Talk:Asian witchcraft

Untitled
Contains nothing except for a short sentence on Indian witchcraft which is common knowledge. Delete. &mdash; Stevey7788 (talk) 01:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

from vfd
Votes for deletion/Asian witchcraft 01:06, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Snake familiars
The Japanese section mentions two kinds of mages in Japanese culture, the Fox employing kind and the snake employing kind. However, there is a description of the fox kind without a complementing Snake kind. I suggest one be added or the line be redacted. Catzilla4 (talk) 06:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Catzilla4
 * Wikipedia just summarizes sources. We've got a source that mentions both, but more sources discussing the fox familiar: hence the current format.  Adding more about the snake without adding more sources, or removing the line about the snake familiars, would go against WP:UNDUE. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The former option I meant because it seemed that with so little information on them, that it was unverified. I meant in the latter option to find some sources and add the information from them in.  I will see if I can find more information on snake familiars to add to this section.Catzilla4 (talk) 02:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that the citation given does not mention snake familiars? If not, then it's verified.  Ian.thomson (talk) 03:00, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Catzilla4 that the snake reference needs to either be expanded or removed. The way the article stands it makes it sound as if only foxes in Japanese folklore can grant powers and wishes, which completely ignores all the other animals that also function in the same way, such as the Raccoon-dogs, Kappa, Tengu ... actually the list is long. Interestingly enough the one animal in Japanese mythology I can't find any reference to in regard to witchcraft are snakes. They appear in Thai mythology but not Japanese. I don't have a copy of Blacker's A Study of Shamanistic Practices in Japan, but I am curious as to this claim. I'm not saying it's false, but considering there are lots of other mythological animals that function like the kitsune it seems a bit odd that the article is including only snakes.Xenomorph erotica (talk) 14:53, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Middle East is now Asia?
So, just to be clear, this article on Asian witchcraft concentrates on the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and Islam, saying virtually nothing about any sort of witchcraft beliefs or practices that are native to actual Asian cultures. And while it can be argued that all three religions are certainly heavily practiced in and around Asia, the title of this article is thus misleading. It references but makes no distinction between the Western concept of witchcraft and what is actually practiced as religion in Eastern cultures. I came looking for information on what is deemed witchcraft in the Pacific islands, Korea, China, Tibet, India, Malaysia ... simple answers to things like, what does Shinto think about witchcraft? or Buddhism? What does witchcraft look like in Thailand? what's the difference between Asiatic shamans and Asiatic witches? There's nothing here of substance outside a nod to Japanese anime (of course) and kitsune. Out of the entire Indian subcontinent we get two sentences, both crime statistics. This article is embarrassing. No mention of the penanggalan witches of Malay? The tale in Japan of Uheita and the Witch? The Balinese witch Tjalon Arang and her magic book? How a witch turned Prince Ulay of the Philippines into an ape? (all these references come from Jan Knappert's excellent book, Pacific Mythology, pages 325-326) And that's just one book. How does Chinese Black Magic play into this? Animal familiars? Kulam? Onmyōdō? Makutu? Tohunga? Daayan? As you notice almost everything I talk about are already articles found in Wikipedia with a minimum amount of effort, so I'm not suggesting anything radical when I say that I would like to work on this article, but I first want to remove 90% of the content concerning the Middle East, and concentrate on actual Asian witches, since there is a lot of research on the subject but what is presented here is embarrassing. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 14:28, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Not only that but this article brings up Middle Eastern magic and never even once brings up Kabbalah! This article is a freaking joke Nightfall217 (talk) 23:12, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, technically in West Asia, but the predominance was really throwing off the balance of this articles (and others), so it was spun off into Witchcraft in the Middle East. Perhaps you have views to add there? Skyerise (talk) 19:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

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Proposed split to Witchcraft in the Middle East
It has been proposed that the section on the Middle East be split into a new article, Witchcraft in the Middle East.


 * Support: Asia and the Middle East really are two very different domains.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   18:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per Esowteric. The same applies to Europe and the Middle East. Skyerise (talk) 18:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of Korean mudang material
Hello User:Skyerise. I wanted to query the introduction of material from Korean shamanism (where I have been the primary editor) into this particular article. The Korean mudang are not conventionally translated as "witches" so I don't see why they would be relevant here. Seems like something that just doesn't belong and will cause confusion. 23:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC) Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The sources establish that they are accused of witchcraft by Christians in Korea. Since witchcraft is something that does not actually exist independently of such accusations by Christians (or sometimes Confucians), mudang meet the definitions established in the witchcraft series for inclusion. Feel free to establish a consensus otherwise, but most forms of shamanism have been equated with witchcraft by Christians. Skyerise (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * But none of the cited sources state that Christians regard mudang as witches. We have one cited source stating that South Korean Protestants regard the mudang practices as "Devil worship". However, Devil worship is not the same thing as witchcraft, excepting within certain early modern European contexts. This material really should be removed. If you disagree, perhaps we could go to an RfC? Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The following paragraph has been in the article (moved from the main article at some point, I believe) since forever: I simply provided context.
 * "Attempting to influence others through spells in Joseon was widely censured by the royal court. On discovering that Consort Hwi-bin Kim had used witchcraft on the crown prince, Sejong the Great described her as a "sorcerer" or "evil monster" (Hanja: 妖邪) and had her thrown out of the palace."


