an encyclopedia entry. (There could be exceptions to this in certain circumstances: for example, a very detailed article on Theosophy might well mention the controversy over the Mahatma letters, since this was an important historical debate.) Steranko 11:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't agree that these quotations show that Blavatsky's concept of masters, even in her final year, was equal to the Ballard and later concept of "ascended masters". My point is not to dicuss the truth or otherwise of such concepts, only to make their historical development clear.--Vindheim 11:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It's true that the concepts aren't 'equal' in the sense of being identical, since little was really known or stated in Blavatsky's time about the details of what a Master was or how such a state was achieved. Later Theosophy itself, and then the neo-Theosophical organisations, purport to take the original concept but develop it - and purport to be doing this in communication with the Masters, or even in their own words. (Remember that we are simply dealing with belief here.) Blavatsky, for obvious reasons on the timeline, couldn't confirm that the later developments did indeed accurately reflect her Mahatmas; but what can be said is that Leadbeater and Besant, the Ballards, the Prophets, and so forth, certainly believed they were in possession of knowledge accurately developing the original (rather vague) Blavatskian concept of Masters. Steranko 16:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

All external links on this article are non-neutral
and don't kid yourself. That's not fatal, it's just the way things are around this belief system. People enter into and it is the best thing that ever happened to them. Other people into it and it is hell on earth. Both experiences are valid and must be accepted. Sometimes people express opinions that we don't agree with. That's too bad, life goes on. If you can not accept that, then you have a severe problem that you need to address sooner rather than later. Attempting to remove information that you do not agree with does not speak well of you or your belief system. - Richfife 03:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Needs a better intro
The intro in this article is hard to understand. It should be the Wikipedia format, as in An Ascended master is a ...... It was first proposed by..... etc. --AW 18:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe this line should be first? "In various descendants and offshoots of Theosophy, [12] Ascended Masters are held to be a group of spiritually enlightened beings, once ordinary humans, who have undergone a process of spiritual transformation. " --AW 18:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Be bold and try it! However, be warned that some believers follow their specific style in this and some related articles (read the rest of the talk page). They insert large quantities of Overcapitalized Praise and Preaching and often revert changes by other editors. Making any changes permanent is a problem here. Hele 7 22:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The suggestion for a new cleaner simpler intro with the term being described in the first sentence is a very good idea. I have moved the previous first sentence down to the section "Beliefs about Ascended Masters" making it the first sentence of that section. Aburesz


 * Thanks to both of you. I added the line I suggested to Aburesz's line. --AW 22:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I deleted the repetition of that line which appeared in the second paragraph. Aburesz 22:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Technical and confusing tags
I added those to the article, because it seems to quickly get bogged down in stuff I don't understand and a huge amount of footnotes. --AW 22:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The large number of footnotes evolved from repeated requests for references and citations for various statements about this belief system. Aburesz 22:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Technical accuracy correction: I have removed "Share International" from the introductory paragraph and External links, since Benjamin Creme's organization has never used the term "Ascended Master". I just confirmed this by reviewing their printed literature (which I purchased several days ago through Amazon.com) and their own web site information. They don't consider themselves part of the "Ascended Master Teachings" belief system introduced by "The I AM Activity", but base their beliefs on theosophy, Alice Bailey's books, and new concepts introduced by Benjamin Creme. Aburesz 03:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Untrue Can somebody make sure that proper references are not removed from this article? Thanks in advance. Andries 08:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Guys, that doesn't address the tags. Can somebody please clarify this article, at least the beginning, and make it make sense for somebody who isn't involved in these things, as you guys all seem to be. For example, this is the third sentence, and means nothing to me:
 * "This term for the "Immortal Saints and Sages" who have gone through the Initiations of the Transfiguration, Resurrection, and the Ascension was further popularized by The Bridge to Freedom (1951), The Summit Lighthouse (1958), The Temple of The Presence (1995), and various other organizations." This article clearly gets too technical too fast. --AW 09:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Since I started taking my medicines I do not meet the Ascended Masters anymore. I think the subject would be clarified if we inserted a list of Ascended Masters that is now at the Great White Brotherhood. Andries 09:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree, I don't think that would help. There needs to be some kind of basic thing that says what an ascended master is, does, etc. The line I mentioned there means absolutely nothing to me. --AW 10:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the phrase that AW pointed out was not clear into a lower section in order to simplify the introduction. Aburesz 19:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The article in general is still pretty dense and hard to follow however. --AW 07:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

