Talk:Asheville, North Carolina/Archive 1

Asheville Mall
Keep the Asheville Mall article as it is, don't merge it with Asheville, NC. There's no point to that, if someone needs information about Asheville Mall. A lot of the other malls in NC have articles. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cantnot (talk • contribs). .
 * On May 5, 2005, Asheville Mall was nominated for deletion. The result was merge/redirect.  See Votes for deletion/Asheville Mall. --Ezeu 09:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Joshua Warren
I think the section on Joshua Warren's book is overstating the book's influence. Anyone else? The Asheville article mentions Thomas Wolfe (as it should), but it doesn't mention Look Homeward, Angel. Fair enough. But then it mentions Joshua Warren and Warren's book. Wolfe's book is a classic of American literature. Haunted Asheville isn't nearly so famous. Haunted Asheville isn't nearly the tourist draw that the article suggests.

Does anyone else want to air an opinion on this? Mr Frosty 16:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Music
I think the music section has gotten out of hand. Too many bands are mentioned. The article states that the bands are "notable", but no evidence is proffered to support that claim. I think it just looks like promotion. I am in support of Asheville's music scene, but I don't think Wikipedia should be used as a promotional tool for it. Would anyone else like to weigh in on this? Mr Frosty 16:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Even if it can be seen as promotion they are still notable local bands, I think its fine. There are only a few artists there that I havent heard of. Silverweed 13:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Even if they're notable, most larger cities (i.e., Houston, TX) don't go to such lengths regarding local artists. Besides, the section is clearly biased.


 * The section could at least use some line breaks. Zeno Izen 02:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, there's your line breaks. Next edits by me will remove all non-notable local bands/acts. Notability (music) Unless someone else beats me to it.  (hint) Zeno Izen 20:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The section should be shortened, and lines like "of course it would all be meaningless without a place to perform" should be removed. The description of the concerts themselves also seems a little out of place for an encyclopedia - sounds more like a concert review.--AaronM 16:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. There is no need for that lengthy list of bands.  It looks rather foolish. Arx Fortis 23:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Pruning the "bands" list
Okay, we've got a consensus that the "performers and bands" list needs to be edited. I think that the next step is to get a consensus on what the editing criteria should be. * Zeno Izen 01:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Does each artist have an entry (with a discography, and a biography) at www.allmusic.com ? I notice that Chuck Brodsky does.  Chrstine Kane does.  Klarcnova does not.  Allmusic is an authoritative resource.  Why not use that?  Mr Frosty 19:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I concur. If the band/performer is not already known outside of Asheville, then it would appear as more of an advertisement than a reference.  I've noticed a lot of "blue links" link to something completely unrelated to a band.  These bands don't have a wikipedia article.  I think the criteria should be that the band have at least one of the following:
 * a discography/biography at www.allmusic.com
 * an existing wikipedia article ( not just an on-the-fly stub )
 * Is there any other criteria to consider? Arx Fortis 20:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think your criteria are good for pruning purposes. From there we could use the bullet-pointed lists on the Notability (music) page to attend to new additions.  In other words, someone should go ahead and edit the current list based on your criteria.  Then, when new entries are inevitably added, they should be included/removed  based on the notability page.


 * I think the pruning should be done asap. However, I won't do it myself until some time has passed, just to allow for further discussion. Zeno Izen 17:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I did it at almost the exact time you were typing. We can leave it as-is.  While I don't think a complete reversal is in order, individual bands/performers could be added back if the requisite criteria are met. Arx Fortis 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * allmusic is far from authoritative, being riddled with misinformation and narrow view of a proper database of what is really happening musically. the "list" format doesnt look proper with the "film" section that simply seperates them by comma. also, the criteria for bands i have added are in accordance with wiki and have been deleted. is radio rotation, national/worldwide publication/reviews, mentioned elsewhere in wiki, and being on a label not enough? i have had to add a notable band currently in asheville 4 times now as someone simply deletes it without checking to see that they are pushing a new national genre having toured the US multiple times as well as several releases. it seems there is conflict as to what is acceptable between music and film with very small [even unreleased] films being mentioned while other bands that dont meet the criteria are kept and others deleted. i think you are far from any consensus on this matter. some of the bands that are left dont meet the criteria as well as some being deleted. seems a bit biased.


 * as long as the bands are active in asheville, i think they deserve mention just as the film section allows. maybe they dont need their own page as some have, but with the current interactions of the internet and bands promotional abilities, i think it would be a nice way to introduce the world at large to search bands local to asheville and its unique music scene at least the name to further search them out on the web. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alphajerk (talk • contribs) 2 August 2006 (UTC).


 * See the continuation of this thread further down this page... -Zeno Izen 20:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

More re: pruning 'bands'
Righty, nice work Arx... In the interest of further solidifying the list, I looked up all the remaining 'bands' at allmusic.com. Here are my notes. 'one&same?' means I found the band at allmusic, but couldn't find anything to verify that the band I found was the one referred to by the Asheville article. 'check' means I found the band and a reference to either Asheville or North Carolina in that band's entry, suggesting that the band is the one referred to in the Asheville article.

I think the rest of my notes are self-explanatory. Let me know if they aren't.


 * Chuck Brodsky
 * check North Carolina ref. in bio
 * Mad Tea Party
 * this band at allmusic.com is one&same?
 * Dig Shovel Dig
 * not found at allmusic.com Other notability?
 * David LaMotte
 * minimal info at allmusic.com one&same?
 * Christine Kane
 * check (with specific ref. to Asheville in allmusic.com bio)
 * Mother Vinegar
 * not found
 * Paperboy
 * Unclear. Four variations on name.  No detailed bios on any of the four.
 * GFE
 * check North Carolina ref. in review
 * Reigning Sound
 * one&same?
 * Scrappy Hamilton
 * one&same?
 * SeepeopleS
 * check Asheville ref. in bio
 * Allison King
 * one&same? (plus I'm wondering if 4 background vox credits really amounts to notability)
 * Red Light Trio
 * one&same?

