Talk:Ashley Williams (Mass Effect)

Comments by Chris L'Etoile and Shamus Young

 * I see nothing in WP:SPS that would make the forum posts unusable. It clearly fits Identifying_and_using_self-published_works, an expert on the topic. And it is a widely known information about L'Etoile that he uses the nickname Stormwaltz, I can google the name together with the nickname to easily find a number of pages confirming that, so I can easily add more non-self-published citations for that. I see no reasonable doubt about the origin of the posts - the account is registered, interacts repeatedly with others who know that Stormwaltz is nickname of L'Etoile (that google search shows this was known at least in 2004), and has insider information (talking about ME2 accepting ME1 saves a year before the game was released). What other plausible explanation for the post can there be? Llunak (talk) 05:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As for Shamus Young, Amazon in fact lists several of his books, including one that's specifically about Mass Effect. And he's cited in the Reception section for Urdnot_Wrex. Not that I see why having a book would matter here, people from other cited sources presumably have not written any books, yet are cited. I linked him because he's apparently spent a lot of time on the topic, and his article includes conversation quotations from the game, which cannot be said about the other sources.Llunak (talk) 05:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes a reliable source according to Wikipedia's standards, and why articles by individual journalists or contributors who write for a reputable source can be cited and used, even though the journalists themselves are often not considered independently notable in their own right to warrant a Wikipedia article. I highly recommend that you thoroughly read Reliable sources as it contains vital information on guidelines and policies for productive editing.


 * The problem is that a direct quotation of forum or Reddit posts is often problematic to utilize. This is not the same instance as the way BioWare staff used the official BioWare Social Network message board to conduct their business, like direct announcements or updates about their games or answering impromptu questions from fans. Staff forum accounts were (from memory) clearly identified by their full names. I am not saying that what you said about L'Etoile's forum identity and his activities on these message boards is factually incorrect or that I don't find the commentary interesting, I am saying that the connections you are making is original research, because no reliable source I am aware of, however marginal, has drawn attention to the connection between L'Etoile, the Stormwaltz user handle, and his comments about Ashley's reception. Per the link you've provided,


 * Basically, you are saying Wikipedia should cite the opinions of random, anonymous forum users who drew these connections because you, a Wikipedia editor, has verified these claims. If that information is as widely known as you are claiming, other reliable sources should have picked up on that by now, and there is no shortage of writeups and even academic dissertations about the Mass Effect series all over the internet these days. Because the information you are proposing to include does not comply with the requirements of WP:OR and WP:V, both of which are non-negotiable policies, I am afraid I have to oppose their inclusion here as it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia article. I'm not sure what Mass Effect Wikia/Fandom's views are on verification and original research, but maybe you can post all that info on the character's article there instead. As it stands, Chris Thursten's articles about the character and that Italian source are the only ones I can find which represent a dissenting view against a generally negative consensus concerning the character, a fact that Stormwaltz, if he is indeed Chris L'Etoile, has acknowledged.


 * I've checked Shamus Young's publications, and they all appear to be self-published, or released through a vanity press outlet like Lulu.com. Another quote, While this isn't an exceptional claim, I see no evidence that Shamus Young's fictional writings have been published by a reliable third-party publication and his book-length analysis about Mass Effect appears to be self-published as well, unlike say Jason Schreier who used to write for Kotaku and has authored books on the video game industry. As for the article cited for Urdnot Wrex's reception, it was published by The Escapist, but that does not mean it automatically confers the status of a subject matter expert to Young, as reliability hinges on the The Escapist's editorial standards. It would be a different story if his writing work about the Mass Effect series, whether for The Escapist or another source, had been widely cited by other reliable sources, and that includes his self-published Mass Effect book. Haleth (talk) 06:40, 30 July 2021 (UTC)