In an article introduction that lists examples of organizations that have popularized the use of the term "Ascended Masters" since the introduction of the term by "The I AM Activity" in 1934, there can not be listed Benjamin Cremes's Share International - which has never used that term. Aburesz 17:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * They did use the term as I already proved. May be they did not help to popularize and may be they do not deserve to be mentioned in the lead section, but they do deserve to be mentioned in the article somewhere. Andries 19:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Benjamin Creme does not use the term "Ascended Masters" to describe beings in his belief system. The sentence you quoted was using "resurrected and ascended" as adjectives in the same way that a Christian might use those adjectives to describe Jesus. But outside of the organizations that believe in the "Ascended Master Teachings" you do not have Christians referring to Jesus as the Ascended Master Jesus. This article is about the religious belief systems that use the term "Ascended Masters". Aburesz 06:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have some simple questions that I can't figure out from this article, and which should be in the second paragraph, I think. What does an ascended master do? How do you determine if somebody is or not? In layman's terms please, unlike the rest of the article. --AW 19:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added in the second paragraph a clear and simple definition of "Ascended Masters" as requested by AW - taken from the literature of the believers of this religious belief system. Aburesz 05:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that's much better. There are a few random capitals and things, and I'm not sure what a matter plane is, but that definitely helps. --AW 15:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Matter plane" refers to the atomic and molecular structure in which evolution takes place, the lower planes (dimensions / wavelength frequency resonance) sometimes correlated with physical solids, liquids, and gases; the higher subplanes of the physical octave are sometimes referred to as "etheric" and not normally perceivable by the physical senses. Aburesz 16:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, so what does it mean "to gain mastery over matter planes"? Sorry to ask so many questions, I'm trying to get this to be understandable by your average joe, like me --AW 16:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

According to these teachings, gaining "mastery over matter planes" means learning to consciously use 100% of one's Creative Power of thought, feeling, and spoken word to create greater perfection, joy, and love in the world, as opposed to using thoughts, feelings, and words to create greater limitations, bondage, and chaos in one's own experience and in the world at large through carelessness and lack of awareness of the extent of one's influence in the world. Aburesz 17:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks. The first few paragraphs are a lot better now. --AW 03:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

esotericism and initiatory knowledge
Esotericism is not identical to a belief in initiatory knowledge, a point which is not appropriate for discussion on this page. However there is no doubt in academic studies of religion that the concept of intiatory knowledge is extremely ancient. Text changed accordingly. --Vindheim 21:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that "the concept of intiatory knowledge is extremely ancient". Some writers have claimed that it was restored 4.5 million years ago (some have it at 18.5 million years) at Shamballa. Aburesz 00:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Blavatsky's number was 16 million years, I believe. That is however a sectarian statement of faith. Academics claim only to be able to trace the concept a few thousand years back. That should anyway legitimate the statement  in the article.--Vindheim 06:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I see my change was not understood. I have modified the wording a bit more to make the intent clearer. Wjhonson 15:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

But the article by Faivre (an academic reference which I added some months back) does not confirm your statement. It confirms that belief in the existence of initiatory knowledge is exteremely ancient. I have changed the wording accordingly. I do, however, have a problem in seeing sectarian quotes by (i.e.) Grace F. Knoche being presented as historical sources equal to academic texts. --Vindheim 17:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Not Only Blavatsky
Purely on Blavatsky, and her period of the Theosophical Society, I don't find the article at the time of writing to be neutral. I read in it "While some of her critics believe the Masters are pure fantasy" and words about her "changing stories". On the one hand, to be comprehensive and inclusive, I do agree that it should be mentioned that Blavatsky had her skeptics then and does now. What religious belief doesn't? But the article in its approach to Blavatsky's claims about the Mahatmas is not at all neutral and academic on this important point: it gives the impression that all evidence and all accounts as to the Mahatmas' real existence stemmed from just her spoken and written words. Nothing could be further from the truth! During her time some dozens of people left accounts of their meetings with the same Mahatmas, or in some cases, Mahatmas co-working with the more famous names. For example, this article, which I doubt is exhaustive, lists twenty-five people's accounts of meetings with the Masters in the late 1800s:

http://blavatskyarchives.com/mastersencounterswith.htm

A few of the accounts there are 'astral' and a skeptic may therefore take them to be dreams, but the majority are quite physical. The article is therefore over-critical by not mentioning this or taking it into account, giving a quite false impression. In my opinion, therefore, the article shouldn't make it appear that the Mahatmas' reality at that time hinged only upon the accounts of one person, Blavatsky. This is not at all the case - from the historical record. I'd suggest the wording be altered to take this into account.