- Zeno Izen 18:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I see what you are going for with the "pruning" of the music section, I find your criteria to be a little too strict. (My fault, I'm afraid. I started the section.) The biggest reason it bothers me is that AllMusic is mostly for bands with label support, and doesn't really represent the local music flavor that Asheville is known for. These acts are usually limited to regional tours, and many established ones are still mostly known on an entirely indie level. Just because they aren't on a major label doesn't mean that they aren't legitimate, and I'd argue that one of the few places they are able to get the recognition they deserve is in a write up about the music scene of which they are a part.

It's that scene's active and vibrant nature, in fact, that's causing the problem. I'd suggest checking these acts against MySpace, iTunes and other indie music sites. That, or I'd strike having any proper names in the write-up. Or, I'd start a page wholly devoted to the Asheville music scene. No matter what you do, I'd suggest that this section will always be something of a popularity battleground. -- UnknownCity

GBLT community
Asheville has quite a large GBLT community, anyone think to add such statistics and points of interest to the article? Oni-dracula 22:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That would probbly be a fine addition to the article. Maybe, in the 'Demographics' section. Zeno Izen 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Schools
This sentance doesn't seem to provide any information unique or especially interesting to Asheville: "There are many opportunities as in other schools including sports (student-athletes must be making at least a C in all subjects), AIG (Academically/Intellectually Gifted), National History Day, Math Counts, Battle of the Books, Odyssey of the Mind, and Science Olympiad."

How is this different than any other city? Are these activities not available elsewhere? I think this sentance should be removed. Thoughts? Arx Fortis 17:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed and deletion made. - Zeno Izen 18:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Editing music section. Request for sources
Now that the list of musicians has been knocked down to a less cumbersome size, I suppose I'll try to make the main text of the section more encyclopedic. If anyone knows any good Asheville + Music sources on the web, please please PLEASE point me toward them. I don't have any Asheville books handy. My first Google search proved unhelpful. Clearly I'm going to need some input. - Zeno Izen 15:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Made major edits. Don't have time to do more right now. - Zeno Izen 17:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking good, Z. I made a few edits the other night.  The list doesn't seem to be as much of an eyesore. Arx Fortis 02:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I reverted (by copypaste) the text that was rewritten earlier. While not perfect, the previous text bore a reference, and the words used in that paragraph were all based on information found in that reference. Since the change to the unsourced text was done anonymously and without discussion, I can only assume that it was made by a random passerby.

Also, the multiple edits made it difficult for me to sort out exactly which words had been changed and how. So I just scooped up the original text and dropped it back in.

Thanks for barnstar Arx. And yeah the list looks a lot better. It will probably need to be maintained, though. -Zeno Izen 07:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Please review (tentative additions to history section)
Please take a look at the following and give me some input. This is working toward a cited history of Asheville.


 * Before the arrival of Europeans, the land lay within the boundaries of Cherokee country http://cherokeehistory.com/original.gif. In 1540, Spanish explorer Hernando DeSoto came to the area, bringing the first European visitors http://www.obcgs.com/ashv_hist.htm in addition to European diseases which seriously depleted the native population http://www.tolatsga.org/Cherokee1.html .  As the Cherokee were eventually dominated by European settlers, the area was used as an open hunting ground until the middle of the 19th century. http://www.asheville.be/history/Asheville_History_Pre_1800.html


 * The history of Asheville, as a town, begins in 1784. In that year Colonel Samuel Davidson and his family settled in the Swannanoa Valley, redeeming a soldier's land grant from the state of North Carolina.  Soon after building a log cabin at the bank of Christian Creek, Davidson was lured into the woods by a band of Cherokee hunters and killed.  Davidson's wife, child and female slave fled on foot to Davidson's Fort (named after Davidson's father General John Davidson) 16 miles away.


 * In response to the killing, Davidson's twin brother Major William Davidson and brother-in-law Colonel Daniel Smith formed an expedition to retrieve Samuel Davidson's body and avenge his murder. Months after the expedition, Major Davidson and other members of the his extended family returned to the area and settled at the mouth of Bee Tree Creek.  http://www.wnchistory.org/museum/droversroad.htm

-Zeno Izen 06:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

more:


 * Over the course of years, more settlers came to the area. The United States Census of 1790 counted 1,000 residents of the area, excluding the Cherokee.  The county of Buncombe was officially formed in 1792.  The county seat, named “Morristown” in 1793, was established on a plateau where two old Indian trails crossed.  In 1797 Morristown was incorporated and renamed “Asheville” after North Carolina Governor Samuel Ashe.  http://www.wnchistory.org/museum/droversroad.htm

-Zeno Izen 14:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

the history seems short and only limited to the origins, not necessarily the history. where is grove, originally planning on building grove park in swannanoa (became grovemont) to vanderbilt and his massive estate and "town" of (vander)biltmore? or is this just a bunch of information that needs to be written? or the "levelling" of the city from battery park to mccormick field?

another "oddity" of asheville is its choice to not default on debt from the depression saving many city landmarks that in other cities were destroyed in urban renewals. or the st lawrence basicilica built the largest unsupported tile dome in the US in a manner no one can figure out by Rafael Guastavino.

is this information worth writing to be added? i would hate to waste my time writing it only to have it pulled down.

Alphajerk 04:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There's plenty more that needs to be added to the history section. The small amount that I put together took me most of a day.  I started from the beginning, and would have gone to the end, but that little bit kind of burned me out.


