Talk:Asian fetish/Archive 1

Usually it is people who take personal shots at other editors becuase they have nothing to say with any substance on the actual article content.

Fetish vs. philia
Do the points brought up here have any merit?--Daveswagon 20:58, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Removed statements
This article is totally lame and obviously written by a geek who can't get a date except for an Asian woman (ANY ASIAN WOMAN WILL DO) who thinks he walks on water because he doesn't treat her like a second class citizen.

"Some areas claim not to think of WM/AF as an interracial relationship. However, would it be the same if the male was Black or Latino?"

"And if the reverse, Asian Male/White Female was common, would it have be considered an interracial couple?"

They need to be revised. As stated, they're conjectural and could be offensive. --Mitsukai 07:52, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Could be offensive? The whole article is offensive. (Perhaps its intention)

POV
This article is totally POV, and inflammatory. Does Wikipedia have a page for n***** or k***? This term is mostly internet chatroom fodder and is not in currency in the real media or the real world.

Some recommendations: 1. Delete it and be gone with it 2. Merge it into a larger article about IR couples or Asian American slang, racial stereotypes or whatever 3. Clean it up and put more criticism. But the existence of the article and the title is already a kind of POV. I can imagine, for instance, the Klu Klux Klan would love creating articles with all sort of 'funny' titles that are derogatory and essentially not encyclopedic.


 * Actually Wikipedia does have an article on nigger (word). You're welcome to propose a rewrite here. Furthermore you're encouraged to get an ID instead of using anonymous edits.  Samw 00:18, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * To clarify, this article is not really POV, it is about "a particular POV" that an article is written about. Also, I do believe that an article about the word "kike" should be made, just as there is one about the word "nigger"--these are etymological subjects.  Now, if anyone here wants to play the race card by crying "POV", then try to take me on... but before you do you must know that I am an American, and unlike the Anglo-Saxon eurotrash I've dealt with before, I'm prepared to play hardball. Sweetfreek 02:01, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Ok, so we can make a page called "rice dick" and "asian dick" and other negative stereotypes about Asian males and no one will object????? LOL!! I'm sure you'd be the first to jump in to vandalize. What shameless hypocrisy. Otherwise this article is simply the work of some KKK type bigots, probably bitter Asian males, opposed to "race mixin" who promote their bigot world view by spoiling an encyclopedia. Oh, and drop the attitude, little boy, this is a place for adults not insecure adolescents.


 * By your statement, you're hardly acting any better.


 * I'm sorry, but it is very much in currency, both in the media and real world. Maxim magazine, Slate,  and various other real-world news outlets have done articles on "Tokyo Joe" or "Peking Tom" syndrome (I'll have to find the exact articles so I can post them online).  It's not just some BS that one sees in a chatroom.  And even if it was inflammatory and offensive, just as the racial slurs are, the purpose of an encyclopedia is to list this sort of information, whether right or wrong.  Encyclopedias, even online ones like Wiki, exist to chronicle the world and all its colors (no pun intended), right or wrong. --Mitsukai 04:32, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * That's currency? You read an article somewhere at sometime which you can't find?


 * Yes, it is. Simply because if it was notable enough for me to remember it, then I should think so.  Of course, you're welcome to give an opposing view in the article.  Furthermore, as was mentioned earlier, you're also encouraged to sign up for a user name so that you don't give the appearance of trolling, which, if I may suggest, you may be doing now. --Mitsukai 12:22, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yawn. Wikipedia explicitly allows editing by anyone. If you don't like the policy, campaign against it. But labeling someone as a troll simply because it goes against your political view is a little silly. A pointless argument distracting us from the main point, which is that this article is heavily POV. Even the title implies a psychological condition for something that was once labeled miscegnatin or however you spell that. Very unecyclopedic. I suggest you and other try to make a compromise and revise the article instead of just "playing hardball" like someone childishly put it.


 * banana and egg warrant having their own pages on the grounds that they are reasonably "stand alone" topics--most others fall into subgroupings or whatnot, and therefore should be put under list of ethnic slurs. Sweetfreek 04:12, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Why? You assert it warrants its own page without giving any reason. With all the deleting that goes on at Wikipedia of more academic, and I dare say, legitimate topics, why exactly does something like this get server space?


 * Yeah, I get pissed about those kind of deletions, too. Sweetfreek 05:36, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

This article is very conjectural. Needs more backing from Ethnic studies or sociological papers I'd say.


 * He's right. This does need some papers behind it.