On a much more minor note, there has been discussion about capitalisation. I find it rather bizarre therefore that I find 'Mahatma' spelled in the article with lower-case 'm' when Blavatsky and the Mahatma letters each, as the original sources on Mahatmas, used upper case. Steranko 11:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

At first I wrote the above just as a comment. But it didn't seem logical to comment without tweaking the article accordingly, so I've added a sentence with a reference on this. Steranko 08:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article needs a cleanup according to the mediators. Going through it today, I have noticed that there is little differentiation between the various versions of the AM beliefs.

Perhaps representatives of the various viewpoints here could insert the name of their organization or its main proponent(s) at relevant places. Maybe also the article should be reorganized, so that the various versions are separated into different paragraphs  or even sections. The footnotes should also be reorganized, to emphasize the differences between sectarian and academic viewpoints. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vindheim (talk • contribs) 02:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

reinserted link
I do not agree with aburesz that a the link should be removed. please discuss before doing such things. --Vindheim 02:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The link that was removed was to a wacky article on a personal web site that does NOT provide additional reference material on the subject of Ascended Masters. Instead, this individual states that Ascended Masters must die and disappear after acknowledging him as the "living master": "You must announce in the body you are using that you have heard the truth of the living master and you are going on. You must tell the people only this, and be gone."
 * Wikipedia:External links: Links normally to be avoided: "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: it should be a simple exercise to show how the link is directly and symmetrically related to the article's subject." Aburesz 05:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The link you have continually removed is no more wacky than the links you actively promote.The site contains information on the theme of the article, namely "ascended masters".--Vindheim 18:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The whole idea of 'ascended masters' is pretty wacky to many people! The link is to a personal website but the article is not by that individual but by the spiritual teacher Barry Long. The article is directly about and provides information about ascended masters and offers an alternate view. I would re-insert the link except that I'm not sure about copyright issues. 89.240.2.153 13:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

This article should describe the belief about ascended masters in neutral way, but it is based and links mainly to strongly biased promotional sources of tiny minority of believers who are trying use this article for promotion of their belief. Those believers form a sect with characteristic use of language (e.g. overcapitalization, overuse of superlatives and totality claims). They keep trying to introduce this slang into the article. All links that are critical towards this belief and all indications of POV nature of the article are systematically removed by certain editors, e.g. Aburesz. It is why I tagged the article as resembling a fansite. Hele 7 18:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is a neutral article about a particular set of religious beliefs. The article does not resemble a "fansite". Aburesz 04:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it does, when you insist on using abnormally capitalized obscure words/terms/phrases and remove links to such words for further clarification. Refer to WP:JARGON and WP:NPOV for more info. -Eep² 05:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This article is very far from being neutral. The problem is not only the language of the article, but also its contents and sources, which are strongly biased. Wikipedia should not link to webpage that writes: "Hopefully through this web site, more individuals on our planet will take the Opportunity to know of the Limitless Love, Wisdom, and Power extended to us by God's Ascended Sons and Daughters of Light, and to reacquaint themselves with their own God Presence." or "The entire world should know of the Fiery Christ Truth given to mankind by our beloved Godfre and Lotus, Saint Germain and Jesus, Morya and Kuthumi, and so many other Ascended Masters, Cosmic Beings, and Angelic Hosts of Heaven!" (from Ascension Research Center webpage). This is not factual material and not research, this is blatant religious propaganda. The article expresses and promotes beliefs of a little sect and hides the fact by weasel words such as "various groups and teachers", "various organizations" hiding their real number of followers. This article tries to create a false impression that the belief described in the article is widely held, which is not true. The article contains no critical sources (they are systematically deleted by Aburesz). This article at its present state is not only a fansite, it is a place where some believers make active religious propaganda. Wikipedia is not a pulpit. Hele 7 20:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