 * All of the things that you've mentioned here seem very interesting. I'd like to see them included. The hard part is getting the sources.  But if you have some books or know some websites and don't mind taking a little time to figure out the citation templates, the rest is cake.  Or at least that's how it was for me.


 * As far as having anything pulled down, I can only speak for myself. I just want to see the article improve.  I think if your work is sourced, discussed somewhat and makes for a better article, it ought to stay.  -Zeno Izen 09:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

there are a few historical books on asheville, complete with pictures to verify the claims... and also well known history in this area. sorry, i havent had time to come back to this, i was a] busy with work and b] more than put off by the band section... that is a whole OTHER issue to itself, the last band list i saw the people on it MIGHT be on allmusic but arent notable from asheville or even possibly around anymore.... most of the notable artists here got deleted from the big list. if you really want to trim it down, just put Warren Haynes [despite him leaving asheville for nashville to succeed] because there are not really any other prominent musicians from here. Alphajerk 23:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Editing 'bands' section
Alphajerk, et al, ... You may be right! However, all of these issues have been discussed and a concensus has been reached. It is important to familiarize yourself with the manners of editing Wikipedia and the histories of any pages that you would like to make major edits to. Please read this discussion page (as you may have already) and look at these items:


 * Notability (music)
 * Sign your posts on talk pages
 * Verifiability

allmusic.com is not the end-all be-all verification for entries on the list of bands here, it's just a first-line source. Speaking only for myself, if there's a reasonable source supporting the notability of a band or performer, I'll leave it alone. But it's very important to discuss at least, or better yet cite, before you make changes, otherwise other editors will make additional changes that you may not like. (Actually, editors will make changes you don't like regardless of your best efforts. But if you've got Wikipedia policies and guideliness on your side, in addition to editor concensus, your own edits will eventually prevail.)

Good luck -Zeno Izen 21:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * allmusic is basically a database for whomever send in material to be put in... and even then they tend to get the information wrong in a lot of crediting cases (and sometimes bios). basically my point is, the title for the section IS "local bands" which denotes bands from the asheville area, and i dont think the ones that ARE listed are a good representation of the area (actually fairly poor), when the list was long, it was a much better representation despite complaints of it being too long. it wasnt self-promotional even with its length but the list made it look long. i think the list is a poor idea regardless of the consensus and doesnt tie in well with the film section and the film section isnt held to the same accountability as the music section.


 * i also happen to think right now wiki is quite shortsighted in their placement of music in society. local scenes are what used to make areas thrive with originality, although it seems homoginization is spreading even into places such as this. now i dont think pages should be made as advertisements but if kept to biographical forms like a lot of pages of music i have seen here it is so worth the effort of people to propogate the information. music is called the bastard child of the entertainment industry and it seems its illegitimacy is continuing on at wiki. thats fairly sad because the way this place actually works would make a great data base of bands, music and the formations that have occured in society.


 * i added back the band i was referring to after it was reverted, please leave them in place. allmusic takes submissions from ANYONE (and you can be sure they are getting a submission now, despite the band adhering to the already stated regulations of notability... bands like stephanies ID has NEVER played outside asheville as far as i know, although a nice band... but hardly adheres to the rules set forth yet remains].


 * im not trying to really argue but only debate my side and hope for a better representation of what ashevilles music scene really has to offer since it was included as a sub for the city here and is usually a pretty unique thing to here as well.... just because a consensus was reasched previously doesnt mean it is correct. i did notice the deletion of quite a few others that were most notable from this area, more than any currently on the list. it looks like the editing is done by people who might not be as aware of the music scene here. maybe you should trust peoples opinion who are more involved in it.

Alphajerk 04:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You're correct, just because a concensus was reached, doesn't mean it is correct. Sometimes concensus is the best we can do, though.  More importantly, just because a concensus was reached, doesn't mean that the discussion is closed, either.


 * You bring up a lot of complicated issues and questions. I don't have all the answers.  I'm going to try to address a few points here, though.


 * I agree with a few things that you say (that the 'bands' list is not representative of Asheville, that the standards are not the same for the bands list and the films list). I'm not sure that I like the paragraph format for listing anything at all.  But the list format isn't maybe not all that appropriate either.


 * Personally, all I really care about is that the section does not become a depository of shout-outs from various fly-by-night musical outfits. Bands come and go. And in this day and age, it's possible for a single individual to  produce lots of music under multiple names.  A local-music subsection could go on for pages, really, for any town the size of Asheville.


 * (I'm writing all this off the cuff. Let me try to wind things up for now...)


 * I'll concede your point regarding allmusic.com. I don't know anything about the website.  It was offered as a tool for making decisions.  Seemed okay to me.  With that said, I'll leave your additions to the list.  I can't control what anyone else does. Politely, though, I'd like to ask that you offer some alternatives for deciding the 'notability' of any band added to this article.


 * Also, I think the issue needs more discussion. Plus also, someone ought to look at how other articles about similar-sized American towns deal with this. -Zeno Izen 09:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe that I first suggested that www.allmusic.com be used as a source. I want to clear a few things up.  Allmusic is not basically a database which is just made up of submissions made by readers/users.  Wikipedia better fits that description.  Allmusic is a database which is an authoritative source of information.  Libraries carry the print versions, such as Allmusic Guide to Rock (and Jazz, etc.).  The reviews are well-written and often quoted elsewhere.  Of course there are errors.  No source is error-free.


 * Secondly, the list of bands looked like a list of bands who play local clubs. One person even mentioned that he had heard of most of these bands, so they should remain on the list.  That's somewhat subjective.  Anybody who visits Asheville clubs regularly would have heard of these bands.  That doesn't make the bands notable.