 * There was an inquisition to wipe them out in 1896, driven in part by Christians and inspired by European witchcraft laws. That's a witch-hunt. Feel free to start an RfC. Skyerise (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't object to the quoted paragraph, nor did I remove it in my edits. But my point being is that this particular case doesn't appear to be about a mudang to begin with. Where we actually have material on beliefs in witchcraft in Korea, then they would be warranted in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:22, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Should this article cover the Korean mudang ('shamans')?
Should this article keep or remove this material on the Korean mudang or "shamans"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Votes/Discussion:
 * Remove. This material on the Korean mudang was sourced from the Korean shamanism article, where I have been the primary editor. From my experience reading fairly extensively on the mudang, I do not believe that they warrant coverage in an article about Asian witchcraft. When the Korean word mudang is translated into English, it is usually as shaman (that has its own problems, but we needn't go into that here); the word is not translated as witch. Mudang are spirit mediums, not sorcerers who curse people, which is the primary meaning of the term witch.
 * From discussions at the Talk Page, it seems that the main reason for including the mudang here is the fact that Korean Protestants accuse mudang of trafficking with demons. That, however, does not make them witches. Moreover, Christians (of many kinds) commonly believe that all non-Abrahamic (and sometimes even Abrahamic) religions are trafficking with demons. This is a common Christian accusation against Hindus, for example. If we include the mudang in an article on Asian witchcraft on this basis, then we would also have to include Hinduism in this article, and probably also Shinto, and Chinese folk religion, and Mongolian shamanism - any Asian religion, in fact, that some Christians believe ultimately venerates demonic beings. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Everyone knows there are no such thing as witches. There is only the hunt, and it is the hunt that defines the witch. Mudang have been hunted as witches. Historically, this deserves documentation, just as all the other witch hunts do. Chinese shamanism is already in the article: they were hunted as witches by Confucians. Skyerise (talk) 04:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep. Mudang are discussed in the context of witchcraft accusations as well as being subjected to modern witch-hunts. See:
 * Baker, D. (2014). Seoul and Salem: Contrasts in How States Treated Female Performers of Licentious Rituals. Journal of Korean Religions, 5(2), 11–38.
 * Oak, Sung-Deuk. "Healing and exorcism: Christian encounters with shamanism in early modern Korea." Asian Ethnology, vol. 69, no. 1, spring 2010, pp. 95+. Gale Academic OneFile, . Accessed 4 Mar. 2024.
 * Healing and Exorcism: Christian Encounters with Shamanism in Early Modern Korea: "In 1890 Horace G. Underwood (1859–1916), the first American clerical missionary to Korea, defined a “witch” as mudang 무당 (shaman), mynyŏ 무녀 (sorceress), masyul hanan nyŏp’yŏnnye 마슐하는녀편녜 (wretch of magic), and yosul hanan nyŏp’yŏnnye 요슐하는녀편녜 (wretch of witchcraft) in his English-Korean Dictionary (Underwood 1890, 289). 1 "
 * This shows that mudang have been considered witches by Christians in Korea since 1890. Skyerise (talk) 11:40, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Could we use these sources more heavily (I don't think they are presently used at all) and thus offer a short paragraph just explaining how the mudang have been accused of witchcraft, and by whom? The present text just seems excessively lengthy and not focused on witchcraft accusations itself. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I already added material from the last source just after I posted these here. I don't see how it is too long, the whole section details historical and ongoing persecution - nothing else is covered... Skyerise (talk) 19:22, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep per Skyerise's reasoning. Not a topic I edit in frequently, but I have a fair number of academic books within the general subject range, and there is no clear dividing line between "witch", "shaman", "sorceror", "warlock", "witchdoctor", or any other label, among anthropolgists, historicans, folklorists, etc. The entire nature of the subject (aside from modern self-labeling among neo-pagans) is defined generally in terms of Christian and other "mainstream" religious (Muslim, Confucian) oppression, not in terms of the exact nature/purpose of the magic beliefs/practices of the alleged witches themselves. Aside from some neutral-minded anthropological appropriation of the word, "witch[craft]" is generally a form of exonym and a negative epithet, along the same generally condemnatory lines as "heathen[ry]" and "heretic/heresy". PS: It would actually be fine to include mention in this article of Christian allegations that all of Hinduism is "witchcraft" and "demons", as long as it were done concisely and not an attempt to coatrack a whole lot of Hinduism details into this article (or reduce Hinduism to a Western-dominated stereotype of what "witchcraft" indicates; Christians approaching Hinduism as a form of witchcraft is actually topically relevant).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * keep but make clear that it is regarded as/accused of being witchcraft by (some) outsiders, but not by practitioners, by placing it in a context of religious persecution. --Licks-rocks (talk) 08:16, 6 March 2024 (UTC)