Talk:Asiatic lion/Archive 1

==An appeal to all Naturelovers & Wildlifers and specially to those from Iran & India to spread the awareness, love & respect for all species and help us protect the "Asiatic Cheetah" & "Asiatic Lion" from Extinction==

The "Asiatic Cheetah" (Acinonyx jubatus venaticus) Page has been originally created by ATUL SINGH NISCHAL - atulsinghnischal@yahoo.com, I am a Life-member of Bombay Natural History Society (BNHS): http://www.bnhs.org/ and a Life-subscriber of WWF-India: http://www.wwfindia.org/.

I am an "Asiatic Cheetah" and "Asiatic Lion" fan originally from India, naturelovers & wildlifers in my country and in Iran love both these species and we used to have plenty of them till a few hundred years back in both India and Iran. Today all the "Asiatic Cheetah" are extinct all over Asia and also extinct in India now, just the last 50 to 62 are said to be remain in Iran.

The same fate befell the "Asiatic Lion" all over Europe and Asia they were exterminated by man. Iran also lost them eventually in 1942. From the handful that survived in India in 1900 in a single forest, a population of about 300 odd has been conserved and built up. It is felt now that all the Asiatic Lion are cramped together in a single Indian forest of Gir which is hopelessly overpopulated and Lions have started to spill out to unprotected adjoining areas coming in regular conflict with man with many of them being killed/poisened regularly. Since all the Asiatic Lions of the world are cramped together in the Gir region of the Indian State of Gujarat and face complete extinction because of an epidemic or natural calamity that may strike, the Government of India has made arrangements to re-introduce some to Kuno-Palpur Sanctuary in the neghbouring State of Madhya Pradesh in India. Even though the Asiatic Lion is on the official seal of India and all Indians are proud of them, unfortunately the State Government of Gujarat and some people in Gujarat feel that Asiatic Lion are state property and are opposing the re-introduction of some wild Lions to Kuno-Palpur Sanctuary in the neighboring State of Madhya Pradesh in India. For the time being it looks like that Gujarat wants to keep its monopoly on tourism revenue generated by the Asiatic Lions.

Naturelovers sincerely hope that both "Asiatic Cheetah" and "Asiatic Lion" can be pulled from the brink of extinction and eventually be re-introduced back to their original remaining habitats all over Asia. Maybe it may take a few centauries but presently Iran and India can co-operate on bringing the "Asiatic Cheetah" and "Asiatic Lion" back to their countries. Iran should help India in re-introducing the "Asiatic Cheetah", even though it may have to be through "Cloning" if needed, and India should help Iran to re-introduce the "Asiatic Lion" to their country.

Long live the "Asiatic Cheetah" and "Asiatic Lion" who had shared, shoulder to shoulder, much of the same habitat ranging from North Africa to India...........

Thanking you

Original author of article/page on "Asiatic Cheetah" on wikipedia

Atul Singh Nischal atulsinghnischal@yahoo.com; Life-member of Bombay Natural History Society (BNHS): http://www.bnhs.org/; Life-subscriber of WWF-India: http://www.wwfindia.org/;

Please Note:

Detailed original Version I wrote (on History page): 00:50, 13 September 2006 Atulsnischal (Talk | contribs) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asiatic_Cheetah&oldid=75407443
 * The article/page on "Asiatic Cheetah" on Wikipedia was originally written by me but has since been re-written to suite a general audience. You may still be able to pull up the detailed original version I wrote from the "History" button on top of "Asiatic Cheetah" page:


 * It gives a more detailed account of the critically endangered “Asiatic Cheetah”, what is being done for its conservation and the importance of modern technologies like cloning in wildlife conservation today.

Atulsnischal 17:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The ASIATIC LION GROUP on Yahoo!

 * The ASIATIC LION GROUP on Yahoo - Please DO join us!

Help us Save this "Critically Endangered" species, "The Asiatic Lions", from Extinction. Please join us in our efforts to raise the awareness, and spread the news, of CONSERVATION. Help Save the Asiatic Lions.

