Talk:Ash'arism

This Article needs to be taken down
I am an Islamicist at Yale University and would like to inform the powers-that-be at Wikipedia.org that this article is completely inaccurate and should be removed until an expert can rewrite it from scratch. I suggest looking at the Encyclopedia of Islam article on the Ash`arites for inspiration. I do not have the time to do this myself, unfortunately. I entered the article to correct a few mistakes that hit me in the first paragraph and then realized that the job required too much effort. My view changes may clash with the rest of the article because I quit after paragraph three (or so). Thanks for your attention.

I agree - unlike Mutazila article which is well researched, This one is full of misinformation and inaccuracies. abdulnr 01:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not expert enough to recognize all the possible errors. One error that might be missed by an Muslim re-writer is the statement that Europe was not producing honest histories in the 13th century. There are a dozen counter-examples beginning with the Heimskringla. To judge by Ibn Khaldun's weird idea of Europe the Europeans knew more about the Muslims than vice versa. In the 13th century. In the 10th things might have been different.

As to the article. There should be a careful and accurate description as to what Ashari literature before al-Ghazzali has actually come down to us. Wolfson seems to be reduced to quoting Ibn Hazm (whomm, I imagine, must also be included) constantly. Kleinecke 05:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is really a terribly written and uninformed article. Why hasn't it been taken down? [User:dillis] 01:47, 21 September 2006

If you read Ibn Khaldun's muqadimmah you will see clearly that he was a genius who used avicennian logic which comes from aristotle (well kinda anyway), and invented many things. i reckon this one has been put up by people who want to lead muslims away from their history of intellectual engagement. Don't know why on earth anyone got the idea that ibn khaldun was anti-rational. [user:qirmat] 21:21, 15 Jan 2007 __________________________________________________________________

The article sucked, so I copied and pasted the Encyclopedia of Islam article. It's a bit outdated but can be added to. Please format the article if you know how. Mercy
 * You can't do that. See Copyright.

What the...?
I merely reorganized the article so that it is easier to be edited by those who have more expertise on the subject. I didn't check anything factual or conceptual about the article, but still I have to say it's a BIG MESS.

The eponymous guy changed his views from Mutazilite to the independent thought of his to the abandonment of kalam altogether. Now that may have caused confusion about who is to be called an Ash'arite.

Also, wasn't that same guy who talked about the concepts of khalq and kasb? What about that?

The lack of sources is yet another bad issue. I guess it isn't of Wikipedia's spirit to just cram opinions over opinions.

SOMEONE SHOULD LOOK AT IT! and that is CAREFULLY, falks! -- Wayunga 11:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

urgent editing needed
parts of this article are partial to the content.

this is an important topic and cannot be left like this. Either take it down or redo it properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.22.147 (talk) 22:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you maybe be more specific as to which parts of the article you feel should be changed? MezzoMezzo 05:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I deleted the following, because it is speculative: "

Factors affecting the spread of the school of thought include a drastic shift in historical initiative, foreshadowing the later loss of Muslim Spain and Columbus' landing in the Western Hemisphere - both in 1492. But the decisive influence was most likely that of the new Ottoman Empire, which found the Asharite views politically useful, and were to a degree taking the advantages of Islamic technologies, sciences, and openness for granted. Which, for some centuries after as the Ottomans pushed forth into Europe, they were able to do - losing those advantages gradually up until The Enlightenment when European innovation finally surpassed and eventually overwhelmed that of the Muslims."
 * And the connection between Asharites and Ottoman Empire is definitely wrong. The Ottomans pushed Maturiditism.

NPOV
Concerning the (anti-)rationalism of the Asharites, the statements of the article "Is Ghazali really the Hulagu of science in Islam" are cited as the truth. Yet that article itself recognizes that its position is a minority one and that the position that it argues against is prevalent "in present-day literature". Thus, citing its position as the correct one is against WP:NPOV, specifically WP:NPOV.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, probably a true observation. A Jagged case (Cleanup) listed here near the top. Wikipedia articles regarding Islam is not very reliable yet. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 09:57, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Asharis.com
I am against using polemical, biased and dishonest websites like Asharis.com. They often provide wrong translations and misunderstandings. Such a site should not be used without further examination. 86.52.55.254 (talk) 09:30, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * As someone who reads and speaks Arabic fluently, I have never, at any time, found inaccurate translations on the site. They have been academically honest in showing the texts and making some valid criticisms of the Ash'arite school which have already been made by earlier authorities in Islamic theology, in addition to showing that the early Ash'arites are quite different from modern Ash'arites (which isn't a controversial claim in academic Muslim circles). Now that being said, the site is polemical. Per WP:RS, the source doesn't need to be neutral but simply honest, and the site is honest. Neutrality per WP:NPOV applies to editors, not sources. The answer is simply for us to use the site sparingly and mention, very clearly, when Ash'aris.com is simply providing a translation - which again, they are both skilled and honest with - and when the site is making polemical, non-neutral claims. As a hobbyist in Islamic theology who also has access to physical copies of most of these texts in question, I will volunteer my time to verify any of their translations should a dispute arise. MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:36, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Maturidi scholars jumbled with Ashari scholars
Why do a few famous Maturidi scholars categorized as "Ashari" in this article?

Abu Mansur Al-Maturidi, Al-Kawthari are Maturidi's, not Ashari. In fact, nearly all of the Shafi'ites of the classical eras were affiliated with the Ashari school of though, while the Hanafi's of the classical era were affiliated with the Maturidi school of thought. Of course, there are a few exceptions to this, such as Al-Alusi of Baghdad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.195.203.90 (talk) 06:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Deleted sock puppet edits
I've reverted them again - the IP restoring them was almost certainly another sock. Some of the material was directly copied without quotation marks from so was a copyright violation. There was other material copied from the same site in quotation marks but excessive quoting, ie anything much above 220 words, is considered a copyright violation by our policy, which is stricter than copyright law (note that in any case quotes form the same source are often used in many articles, which is technically a massive violation). Material added should be from reliable sources according to our criteria. It should not consist of large numbers of quotes, and particularly not large numbers of quotes from religious sources. Using primary sources in that way is basically what we call original research, editors deciding what quotes prove what points. In fact, nothing in our articles should be written to prove a point but rather to discuss the subject (WP:NPOV). I note the long list of scholars lacks sources and is apparently simply the belief of various editors as to what belongs. They should be sourced and if removed due to lack of sources shouldn't be replaced. Besides WP:RS editors might benefit from WP:VERIFY. Doug Weller talk 09:05, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Since it's been repeatedly restored with the copyvio intact, I've rev/del'd the offending edits. This means that only Administrators can view them. Doug Weller  talk 10:38, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

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Oops
I was adding some content and it went wrong, someone fix it please Azlanistani (talk) 08:52, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've fixed it now, it's fine Azlanistani (talk) 08:55, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:26, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Matn Ibn Ashir المرشد المعين على الضروري من علوم الدين - متن ابن عاشر.jpg