These beliefs are not of any one sect or organization. Aburesz 21:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Please indicate clearly how many people hold the belief described in the article. "Various organizations" is not an answer, even if you list 4 branches of the sect. Please do not remove the fansite tag because it is appropriate for reasons I stated above. Instead of starting a revert war, consider making article more neutral: removing links to religious propaganda, including facts about numbers of believers and some critical material.Hele 7 23:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Please take notice of the Guidelines at the top of this page: '''This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ascended master article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.''' Aburesz 01:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I indicated how to improve the article so that the fansite tag could be removed: include facts about number of believers, remove links to blatant religious propaganda and reinsert critical point of view which you deleted. Instead of improving the article, you stole again the fansite tag, writing in edit summary only about adding spaces! If your beliefs do not allow you to remain honest when editing this article, please consider contributing in areas of wikipedia that are less emotionally charged for you. Hele 7 21:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Spaces were added before the reference notes citation links - honestly and exactly as stated. Stop inserting inappropriate tags on articles whose subject matter you have previously indicated that you do not like. Aburesz 22:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Captialization Standards for Religion and Philosophy
According to Wikipedia standards, the previous capitalizations need to be maintained. These are references to proper nouns (such as The Theosophical Society) and references to the Divine (such as "Spirit" as compared to the "spirit of a crowd at a sporting event"). According to the Wikipedia Manual of Style, references to '"Transcendent ideas in the Platonic sense also begin with a capital letter: Good and Truth."' Refer to the Manual_of_Style_%28capital_letters%29. Aburesz 19:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

the masters
I have not read most of the posts on this forum, nor will I. I came to give an opinion, but I don't know if it's been covered here. I've been called an ascended master by others, who are highly spiritual teachers. I came to wikipedia to read a little on this matter. I believe most of what I've read on the main article to be true. I believe there are several things that all people must embrace if they wish to advance themselves in every aspect, as well. Some advice for any who feel they need something more..

Feel and give gratitude for everything. It has all come to you for a reason. You've either brought it upon yourself or someone else brought it to you. But it couldn't enter your reality unless you embraced it. Cheating spouses, debt, wrongful imprisonment, winning the lottery, everything comes with accordance to your actions. If you accept it before it happens and before you know about it, like it's yours, it's yours.

Your emotions are your calling. What you feel you feed. The most powerful way to change your life for the better is to feel love and gratitude for all, for everything. Wake up every morning and say thank you. Thank you for everything. Thank you for this, for that, for things I've never had but I want (say it like you have it.). Thank you for my love. Thank you for my abundance of money. Thank you for my friends. Say thank you hundreds of times in your head through your morning routines, while you're driving. When someone hits your car, believe you and your passengers are well and hope the other car's passengers are well. Anger feeds anger, love feeds love. Which feels better?

Fear is offspring of the unknown. The unknown is nothing to fear, it's a new adventure. Most people fear death. They don't know what is coming; no one can know about death, unless they've died. But most of us have died. We die, return to a spiritual plane of our level, learn, and wait for our choice of which incarnation we will choose, to better experience and learn of life. Enlightenment comes with freedom of fear of death, because you know what happens upon physical death. The unknown is no more.

For my opinion on the 'earth changes' topic like someone requested, yes. We are at the end of an ice age, which means another will soon trigger. I don't know the exact date, but I do know many sources have pinpointed 2012. Firm your own opinion but always leave it open for more. Look at all of the natural disasters the world has encountered lately. Look at the politics. Look at the corruption in every sect of humanity. Psychiatrists have earned over 300 trillion dollars imprisoning and prescribing drugs to children and adults all over the world since the 1960's, from government funding alone. Europe has taken the first step to become one continental country. The USA has a law in place allowing the president to seize full, unchallengeable power at a time he deems emergency. The world needs a change, I am happy of the coming age. I can't wait to see what will come.

Most important for everyone to understand. There are two types of gods. The first is the divine god which governs all. The second is you. Everyone is their own god. Realize this, and be free. 172.191.120.254 04:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC) an "Ascended Master". August 27, 2007