 * Do such papers exist? I can just see a sociology professor trying to shore up funding for something like this: "I need a research grant to find out why white guys think Asian chicks are so hot." Denied!--Daveswagon 20:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * N*****, k***, what are you talking about? We're mature, there's no need for censorship. And as for the NPOV, it's ridicolous. As stated in the article, there have been numerous pop culture references to this. I've seen shows on the History Channel that only talk about female oriental fetishes displayed by US soldiers in wartime (Korea, WWII Japan, Vietnam, etc). Not only that, but the article states that when there is inter racial marriage concerning white males, they prefer oriental females. Just like how inter racial marriages concerning white females are usually with black males. That's the way life is, it's not the act of some racists, or people on chat rooms, it's nature. I will be removing the NPOV template now, seeing as how it was added on July 26, and the article has since been improved. Gold Stur 18:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not racism? Before you talk about the absence of racism, you'd probably want to stop calling people Orientals.  While you're at it, stop calling people Negroes too. ;) (Eline)


 * How is using the word "oriental" racist? It's not saying that my race is better. You don't even know my race, so don't act like you do. And the reason why I use oriental is because it is more specific than Asian. Asia is a big place. You have Indians, Pakistinians, Pacific Islanders, Eurasians, Russians, Middle Easterners, etc., so when one says Asian, they are being very general. Oriental however, means the Asian that you and many others think of. One could accuse YOU of racism for trying to lump everyone together. And I don't use the term negro. Fuck you. Gold Stur 01:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * the fact that you don't understand why oriental is not preferred speaks volumes. Most people use East Asian or East/Southeast asian.Kennethtennyson 15:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

People need to understand. There are some folks who like to use the name Oriental when referring to themselves. Most of them are not Asian-Americans however. I would say, why not call people simply what they prefer to be called. Most Asian-Americans accept the term Asian or Asian-American. Many folks in the Far East may prefer Oriental. Others there may prefer something more specific.

Just call them what they prefer. What's the big deal?

29 September 15.14.2005 TheDogon

Revised
When I revised the article, there were pornographic images on it. The pictures were linked to your name. When I looked your name up, there were other edits associated with it that had pornography attached. However, I don't seem to see them anymore. I wonder if the administrators removed them permanently. I wonder if your name might have been used by someone else previously. Sorry for the confusion if there was any. Kennethtennyson 3 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)


 * Oh, I see. Yeah, I had nothing to do with it, whatever it was. I can't see it in history, so maybe admins erased it. Perhaps someone spoofed my name or something similar. Vandals, trolls and the like are not unheard of around here. Willowx 7 July 2005 10:24 (UTC)

Such papers do exist that have sociological and historical ties to all these stereotypes of asian women and white men, and other interracial couples. All of this came from somewhere. And a lot of these ideas were pushed onto society to oppress and shame ethnic women and in this case/topic it is asian women.

here is a link...to an educated writer...http://www.webcom.com/intvoice/emily5.html

Perhaps inaccurate
I'm not sure if the last paragraph is that accurate. I edited a bit. There actually is a thriving pornographic industry in europe, america, and south america; however, but there is not as much of a focus. Further, there actually is a thriving porno industry in africa and south asia and somewhat in the mideast but people in the US are not aware of it due to the lack of interest in the general population here in the west. The asian fetish that exists here promotes a myopic focus on asian porno that overemphasizes asian porno.Steelhead


 * Which came first, chicken or egg? Maybe a little of both. But I think it is ridiculous to deny that Japan, especially has a HUGE porn industry, including some disturbing aspects like rape and very young girls. Absolutely enormous. Also a thriving prostitution racket. It uses sexy images of girls to sell even weekly news magazines. Saudi Arabia doesn't do this. This is why you never see Arab porn floating around, and no "fan boys" types ogling lewd Arab comics. Someone who knows Japan only through these cartoons would have a seriously warped view of a rather conservative nation. So how much does the perceived low status of women by their own culture's influence the image that is exported to the world? Africa and South America are perhaps too underdeveloped to export very much, such as magazines, videos and internet sites, although the "Sexy" aspects of Latin culture (dancing, romance) do encourage the 'Latina' stereotypes. Maybe we could do a Google test to see the search hits for various countries?? Here goes:


 * 3,490,000 for american porn
 * 2,850,000 for asian porn
 * 1,170,000 for european porn
 * 990,000 for latin porn
 * 804,000 for arab porn
 * 779,000 for african porn