 * I don't know much about Stephanie's ID, and I have no personal stake in the success of that band (or any of these bands), but 30 seconds of research on the web indicated to me that they do play outside of Asheville, and they do have an entry, however meager, at allmusic.com--


 * It's just important to be civil and open-minded. I hope we can continue to make the page better.  Mr Frosty 15:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I just deleted a bunch of band names that were added by an anonymous editor. My apologies to anyone who's legitimate edits may have been collatorally damaged. (Though I think I managed to delete only what I was aiming for.) You'll have to add it back it, I guess.

I refrained from deleting "By Morning," or even checking up on the notability of the band. I'm feeling less aggressive about the band list issue than I was earlier. That Film & TV section, however, is beginning to get on my last nerve.

Hopefully I'll get some time in the next few weeks to add more to the history section. If I do, I'll make a special effort to add in some of those interesting things that you mentioned earlier, Alphajerk. Hopefully. yayaya -Zeno Izen 08:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been following the music/band list debate with some interest here; I would suggest a look at the Chapel Hill page as an example of a potential reorganization of the music, film and culture-related sections of this article. I'd make the suggestion as Chapel Hill has a similar history as a culture-heavy town in NC, with a lot of grassroots activity, some of which has risen to regional or national prominence, and some of which hasn't. On that page, the idea was to simply provide an encyclopedia-standard overview written effectively enough (NO POV) to lead any interested parties toward further research on their own:  of hundreds of bands, artists, writers in the area, I don't think more than 5-10 of each are mentioned specifically, while the overall article makes clear that an abundance of activity is going on, just unmentioned in the interest of keeping the page/article organized, readable, and within the evolving standards of what all NC city articles look like.

As for those standards, I've done a tiny bit of mostly grammatical work on most of the major city NC pages (I've lived in Charlotte, Boone, Chapel Hill and Carrboro, and have spent a lot of time in Asheville, Wilmington and Greenville); I'd love to see one organizational standard for all the "top 20" NC city articles. The Asheville article is one of the better ones. Davidals 10:26, 2 October 2006 (EDT)

concerning "Asheville is also home to newly developing underground independent music scene. Showcased by 1under records, the scene constists of "acousticore" musicians such as Michael Burgin, C@B, IOSIA, and Jonah Michea Judy as well an eclectic roster of bands including Circatree, The Icarus Construct, Zoo Logic and more". This is not a relevant listing. I am local and have only heard of one of the bands. Appears to be self promotion by iunder records.

I agree; it appears to be self-promotion. It's too bad that some folks think Wikipedia should be a promotional tool for bands they support or bands they like, instead of an informational source. Mr Frosty 16:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This reads like a press release.
Asheville is my hometown, but this article seems gushy and canned. It's like the Chamber of Commerce wrote it. I don't think it neccesarily violates NPOV or encyclopedic tone, but it certainly feels wrong to me.


 * I agree. Most Ashevillians are rather proud of their city; This article does display bias.  Perhaps specific sections/sentances can be cited before a re-vamp of the article commences? Arx Fortis 06:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Another agreement. I added the "metropolitan area" section a while back, and have otherwise refrained from making changes.  The lists should be rethought - it's common to city articles on WikiPedia in general, but lengthy lists really make articles look silly and amateurish.  If there's enough material to throw a list together, the entire section could be spun off into a more thorough article. --Davidals 01:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Founded city?
Someone added "who founded the city" to the end of the second paragraph. Can a source be provided? Arx Fortis 06:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Has this been fixed? I don't see it. Zeno Izen 23:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Outline?
Errm... It's gotten quiet here.

It seems to me that the linking war is only a symptom of larger problems with this article. Much of the "writing" here consists of listing links and promotional factoids. For example, the following breathless passage is hardly "General Information" (where it is now): "In the year 1900, author Thomas Wolfe was born in Asheville. Author F. Scott Fitzgerald lived and worked in Asheville during some of his literary career. His wife, Zelda, died in a fire in an Asheville sanitarium in 1948. In 1933, actress Eileen Fulton was born in Asheville. In 1939, singer Roberta Flack was born in the city.[10] In 2005 alleged bomber Eric Robert Rudolph was transported to Asheville from Murphy, North Carolina for arraignment in federal court. In September 2004, major flooding was reported in town, particularly at Biltmore Village, due to rains from the remnants of Hurricane Frances and Hurricane Ivan." May I suggest that, after the article is unblocked, the article should be thoroughly reorganized according to an outline? I suggest including: Geography, History, Demographics, Metropolitan area, Government, Economy, Education, Media, Transportation, Arts and culture, Sports and recreation, Notable natives and residents (to include people like Thomas Wolfe who may be mentioned elsewhere in the article), Sister cities, References, and External links.

Some items will need to be moved. For example, the sentence "Asheville is home to University of North Carolina at Asheville, a liberal arts college of about 3500 students (part of the University of North Carolina System), and Asheville-Buncombe Technical Community College" should be moved into Education. --orlady 00:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Music & Film
I think that the best way to solve the bands problems is simply to say that the city has an active music scene, and leave it at that. When I originally added the section, I assumed that people would be willing to set aside their petty differences and get along, but that's very obviously not happening. Ditto with the films list, which was added largely because people around here are so invested in the idea that we're a movie-making community. It's a shame that the Wiki model doesn't work in these cases. — UnknownCity, 15:16, 29 December 2006


 * As I see it, the issue is not that there is a perceived problem with music and film as topics (in fact, they are potentially important topics), but rather that discussions of these topics have written in a manner more consistent with a promotional brochure (or perhaps weekly newspapers) than an encyclopedia article. Statements like "the city has an active music scene", "Asheville is a regional hotspot for live music", and "recent developments are cementing Asheville as a potential growth area for both film and TV" are not encyclopedia-like. It ought to be possible to present this information in an objective manner. For example (this example uses totally made-up data), say "As of 2006, about 30 local clubs presented live music on a regular basis" [insert reference citation to a newspaper article from which this information was taken]. Also, the list of films and TV shows produced locally could be converted to something like (again this is made-up): "The first movie filmed on location in Asheville was Bedtime for Bozo (1978). Film and video production activity increased in the years 1980 to 1985, when eight major movies were filmed locally (list them) and the ABC TV series Asheville is for Ashes was produced in the city." --orlady 05:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