Thanks - you may not have realised, but this is a discussion page to talk about the article rather than a personal blog. Let's keep 'personal' discussion to a minimum please. Contaldo80 (talk) 19:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Category change requested
Please can an administrator remove the metaphysics category from this page. There is a common misunderstanding among non-philosphers that anything to do with spirituality is 'metaphysical'. There is even a sense in which that is true. However, this article has nothing to do with metaphysics, except inasmuch as it makes assumptions about the existence of certain things - and face it, most articles do that. Anarchia 10:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is ABSOLUTELY in the metaphysics category! It should not be removed Arion 15:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Category:Metaphysics is for philosophical metaphysics; that is for articles that refer to the philosophical discussion of existence. These theosophical pages do not contain philosophical arguments at all. There are no arguments referring to recognisd phuilosophers or noteworthy arguments. If they were to be discussed philosophically, they would be treated as empirical examples, not part of the discipline of philosophy. Perhaps you oculd start a ew category Metaphysics (spirituality), although I would have thought that it would end up comtaining exactly the same things that are already in the spirituality category. If you diagree, perhaps we could shift this discuission to the Category:Metaphysics talk page?
 * P.S. A bald statement like "This article is ABSOLUTELY in the metaphysics category! It should not be removed" is not an argument, that is a nice example of why the page does not, and the six or so others like it, does not belong in Cat Metaphysics. Anarchia 22:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Metaphysics has been the theme and foundation of the Instruction that is believed to have been given by Ascended Masters, such as Morya, Kuthumi, Lady Master Nada, and Sanat Kumara. Metaphysics has been the theme and foundation of the Teachings of organizations such as The Bridge to Freedom and The Temple of The Presence. For the last 77 years, Ascended Masters and Their Activities (organizations) have been presented as teaching on philosophical metaphysics, the nature of Reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value. They have been discussing First Principles, including the nature of existence, ontology and cosmology, the Individualization of Self-Conscious Identities, and the All-Pervading Principle of Life. Arion 17:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know what you mean by theme and foundation. I think I know what you mean about teaching about the nature of reality and the relationship between mind and matter etc. The problem is that saying the nature of reality is X is not doing metaphysics. Consider the pages in question:


 * 1) Lady Master Nada contains no arguments about the nature of reality. This page is a bunch of statements about a person. There is no discussion of anthing to do with metaphysics.
 * 2) Kuthumi also contains no arguments about the nature of reality.
 * 3) Sanat Kumara also contains no arguments about the nature of reality. It is, again, a bunch of statements about "the Lord or Regent of Earth and of humanity", which makes a claim about existence, but this is not what metaphysics is about. It would be as ridiculous to include Jesus or Buddha or every page form the Catholic church, which probably also thinks it is inherently concerned with existence, in category:metaphysics.
 * 4) Morya Ditto.
 * 5) The Temple of The Presence Ditto, athough it seems to state facts and events that occur in a community rather than facts or events that occurred for people.
 * 6) The Bridge to Freedom Ditto.
 * Where is the philosphical metaphysics on these pages? Why do you want these pages included in the category?Anarchia 06:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

All of the articles that you have asserted should not be listed under the category of "Metaphysics" are in fact directly concerned with philosophical metaphysics. Organizations of Ascended Master Teachings, as well as those discussions purported to originate directly from Ascended Masters, investigate principles of reality that transcend any particular science, traditionally including cosmology and ontology. They are also concerned with explaining the ultimate nature of existence, self-conscious being and the physical and non-physical world. They discuss subjects that are purported to be beyond the physical world, thus bridging the known material knowledge of man and the purported "Science of the Initiates".

There does not need to be a discussion of the general subject of a category for an article to be listed under that category. For example, there are 145 articles listed in Wikipedia under the category of "Nanotechnology". Each of these articles does not go into a discussion of the general subject of "Nanotechnology" - nor would it be expected to go into such a discussion. Arion 02:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you completely that an article does not need to include the word 'metaphysics' to be in catregory:metaphysics, and also agree that an article need not discuss the subject in general terms to belong in a category. I believe that none of the pages concerned in our discussion here shows signs of investigating reality that would be recognised by any philosopher, and the category in question in philosophical metaphysics. They definitely do discuss "subjects that are purported to be beyond the physical world". But, as most of the pages on Wikipedia do this, this cannot, on its own, be an indicaiton that they belong in cat:metaphysics.
 * I ask again, what is it you believe is achieved by including these pages in cat:metaphysics, especially when they are already appropriately linked into cat:philosophy?
 * Would you like me to ask for this dispute to be mediated?Anarchia 02:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe that anyone who is familiar with the subject of "Ascended Masters" and the organizations promoting this philosophical metaphysics regarding the nature of existence and the nature of Reality would agree that "Metaphysics" as a category best describes this subject. Those unfamiliar with the subject may disagree. Arion 03:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No offence, but I, on the other hand, believe that anyone who has a decent degree in metaphysics would agree that it does not. I think we have a situation here that really is best dealt with by informed mediation. Do you agree? Anarchia 05:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree for the reason that I stated above. Arion 16:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that this article has nothing to do with metaphysics as it is understood in philosophy. This article is an expression of a belief and user Aburesz (with new username Arion) works hard to keep the article reflecting the belief he shares - and excluding different opinions and points of view. Some new-age organization could well wish their Supreme Teaching to be included into category "Quantum physics", but decision whether to include articles into this category requires being familiar with physics, good knowledge of Supreme Teaching is not sufficient for it. Hele 7 19:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This article has to do with metaphysics as understood in 21st century usage and accepted dictionary definitions. I agree with Hele 7 that the "decision whether to include articles into this category requires being familiar with" the particular subject. I have been studying metaphysics since 1962, and have lectured on metaphysics and theories on "principles of reality that transcend any particular science." I believe that I am familiar with metaphysics as both a subject and a category. Arion 21:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not doubt that these articles fit one of the dictionary definitions of 'metaphysics' or 'metatphysical', but not all the dictionary definitions of metaphysics are descriptions of philosophical metaphysics. I suspect that when you write that you have 'lectured on metaphysics and theories on "principles of reality that transcend any particular science."' you are not talking about a lecturing position at a recognised university that you have been given because you have a graduate degree in metaphysics. However, wikpedia decisions are not about who has the best qualifications. Perhaps you could reference the articles in question using wikipedia approved reliable secondary sources that mention these concepts in the context of a discussion of philosophical metaphysics? It is extremely lkely that would convince me that you are correct. I will have a search myself later - kids music lessons now! Anarchia 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Arion, Anarchia is right. The academic community in philosophy frowns on resorting to spirituality, mysticism, and mention of divine. It is a necessary boundary. Metaphysics means something specific to academics. I understand what you are saying too, as it appears to you that it is metaphysics. Perhaps we need a category under metaphysics to deal with this type of thing. I don't think it should be directly in the metaphysics category.