 * Yeah, I know it's crude. It may simply reflect the volume of internet activity, ie. the US and Japan and Europe have the most. Arab, Africa have far less. If my theory is correct about promotion of sexualized images, we could also expect that Americans might be the most sexualized. This may be the case. In some parts of the world, it is assumed that American women are "easy", all have big silicone breasts etc. Also I think Africa, being the most poor, seems the obvious cause here. My point is that some Asian nations promote 'exotic' images, sometimes wittingly (Singapore girl) and sometimes unwittingly (domestic Manga markets in Japan -- not really intended for export originally). So isn't there some hypocrisy in the notion that Asians themselves have no culpability in their image to the outside world? Just like America often exports a very violent image of itself through Hollywood. An outsider might think the whole country is the Wild West. My point is this: Respect for women begins at home. It's hypocrisy to treat women as decorations ("office flowers") or sex toys (think "chikan"), and then expect foreigners to on the contrary have great respect for them, a respect which is perhaps lacking at home. Willowx 08:55, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Googling all of the internet for ENGLISH references to porn in different countries only shows you what ENGLISH speaking and writing people write on the internet related to porn. Thus, it doesn't substantiate that asian porn promoted by asian countries plays a part in the asian fetish.  All it shows you is that ENGLISH speaking people (ie. European and American people) have an overwhelming interest in Asian porn as opposed to latin porn or arab porn.  Thus, english speaking people (majority white) have an overwhelming interest in Asian porn as compared to other porn and thus the asian fetish idea.  Steelhead 14:59, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Still, it shows that at least in English (ie., most of the internet) disparities exist. Since the Chinese and Japanese and Korean web is also large and growing, I suspect my calculations underestimate the presence of asian pornography. Maybe someone has access to real statistics on this (instead of just griping about my admittedly rough Google technique)? Also you missed my point. The overwhelming porn presence in English web is Americans and European, but that is not considered "fetish". Why? Seems like a tautology on your part. Willowx 13:54, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Update: I found some actual stats on porn site registrations by country:  The full top ten is:

1. Germany: 10,030,200 2. United Kingdom: 8,506,800 3. Australia: 5,655,800 4. Niue: 2,947,800 5. Japan: 2,700,800 6. Netherlands: 1,883,800 7. Russia: 1,080,600 8. Poland: 1,049,600 9. Spain: 852,800 10. Tonga: 848,800

The total Web pages by region is:

* Europe: 28,430,600 * Pacific: 12,352,600 * Asia: 3,193,000 * Latin America: 1,048,600 * Africa: 389,400 * Canada: 283,600 * Caribbean:255,000 * Middle East: 77,800 * Total: 46,030,600

Japan is number five, leading to the possibility of Japanese models / porn being more prevalent than say, Saudi women.

Who changed the article? What they wrote was true. They speak the facts and someone just had to delete half the article! I changed it back to the way it was. They left no explanation of why it was changed. (Kyla 03:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC))


 * you don't understand. what steelhead was trying to state was that you can't make any conclusions about the asian fetish phenomenon being a result of the Asian cultures promoting porn from your google search. That google search is in English. Google itself searches mainly sites written in English. As far as I can tell, the majority of English websites even if they are based in foreign countries are run by English speaking people, ie. white people.  Thus a search for porn in English in an asian country like japan just tells you that 9/10 times a website run by English speaking people was running that website using Japan as a base.  It tells you nothing about who was running it.  The majority of Japanese run and manage sites written in Japanese.  The same can be said about Latin america. Also, using raw numbers to calculate is totally wrong.  If you notice, America and Europe have the highest distribution of internet access in the world folloowed by Asia.  If you did a search for the word "cookbook" or some other random word you would probably come up with the same rankings - ie. europe and american and then asia (ie japan and korea and china).  Finally, what you probably need to do is compare internet use as a percentage of world use in a certain region with pornography as a percentage of all pornography in all languages to get the true answer.  What that will probably end up showing you is that especially the Caribbean and Canada along with Africa have the highest percentage of pornography in relation to internet use.  How many people do you think use the internet in the Caribbean?  In terms of country, it would show you that Poland is the number one porn distributer in the world compared to the internet users that it has next to probably Australia and the Netherlands. Even then you can't draw any conclusions because it is confounded by the fact that many US based internet porn sites run it from foreign countries because the law in some foreign countries is lax about these things. For instance, most internet gambling sites are run from the Caribbean. Does it mean that the latinos in the caribbean are gambling addicts? All it means is that the laws there make it easier to run internet porn sites.Kennethtennyson

Still some POV problems.
I was looking over the section on "Effects on Media" and found it ridiculously POV; I'm surprised there wasn't a tag on the article. My edits last night, which took me a while to complete, were reverted by an anon earlier today. I'd like some registered users here to comment on my edits to that section so that we can make it better. See WP:NPOV for what our goal should be in this and any other article. --Idont Havaname 20:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the Media section is ridiculously POV (and the rest of the article doesn't look so hot as well). While I agree that the topic is encyclopedic, the article needs an overhaul. --24.128.167.223 22:06, 17 September 2005 (UTC) --Wasabe3543 22:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC) (forgot to sign in)

Humour
Quote from social concequences

" A suicide note found at the scene also indicated that he had a racial infatuation with Wang."

Wang being a slang word for penis. Strangly fitting in an article where penis size was earlier mentioned

Some points worth bringing up regarding POV/NPOV
There are several things I think I should say about this article and how we should handle editing it.