For the most part, I'd agree. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that there's any way around people chopping up the section and using it to promote their bands. Likewise, if you start posting links to articles about the subject, it's very likely that it'll get chopped out by someone accusing the editor of promoting whatever newspaper it's linking to. I could be wrong, but it seems very lose-lose to be anything other than very vague. After all, it's not like there's going to be census data on the number of bands around here. You could cite, say, MySpace for the number of active local bands, but I'm not sure any of this information would be considered truly viable in the sense you're talking about. --Unknowncity


 * As I see it, and since previous criteria were met with resistance, I agree that the section should mention the active scene and be done with it. In that light I propose it be written thus:


 * Live music is a significant element in the tourism-based economy of Asheville and the surrounding area. Seasonal festivals and numerous nightclubs offer opportunities for visitors and locals to attend a wide variety of live entertainment events, to the point that the town has been compared to both New Orleans, Louisiana and Nashville, Tennessee. 


 * Asheville is host to numerous clubs and performance venues. Outdoor festivals, such as Bele Chere and the Lexington Avenue Arts & Fun Festival, feature local music. One of the most popular annual events is "Shindig on the Green," which happens Saturday nights during July and August on City/County Plaza. By tradition, the Shindig starts "along about sundown" and features local bluegrass bands and dance teams on stage, and informal jam sessions under the trees surrounding the County Courthouse.


 * DJ music, as well as a small, but active, dance community are also components of the downtown musical landscape. The town is also home to the Asheville Symphony and the Asheville Lyric Opera and there are a number of bluegrass, country, and traditional mountain musicians in the Asheville area.


 * This removes any mention of specific bands and clubs. Any thoughts?  ++ Arx Fortis 01:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Arx Fortis: Good work, although I do have some concerns. First -- and it's a minor point -- that Asheville's music scene hasn't been seriously compared to that of New Orleans or Nashville. Those are both huge cities, and their recording and music industries actually contribute a subtantial amount of revenue to the local economy. Asheville's music scene, by contrast, only just supports itself. In terms of size and commercial success, it's more on par with, say, the Chapel Hill music scene of two decades ago. We have only a handful of venues of any size (and no truly large venues), no major acts are based here (although a number of mid-level performers either have been, or have members who are), and there are no commercially significant recording studios in the area (although there are several good ones). That's not to say that the scene isn't important, I'm just trying to give it some scale for this discussion.

Secondly, what if Stella Blue or the Orange Peel suddenly put up a Wiki page? Shouldn't there be a method to refer to it? Would they then be wrong in editing the music section to include that internal link? Wouldn't it then start to get out of hand again? The more I think about it, the more I'm of the belief that the Asheville music scene either needs the barest mention -- even more spare than yours -- or that it needs its own page completely. -- UnknownCity


 * UnknownCity, thank you for your comments and you make some good points. I agree with your point about New Orleans/Nashville.  Asheville's 'music scene' is not even close to that of those two cities and I doubt a credible source could be found that makes a fair comparison.  (edit: To clarify, I do not consider the Asheville Citizen-Times a credible source on this point; it should be an outside source.)  This should be removed (or edited if the comparison is cited/referenced).


 * To your second point, Stella Blue or Orange Peel shouldn't be putting up their own wiki article...that would be considered Original Research (WP:OR). Let's suppose, however, that someone did create an article for one of those local venues.  The venue would need to be noteable enough (WP:NOTE and WP:LOCAL) to be considered encyclopedic.  The guidelines would be compared against the article and its sources.  ++ Arx Fortis 18:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Aside from removing the New Orleans/Nashville comparison, is there any more discussion on this? ++ Arx Fortis 15:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Section edited as shown above plus suggested editing. ++ Arx Fortis 06:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This discussion page

 * This discussion page is getting rather large. Because I'm not sure how to do it myself, and I don't have the time to look it up, I'd like to offer a motion to archive this discussion page and start fresh. Zeno Izen 21:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I archived most of 2006 discussions (except for those still ongoing). I will archive more later. ++ Arx Fortis 01:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, this is also amusing
I'm not really sure what this is referring to, but I'm sure some here will be interested.

["Asheville's wiki war"] Zeno Izen 06:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You can't see it so much on this page, but take a look at the "History" page to see the furious editing/re-editing/counter-editing that caused the page to be locked. -- UnknownCity


 * Yay, my day in the spotlight. :| --Golbez 10:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I was just looking at another Wikipedia page, and I had a thought. When "external links" are posted that seem to be spam, an editor might choose to remove said links outright.  Another useful tactic to consider might be to edit the description of the link.  Example: "adspammaddness.com - An ad-heavy commercial site with links to Asheville businesses."


 * It's just an idea, but if the tactic is used judiciously, it might be a means toward averting edit wars. Zeno Izen 20:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Celebrities
The information about famous people with ties to Asheville seems a bit abrupt. I think that this portion of the article needs to be edited to make a distinct paragraph, perhaps adding a topic sentence and transitions to pull it together and make it flow with the rest of the article.