The Asiatic Lion Group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Asiatic_Lions/

Group messages with lot of information on Asiatic Lions accessible to all

(Messages posted on the Group include Reference Material for this and Asiatic Lion related articles on Wikipedia):

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Asiatic_Lions/messages

LINKS ON - ASIATIC LION ( & Asiatic Cheetah):

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Asiatic_Lions/message/139

Atulsnischal 21:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Asiatic Lion LINKS & References
The section on Iranian lions, incorrectly cites 1940s for any sighting of the animal on the Iranian territories. I should disagree. As a young boy in 1966, i read an article in a local Iranian newspaper (while waiting to get a haircut at a barber shop), complete with several photos of hunting of an entire pride of lions in Iran, somewhere around Shiraz (I cannot remember where exactly). The proud hunter had documented the killing of female lion as he was attempting to steal her cubs (two or three in numbers--again, I do not remember for sure). The article was concluded by the magazine's editor remorselessly declaring that they believe these were the last native lions in Persia/Iran. As it has turned out, unfortunately they were correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Izady (talk • contribs) 06:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "The Asiatic Lion Information Centre"

The home of the European Asiatic Lion Breeding Programme. The purpose of the Asiatic Lion Information Centre is to serve as a central point on the Internet for information about Asian lions. Here you will find historical information about the Asian lion, a species account, range maps, and information about the conservation programmes being undertaken to secure the survival of this species of big cat. http://www.asiatic-lion.org/credits.html;

Please remember to also visit the News pages (1997 onwards) http://www.asiatic-lion.org/index.html;


 * Gir & Asiatic Lion Protection Society (GALPS) (a group Wildlife enthusiasts) from Gujarat, India

This site is developed by Gir & Asiatic Lion Protection Society (GALPS) (a group Wildlife enthusiasts) purely with intention of spreading information of Asiatic Lion and Gir. This site is still under development. A whole new concept, new topics, new material, photographs, video clips, sound clips, News Articles etc. will be uploaded by October 2006. If you have any comments or content please write to us at info@asiaticlion.org. http://www.asiaticlion.org/


 * Blog on Latest News articles on Asiatic Lion and Gir by GALPS, Gir & Asiatic Lion Protection Society (GALPS):

Blog on Latest News articles on Asiatic Lion and Gir by GALPS, Gir & Asiatic Lion Protection Society (GALPS) (a group Wildlife enthusiasts), Blog created by Kishore Kotecha, Rajkot INDIA i.e. one of their founding memebers: http://asiatic-lion.blogspot.com/

''' The Asiatic Lion (Panthera leo persica) is a subspecies of lion. The last remnant of the Asiatic Lion, which in historical times ranged from Caucasus to Yemen and from Macedon to present-day India through Ancient Pakistan and Iran (Persia), lives in the Gir Forest National Park of western India. About 350 lions (August 2005) live in a 1,412 km² (558 square miles) sanctuary in the state of Gujarat. In 1907 there were only 13 lions left in the Gir, when the Nawab of Junagadh gave complete protection to them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_Lion
 * '''"Asiatic Lion" Page From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Forum relating to following Article: "Asia’s Last Lions: National Geographic. Extinction stalks the Asiatic lion, a regal subspecies now crowded into a single sanctuary in India’s Gir Forest". Aticle and Links: www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0106/feature3/index.html; Excellent multimedia presentation (Flash): www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0106/feature3/media2.html; Klum Photography: Asiatic Lions: www.klum.se/gallery/images.aspx?ID=2&OrderNr=1
 * Asiatic Lion Forum of "National Geographic" International

http://mesa.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/cgi-bin/forum/forum.cgi?forum=asiatic_lions


 * Asiatic Lion Forum of "Times of India" Newspaper local Gujarat office.

Should some Gir lions be shifted out of Gujarat? What is the symbol that represents the pride of Gujarat? It has to be the majestic lion of Gir - the only natural home the Asiatic lion has in the world. It is not surprising therefore that the Gujarat government is fighting tooth and nail against a move by the Centre to shift some of the lions to a sanctuary in Madhya Pradesh. Gujarat is not ready to give up its exclusivity over the animal and has instead suggested that if the lion needs another home outside the congested Gir, then it can be within Gujarat itself. Conservationists are united when it comes to the need to have an alternate home for the lion so that its gene pool can be protected and its population be encouraged to grow again in areas other than Gujarat where it once ruled the forests till it was edged out by the tigers and humans. While some such attempts in the past have failed, others say Gujarat's pride is not as important as preserving the lion. Should some Gir lions be shifted out of Gujarat? Robin David, TOI Ahmedabad (Gujarat) Bureau. (Atul's Note: To educate yourself on the issue please visit "The Asiatic Lion information Centre" The home of the European Asiatic Lion Breeding Programme and its News pages: http://www.asiatic-lion.org/index.html

http://o3.indiatimes.com/mytimes/archive/2006/06/21/835722.aspx


 * IRAN-ZOO Page on Asiatic Lion

Persian (Asiatic) Lion - Page, (Panthera Leo Persica), Shir (in Persian); Asiatic Lions have been extinct in Iran since 1942 http://iranzoo.tripod.com/lion/lion.html/