--Idont Havaname 23:33, 17 September 2005 (UTC) Does it also upset you to see Asian women with Black men, or Asian men dating White women?
 * 1) It is not, in any way, shape, or form, being written from a neutral point of view.  This is obvious from the presence of weasel words such as "often" and "many" (without references), and by the presence of statements such as, "white men who date Asian women are also sometimes stereotyped as being sexually/emotionally inadequate", "The Asian fetish is essentially rooted in white supremacist imperialism", "the three cases given above cannot provide a full picture of the depth of harm which an Asian fetish can do to both Asian-American identity and to interracial relationships", "This pairing has become so ubiquitous that it even appears in children's books" (and that's shocking?), and the whole last paragraph of "Effects on Media".  In so doing, it's trying to paint all Asian/white relationships as invalid and wrong, all of the women as having "sold out", and all of the guys as Michael Lohman types.  I could go write an article in which I whine in a "Quit Stealing All Our Women Point of View" about how some of my white female friends are dating only black guys, but that wouldn't be NPOV either.
 * 2) It doesn't have enough discussion of white women who like Asian men.
 * 3) It doesn't consider the fact that some white guys who like Asian women like other women too, and that there are reasons for liking Asian women other than, "Oh, I like her because she's Asian."  Some people don't consider race a factor at all in relationships and think nothing of it in their dating practices.  (It is also worth pointing out that, at least in the US, "white" and "black" people can only trace parts (if any) of their ancestry to particular nationalities, so in a sense, nearly any relationship they are in is to some extent interracial.  Maybe that's why they've stopped making a big deal about which race of women they date!)
 * 4) Most importantly, you do not have to be Asian, or white, or black, or any other race, to edit this article!  There is no rule in Wikipedia policy saying that there are race/ethnicity/nationality requirements for editing certain types of articles.  If you don't like that, go start your own encyclopedia.
 * So, wait....you're upset that your 'White' female friends are dating Black men? Interesting.

-Joel Lindley 05:44, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not. I used to be - seeing them did play a part in my becoming less strict (from a racial standpoint) in who I was taking interest in, but I'm really not opposed to it anymore.  I know a white woman who was married to a guy from China, and I never thought anything one way or the other on that.  I've noticed somewhat of a "trophy" attitude in some (certainly not all) of the black man / white woman pairings (there are rap songs about it, for instance; one that I can think of, by Will Smith?, has a line about "my honey with the light eyes" - I think it's called "Summertime"), so that sort of runs in parallel with this bizarrely titled "Asian fetish" in a sense, as *some* (certainly not all, as Asian fetish seems to be saying) of these relationships are between people who are both taking race into account too much (i.e. looking for somebody because they are of a certain race).  I've seen articles in US newspapers that some white parents are telling their children to marry blacks just so that their children can benefit from affirmative action programs (I'd love to find the source for that and list it somewhere).  It's a rather interesting phenomenon that I think deserves its own article (coming up with the right title for it could be a problem), and then have that article and this one linked from interracial couple.  (Send me a message on my talk page if you're interested in working on an article on that.)  I don't see anything wrong with interracial relationships, however.  Sorry if what I said in my previous post seemed unclear. --Idont Havaname 19:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, Black people can have light eyes as well. Not just White people. FYI, I don't think Will Smith was referring to a White women, since the video 'Summertime' showcased majority African-Americans, and Will Smith has been paired with mainly Black women in the past. Too, as for Whites telling their kids to marry Blacks just for Affirmative Action is a form of racism, as is saying African-Americans have to look a certain way due to their racial background.
 * Sorry, I'd never seen the video; I'd just heard the song on the radio a few years ago. Unless you've seen the video that line can be somewhat ambiguous. --Idont Havaname 00:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

So, you were upset that Asian women were dating Black men as well? Interesting.

--Joel Lindley 22:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not. Just because I don't say that I'm not upset doesn't mean I am upset.  I'm not upset with black/Asian couples any more than any other interracial couples; I don't have double standards.  Now let's please all get the discussion back toward improving this article. --Idont Havaname 00:10, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, alright. No need to get snippy.LOL. I'm just glad you got over your jealousy. And, yes, I agree with you; let's get back to improving the article. :)

-67.169.114.208 12:11, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

So, what about the article is it that you feel is unmitigated or not justified by any sort of evidence? What about the article is "insulting"? Are you denying that Asian fetishes do occur and that there are people who are solely attracted to Asians (often Asian females) solely because of race? I have met many people that have said, "Oh yeah, I love Asian women because they are sexy and kinky!" How is that not a racially generalized comment? That is like saying, "Oh yeah, I like African women because they have bones in their noses!" Are all Asian women kinky? Do most African women live in tribes with bones in their noses?

--Full_Shunyata