 * Noted. The article as a whole needs work, however. So, it may be some time before that particular portion receives attention. (Unless of course you want to jump in there and handle it yourself. (Clumsy hint.)) - Zeno Izen 15:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

When the current editing block is removed, I hope someone links to Wilma Dykeman (an article I started following her recent death). --orlady 00:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Famous residents" is getting long, I removed a few entries that I could find little information on. I'm starting to think it should be removed outright. Any suggestions?? -- BreezyB 06:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

What does everyone think, should 'Famous residents-current' include only people who currently live in Asheville now, or everyone who has ever lived in the town (as the article currently includes)? 152.132.10.134


 * Personally, I think the "famous" or "notable residents" sections should be removed or at least significantly trimmed from every city-oriented article. From what I can see, the larger cities don't tend to have these lists (see Phoenix, Arizona, Chicago, Illinois, Atlanta, Georgia, and Seattle, Washington).  It's mainly the articles on smaller cities that have the lists (see Greenville, South Carolina, Knoxville, Tennessee, Hoffman Estates, Illinois, and Hillsboro, Oregon).  Every time I see one of these lists it seems like pure braggadocio - as if the the city itself has some claim to the person's success or notability.


 * In my opinion, the only notable residents listed should be those whose notability ties in with the city. In the case of Asheville, Thomas Wolfe (whose literary works often implied Asheville), and George Vanderbilt (due to the notability of the nearby Biltmore Estate) could be acceptable to keep.  However, if the person's notability is not linked to the city, and they just happen to have been born there or live(d) there, they should be removed from the article (example: Harry Anderson, a relatively recent arrival to Asheville).  In my opinion, this should be the standard for every article about a city, town, state, nation, etc.  ++Arx Fortis 21:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the larger cities basically do have them: see List of people from Seattle, List of people from the Phoenix metropolitan area, etc.. But since they have so many, a seperate page was needed. Smaller cities tend to have fewer (some sort of population correlation I'm sure), so no need for a seperate article. Aboutmovies 07:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Arx Fortis, "if the person's notability is not linked to the city, and they just happen to have been born there or live(d) there, they should be removed from the article". The list is really out of hand and IS clearly "pure braggadocio". Can we vote on this? AVLann (talk) 02:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In reviewing the list again, it looks like it's becoming longer and longer. I think we can slim it down using basic Wikipedia guidelines plus a little common sense, especially as relates to the living:
 * 1. Is the person notable enough that they have their own article?
 * 2. Does the person actually live in Asheville (currently) and not some nearby community?
 * 3. Does the person's fame derive from Asheville, did they "get their start" in Asheville, or does the person hold some significance to Asheville in general?
 * 4. Can we cite a credible source that the person lives in Asheville?
 * If we can't answer yes to all four of these questions regarding the living "famous residents", then they should be removed.
 * Thoughts? ++Arx Fortis (talk) 07:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there no discussion on this? If not, I will start to cull the list of residents to those who meet the above criteria.  In further support of this, I should note that notability is not temporary.  Just because someone famous lives in Asheville now, does not mean they will in the future.  Unless a person's residency in a town can be linked to the above criteria, I don't see how their residency can be considered notable. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 01:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I with you on this for sure, Arx. All of these list categories tend to get a little out of control, so clearly outlined limits and/or standards etc. are necessary.  I would only add that a person's notability is not temporary, but their place of residence can be.  Someone of extreme notability might "live" in Asheville for a short time and it would be right to include that person here.  But someone of less notability would have to make a more permanent stay to merit inclusion.  Does that make sense?  Zeno Izen (talk) 17:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * chop chop CHOP away Arx! please! hooray! :)

Suggestion re: magazine articles
The third pgraph of the General Information section, there is a list (in pgraph form) of magazine articles that mention Asheville. I think it would be more informative to include the publication years of the articles in the actual paragraph. The problem is that simply sticking the years in there will make the paragraph look very cluttered. There are already a lot of quotation marks and citation numerals in the paragraph, and the addition of four-digit years would probably take the text over the edge into serious eyesore territory. Yet, we surely don't need another bulleted list in the article.

Dilemma! Any suggestions? Zeno Izen 20:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it would suffice to say that Asheville has received significant media coverage in the media, then simply use citations for the sentance to give some examples (no more than 3-4 of the most significant articles). ++Arx Fortis 05:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Precipitation
I don't know how to work this URL into the body of the article, or a link to it, but here it is: http://cirrus.dnr.state.sc.us/cgi-bin/sercc/cliMAIN.pl?nc0301  Asheville gets about 37 inches of precip per year (not the 80-100 inches claimed in the article, so I removed that "fact"). Some areas in the WNC mountains get much more precipitation than does Asheville. The Highlands area is a good example. But that rain falls on Highlands, not on Asheville. Mr Frosty 16:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Smashing Pumpkins
A user (24.178.172.145) has deleted the same information from this article three times (5 July, 9 July, and 24 July). The user has not given any reason for the deletion. The 9-day launch of a well known band's national tour in Asheville certainly meets WP:NOTABILITY for this article and is cited. It should be noted that the same user added information on a different music venue in Asheville. This gives the appearance of a conflict-of-interest on the part of that user. After first warning the user, I have now asked the user to stop removing the information and to present their reason(s) for deletion on this page. ++Arx Fortis 23:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Article assessment: B-class
I have assessed this article as B-class, with a mid-level importance to WP:CITIES. Mid-importance because, despite a population lower than 200,000, it is nonetheless a major population/industrial/business city in western north carolina.

I think this article is better than Start-class because it has a significant amount of information, and has started to assemble information into reasonably good categories. However, there is still quite a bit of work done before the article meets the Good article criteria, primarily on the prose, organization, and completeness factors. The lead section is also very short -- it should provide an adequate summary of the article -- but it does have some of the basics: population, metro area size, rough location. Consider nuking the 'general information' section, and move much of that info into the lead, or to other areas of the article, as appropriate.

The first four main sections should roughly follow this order: History, Geography & Climate, Demographics, Economy. Transportation can be moved nearer to the end of the article, and possibly included as a subsection under 'Infrastructure', adding to that info on local utilities, communications, and hospitals.