 * I would however say that it could go under philosophy of religion just fine with me.

(BTW, as the pontiff of my own religion, you can consider me to be an Ascended master myself. So there you have it.) Be well, Gregbard 02:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have done the following searches:

i created the category metaphysics(other) for the articles that do not fit into the category as described.--Buridan 15:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Philosophers Index database (all significant articles and books for analytic and continental philosophy from 1940 onwards - I suspect there are some gaps for eastern philosophy)
 * Ascended Master + metaphysics: = No records
 * Lady Master Nada + metaphysics = no records
 * Morya + metaphysics = no records
 * 1) JSTOR, arts and sciences only (doesn't have all journals, but has very good coverage of types of journals, and excellent date range)
 * Ascended Master + metaphysics: = no records
 * Lady Master Nada + metaphysics = no records
 * Morya + metaphysics = no records
 * 1) ISI Web of knowledge Arts and humanities citation index (very comprehensive, but only good for reasonably recent articles (1975 onwards)
 * Ascended Master + metaphysics: = 1 record to RELIGION 34 (3): 163-189 JUL 2004 for "ascended master" alone, "Alien demonology: The Christian roots of the malevolent extraterrestrial in UFO religions and abduction spiritualities". This discusses theosophy, but, does not link "ascended master" to philosophical metaphysics
 * Lady Master Nada + metaphysics = no records
 * Morya + metaphysics = no records
 * 1) Google... okay, not the most reliable of tools, but this also fails to come up with any reliable secondary sources that connect these topics to the philosophical discipline of metaphysics. I am not going to put much more time into this argument. There are more important things in life! Anarchia 02:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

re: adding external links
I think that www.askrealjesus.com and www.mothermarysgarden.com ought to be added as external links. These are Ascended Master sponsored sites that deserve their rightful place among the Ascended Master teachings, as they are currently being given as progressive revelation. The amount of teachings & practical tools on the sites is unheard of. No one has exclusivity over the Ascended Masters, including The Temple of the Presence, which is bringing forth a bunch of gibberish in my opinion. But authenticity is not really relevant when you're dealing with this subject for wikipedia. There's no reason why these sites shouldn't be included. Presterjohn64 (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

merge proposal
There has been a proposal to merge this article with "Ascended Master Teachings". I disagree with this. It would be the same as suggesting merging "Saints" or "Angels" with the article on the "Roman Catholic Church" or "Christianity". Arion (talk) 23:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a question of notability from reliable sources. The standards are at WP:N and WP:SOURCES.  Fireplace (talk) 23:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Here are some reliable sources:


 * Partridge, Christopher ed. New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities Oxford University Press, USA 2004. pages 330 - 334


 * Lewis, James R. Church Universal and Triumphant in Scholarly Perspective Center For Academic Publication 1994.


 * Braden, Charles S. These Also Believe MacMillan Publishing Company 2000 pages 257 - 307


 * Numerous additional references are found in the article itself. Arion (talk) 16:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

chastity
Hi - grateful for some advice/ clarification please. Are Ascended Masters permitted to be for example homosexual, or are they by definition sexually chaste? Contaldo80 (talk) 19:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)