 * Ex-Situ Conservation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-situ_conservation, http://www.biodiv.org/convention/articles.asp?lg=0&a=cbd-09

“The genetic information needed in the future to reproduce endangered animal species can be preserved in genebanks, which consist of cryogenic facilities used to store living sperm, eggs, or embryos. The Zoological Society of San Diego has established a "frozen zoo" to store such samples from more than 355 species, including mammals, reptiles, and birds.”

“…. However, when the extinction of a species is imminent, ex-situ conservation becomes the only option left to humanity. It is simply better to preserve a species in part than to let it die out completely.”


 * In-Situ Conservation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-situ_conservation, http://www.biodiv.org/convention/articles.asp?lg=0&a=cbd-08

The Convention on Biological Diversity: http://www.biodiv.org/default.shtml

Atulsnischal 23:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Indian Wildlife photos @ “INDIA NATURE WATCH” including Asiatic Lions
INDIA NATURE WATCH (INW) - A non-commercial website that focuses on sharing the joy that nature has on offer. We welcome all nature lovers to join us in sharing that joy. The INW website is intended to serve as an online resource for nature lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals. Our focus area is India. We hope the content generated here will help showcase the work of nature photographers in India to the world, as well as help initiate the uninitiated to the wonders of nature. Currently we have a "Image Gallery Section" where a member can showcase an image and a "Discussion Forum" where various topics can be discussed. While we continue to strive to improve features on INW, We take great pride in the professional, non-commercial environment we provide for all visitors. Please do peruse our "terms of use" (http://www.indianaturewatch.net/terms.php ).

(ATUL’s NOTE: Please note that not so long ago wild Asiatic Lions ranged over most of the “Indian sub-continent”, where they came in contact with and their paths regularly crisscrossed with most of our wildlife including Tigers. Unfortunately the last surviving 300 or so wild Asiatic Lions left today in the whole world are only found in the Gir forest area of Indian state of Gujarat where the Tiger has been hunted to extinction for quite some time now. In fact the Tiger is entirely missing from Gujatat’s forests where they may someday again be reintroduced as suitable habitat is said to exist. Meantime there are plans to re-introduce 2-3 prides of wild Asiatic Lions to Kuno-Palpur Wildlife Sanctuary in the neighboring Indian state of Madhya Pradesh. Asiatic Lions and the Asiatic Cheetah shared most of the same habitat in India and southwest Asia, but alas the Indian/Asiatic Cheetah is now extinct in India, the very last 50 or 60 fight their final extinction in nearby Iran. Iran had lost all its Asiatic Lions to senseless hunting by 1942 & their Tigers had met the same fate too.)

INDIA NATURE WATCH: http://www.indianaturewatch.net/index.php

Atulsnischal 23:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

From Spanish wikipedia
Hey folks--lots of info in the Spanish wikipedia...may be time to translate some of it over (of which I may do myself in the coming weeks... --Compcons 20:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Compcons, that would be great! I do not know Spanish, but do let me know if I can help somehow. Cheers! --ΜιĿːtalk 09:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Copied from Lions in Europe
The following was copied from Lions in Europe Main Author : User:Pmaas Main edit

Lions in the Caucasus

''And also there was a population of the Asiatic Lion in the Caucasus mountains, which was the northernmost point of the lion range until they become extinct in the area. These lions become extinct from Armenia around the year 300 and from Azerbaijan and southweast Russia during the 10th century. In this area the lion coexisted with other Big Cats like the Caspian tiger (which survived in Caucasus until the 1920s), the Caucasian leopard and the Asiatic Cheetah, and they prey in Caucasus included the Caucasian Wisent, Caucasian Elk, aurochs, tarpan and others ungulates. It remained widespread elsewhere until the mid-1800s when the advent of firearms led to its extinction over large areas. (Guggisberg 1961) By the late 1800s the lion had disappeared from Turkey (Ustay 1990).[2]''

Copied and modified by User:Altaileopard 11:45, 05 Okt 2006 (UTC)