The 'Metropolitan Area' section can be included under 'Geography'. Add population history (many other cities have a table with populations every decade for this) as well as information on crime, to the 'demographics' section.

Consider moving the list of famous residents to a separate page, linking to it under 'see also'.

Combine the 'local culture' section with the list of 'points of interest' into one section called 'arts and culture'. Expand. Include photos. This section shouldn't be a list at all -- write out descriptions and significance as prose. Arts and culture should probably fall, in the order of sections, right after 'economy'. The article, of course, does lack an economy section. A description of the business and industry in Asheville should be included. Provide more than just a listing of major corporations and fortune 500 companies.


 * Much thanks Dr. Cash! This gives us an excellent starting point. ++Arx Fortis 23:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That should give some good information to get you started. Hope that helps. Consider also looking at some of the info at WP:CITIES for guidelines on city articles. Cheers! Dr. Cash 21:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm about to make an edit...
I haven't touched this page in a while, but I've just noticed a large block of text in the history section that would do well broken up into a couple of paragraphs, and also needs some citations. I will make the lightest possible edits here for the sake of readability and also add some 'ref' tags. Zeno Izen 17:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

South College?
I can't be 100% certain (or else I'd remove it) but I'm going to go ahead and accuse "South College-Asheville" of being an online "degree - granting - institute" having little to (most likely) no connection to Asheville, barely deserving of it's "college" moniker, and far less deserving of inclusion on this page. Regardless of that, since it's a stock webpage generated by colleges.us.com, it shouldn't be included outside of external links, and since it's a marketing scam anyway, probably not there either. I'll remove it in a week if no one protests.Gh05t (talk) 23:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Now removed.Gh05t (talk) 23:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's a real school, located on US 25, and should be included. They now offer a four-year nursing degree as well as several two-year degrees. They have another campus in Knoxville, TN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.157.131 (talk) 04:50, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Although small, it is a real college with a real campus It was originally known as Cecil's Junior College, founded 1905. More info here (see "School Notes" section). ++Arx Fortis (talk) 16:00, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

FYI: Archiving
An archive of this page was established some time ago. Rather than manually archiving the page, I've setup MiszaBot to do it. I've set the bot to archive any discussions that have not had any activity for longer than 180 days. Archived discussions can be accessed via the link at the top of the page. Thanks to Zeno Izen for pointing out the need for another round of archiving. :) ++Arx Fortis (talk) 16:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 15:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Census" :
 * Population Finder: Asheville, North Carolina. U.S. Census Bureau, 2005 Population Estimates. Accessed February 10, 2007.
 * Population Finder: Asheville, North Carolina. U.S. Census Bureau, 2006 Population Estimates. Accessed February 10, 2007.

I have corrected this issue. The estimate year was different (2005/2006) for each citation. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 19:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

City Council section
Is all the information about the city council members prudent? This information is subject to change each election cycle. Basic information about the structure of the council and perhaps the names of its members is one thing. To list all of the other information seems like overkill. This is an article about Asheville, not the Asheville City Council. The section reads more like promotional material than an encyclopedia article. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Paris of the South
I know this is an Asheville page, but New Orleans hardly claims the nickname "Paris of the South". While my personal experience made the notation jump out at me as blatantly incorrect, I understand I must use something other than my 35 years of living there to prove such. Unfortunately, when trying to prove a negative you are going have difficulty to prove no one has called any city south of the Mason-Dixon with a museum or two artists the Paris of the South at some point. If you Google ["paris of the south" "new orleans" -asheville -charlotte -buenos -hotel -savannah], to eliminate cities that have claimed that name, you will find there are only 47 times on Google that it's ever used (You must click the last page of results to eliminate mirrored websites). And even using that, I couldn't eliminate some results actually referring to another city, such as Barcelona, as the PotS. Tourist websites, the same ones that will swear there is really a "house of the rising sun" in New Orleans and that ghosts regularly roam the French Quarter, are not credible for citation. Just about any plausible nickname has been applied to New Orleans. If you want to see, Google ["New Orleans" Saintsland], something I just came up with, and you find that my created nickname is even more popular in reference to New Orleans than Paris of the South. Plus, I seriously doubt this nickname would last very long if placed on Wikipedia's main New Orleans page, or any longer than my created "Saintsland". Mdlawmba (talk) 12:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It's better for the quality of the page if it's just left open. If we choose to make this a list of "Paris of the South" cities, there too many other towns and cities that deserve and should be listed. Mdlawmba (talk) 12:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Your decision to unilaterally revert the copious books, magazines, and web pages where this title is listed is quite puzzling. As I have previously stated, your personal experience cannot be used as a "source" or reason for removing assertions that are clearly documented by separate, distinct, published, verifiable, reliable sources.  Your actions are clearly against WP:NOR.  (Read 2nd to last paragraph).  Do not revert this edit further.   ++Arx Fortis (talk) 13:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I have provided ample reasoning, other than personal, to remove the particular city, and more than adequate reason for this page to not become a list of cities that are likewise referred to by that name. In addition, I believe I offered a very reasonable and attractive alternative in just stating several southern cities use the name. This is a very popular nickname for many southern cities both in the "The South" and internationally. There is a reason a list page of city nicknames exists, and it's so people don't list every possible nickname of a city, much less cities that share nicknames.  Please do not take the edit personally, which I'm sure Wikipedia has a page devoted to as well. Mdlawmba (talk) 14:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Your reasoning is flawed. The two reasons you've stated are: 1.  You lived in New Orleans for 35 years and never heard it called Paris of the South.  2. You did a questionable google search where you eliminated the mention of other specific cities.     Your first reason is clearly Original Research and is not acceptable.  Your second reason is flawed in that you eliminated any results that would have had any mention of other cities that also share the name.  Moreover, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - to argue that position is a logical fallacy (see the article Argument from Ignorance)  , Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that relies on verifiable sources.  I have listed books, magazines, and other reliable sources.  Unless you can establish that each and every one of those many sources is not reliable, the mention should stand.   I am referring this issue for administrator intervention based on your violation of the WP:3RR three revert rule. ++Arx Fortis (talk) 14:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, hopefully we can move on from the accusation of edit warring now that myself and Arx were both warned and there clearly was not a violation of the three revert rule. I would like to have some third-party opinions as to whether this should be just a statement such as "The Paris of the South (also used by several other southern cities)", as I have revised it or a list of other cities that use the "Paris of the South" nickname.  Note that the  "other southern cities" can be reworded to link to the [List_of_city_nicknames_in_the_United_States] so if you want to find other cities using the name you can just click and browse your heart's desire.  The linked page is not extensive, but it can be updated to include our research.  Please note that including the list of cities using the name is extensive and includes:

Atlanta, Augusta  , and Savannah , Georgia; Birmingham and Mobile Alabama; Charleston , South Carolina; Buenos Aires  , Argentina; Aix-en-Provence and Toulouse , France; and Barcelona , Spain among other.

I see no reason to list other cities using the name, but rather a simplified statement, but I am opening this up to discussion. I look forward to the opinions of disinterested third-parties. Mdlawmba (talk) 14:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * This is a vanity issue that needs to be left off. While Asheville is indeed a very beautiful city, it is hardly Paris. This doesn't really inform the reader of anything and comes across as being the cause of a lame edit war. It is better left cut from the article entirely since it really isn't important and looks precocious. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 15:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Places of worship
The new section "Places of worship" was removed with the following edit summary: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asheville%2C_North_Carolina&action=historysubmit&diff=323504449&oldid=323200658 Removing section. There are literally HUNDREDS of these in AVL. This is an encyclopedia, not a directory. This section is nothing but a magnet for lameness as every local adds his own] I note that this article has, for example, a list of various schools including "Claxton Elementary, Hall Fletcher Elementary, Isaac Dickson Elementary, Ira B. Jones Elementary, and Vance Elementary". I also note the article has a lengthy list of various famous or not-so-famous people who have lived at one point in Asheville, or, in some cases, live "adjacent to" or "near" Asheville. I also note that the article devotes many lines to various minor league sports teams, including, for example, a full line to the "Asheville Aces", a hockey team that played in the 7-team "Southern Professional Hockey League", and existed for exactly one year. I also note that the article gives long, unsourced lists of various television programs and motion pictures that were "made at least partially in the area". So, it's clear that any concerns about that "Places of worship" section being a "directory" of "lameness" relies on very inconsistent definitions of the terms.

As to the specific "lame" section, it had exactly three items in it. Note, all the places of worship in the section have Wikipedia articles (unlike, say, the schools listed in this article). Thus any concerns that HUNDREDS of these will be added are unwarranted. At some point there might be as many as 7 or 8 articles on Asheville places of worship, but there certainly won't be HUNDREDS. Therefore, I am restoring this reasonable and informative section. Jayjg (talk) 01:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. clariosophic (talk) 01:48, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

a former resident
John Evans Brown was a 19th century Member of Parliament in New Zealand. A native Pennsylvanian, he returned to the US in his later years and settled in Asheville. I've written an article about him, but there's little known in New Zealand sources about his later life. Maybe some Asheville locals could help by looking for an obituary etc. Thanks a lot.  Schwede 66  23:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Reference 25
The sentence has nothing to do with ref 25. Is there anywhere this is backed up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.103.18 (talk • contribs)


 * I think it correctly references the Frommer's claim? feydey (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Nicknames
Please stop edit warring over the nicknames. If you have a reliable source that shows a nickname, you can put it in, otherwise, please stop vandalizing the page. I also took out the sentence about the Berkeley reference as is not a real nickname of the city, but something suggested by the author of the article referenced. Thank you -- JoannaSerah (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Beer City
ALSO......................... ............................. there needs to be something about Asheville being Beer City USA 3 years in a row / supporting a large number of microbreweries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.69.48 (talk) 01:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No, there doesn't really. I just took out the paragraph about it since the only references cited were spam links. Also, the source of this award is an online poll by the readers of Examiner.com. This can't be used as a source since it is not considered a reliable source and the site is on Wikipedia's external link blacklist. Thank you -- JoannaSerah (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Although I'm slightly concerned about the possibility of a sock here, it seems to me as though since it's mentined by the Citizen-Times and the Mountain XPress several times, and is mentioned in several books, that it should be mentioned in the article. Dougweller (talk) 21:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I had been searching for it, but hadn't run across that yet for the few books. If there are Citizen-Times or Mountain Xpress articles mentioning it, then, yeah that would be a reliable source to me. Most of the links I had found at first were just Examiner.com articles or spam/advert links. The references in the article here were just to spam links. But if anyone else wants to add it with RS, that's fine by me. Thank you -- JoannaSerah (talk) 03:58, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Culture
I believe that more could be added to this page about the culture of Asheville. Rinnibeck (talk) 15:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)rinnibeckRinnibeck (talk) 15:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Units for Urban Area and Metro Area in sidebar
"Urban" and "Metro" are lines in the sidebox, but there are no units. What are they? Number of people? A ratio? A casual reader not familiar with demographics has no way of knowing this, even after clicking through to the linked Urban Area article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarheelcoxn (talk • contribs) 02:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Obamas
White House denies Obamas have bought post-presidency dream home in North Carolina town known for its wealthy 'Trustafarians' by David Martosky; 9 June 2014.--Artaxerxes 01:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

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