Lions and Tigers
The article says that the Gir Forest is the last retreat of the asiatic lion. It then says that Lions and tigers rarely come into contact, but not in the Gir Region as it is to arid. In that case where do they come into contact if the lions don't live anywhere else?
 * I don't think they encounter tigers today, but it is likely they have done that in the pas when their range was much larger. The Gir forest is now becoming too small for the current population. Some lions occure also outside the park. News says: "The Guajrat Wildlife Department, which is strongly questioning the rationale of shifting some of Asiatic lions from the Gir forest in the State to Palpur sanctuary (Kuno Wildlife Sanctuary) in Madhya Pradesh, is expanding the habitat for the jungle kings" .Peter Maas 07:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Also in the news: "Gujarat has been resisting the shifting of lions on grounds quite bizarre. Describing them once as "Gujarat's pride" - as if they were not so for the rest of the country - the State experts have now put forth the curious ground of the unsuitability of Kuno-Palpur (Kuno Wildlife Sanctuary) as it also hosts tigers. Suffering from convenient amnesia, they forget that the habitat of lions once extended practically to the entire country, where they co-existed with tigers ." Peter Maas 07:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Start rating
I've rated this article as a start class article due to the lack of inline refs & the mismatch nature of the article. Pictures are flung all over the place & the mid section seems very listy. If you give it a good working, this can be maybe a B-class alter on... Spawn Man 04:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Nilgai, Is it on Asiatic Lion's Menu / Diet ????
The nilgai is the largest ungulate in the lion's range. But it looks like asiatic lions never prey on Nilgai. Is Nilgai too much for the lion? It is for leopard. Asiatic lions, unlike African lions, hunt in solitary. --S-- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.229.224.250 (talk) 09:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
 * How do you know that lions dont prey on nilgai?--Altaileopard 09:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I used to researched Asian lions' preys for quite a while, and Nilgai never showed up on the menu. --S--
 * Do you have sources (papers ect.) or is it just your feeling?--Altaileopard 09:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

"Nilgai" is definately on the "Diet list" of Asiatic Lions which do prey on them as well: 

Nilgai was definately a regular menu item in the diet of Asiatic Lions, all over the Indian subcontinent. Asiatic Lions were found over a large area of the Indian subcontinent till about 150 to 300 years ago, but Asiatic Lions were killed off everywhere in Asia and in the Indian subcontinent, now they only survive in one and only small Gir Forest in Gujarat India. Their grassland habitat specially in India was converted over the last centuary and a half over to farmland almost completely due to phenominal growth in Indian subcontinent's population. Nilgai or literal Hindi meaning "Blue Cow" - English name Blue Bull looks very much like a Cow, as it is a well know fact that Hindus hold cows "Holy", so now what has happened is since Hindus hold all cows holy and never kill a cow, Nilgais are found in increasing numbers all over in India, its amazing how everything else has gone, the grass land habitat and most of its animals are now extinct locally in most of Indian subcontinent, Asiatic Cheetah is completely extinct in India (and all over Asia but the last 50-60 remain in Iran) for the same reason BUT the Nilgai is found everywhere in India. Its strange since nobody killed them out they today exixt even in small wild patches which have been encirled within mushrooming Indian cities (Also I have seen them in the Indian Capital of New Delhi) and ofcourse Nilgais is found all over India in farmers fields. They have become a major pest species, they destroy crops worth millions but villagers still refuse to kill them, they just keep scaring / chasing them away from field to field. Some Indian states like Punjab and Maharashtra have declared them a pest species locally and issue permits even today to those who want to hunt this specie as well as Wild Boars which have also reached pest proportions and destroy crops.

Now, as to why it seems as if Nilgai are not on "Asiatic Lion's" Diet, it can be easily explained, the "Asiatic Lion" today only survives in Gir Forest, though the Nilgais occur there there is much easier prey namely the "cattle" and domesticated "water buffalos" of local Maldhari a forest dwelling cattle based tribe.

Some References:

HISTORY (Asiatic Lion)

“Wildlife conservation programme for the Asiatic Lion was started by the forest Department from September 1965 with the declaration of 1265.01 sq. km area as sanctuary which was expanded up to 1412.1 sq. km till date. With implementation of wildlife management and Gir Development Scheme, population of lions increased gradually from 177 in 1968 to 359 in 2005. Similarly, herbivore population of major animals (Cheetal, Sambar, Nilgai, Wild boar, Four horned Antelope, Chinkara etc.) has also increased from abut 38221 in 1995 to 49965 in 2005.”

Continues…

Source: http://www.asiaticlion.org/asiatic-lion-history.htm

HUMAN ANIMAL CONFLICT (Asiatic Lion)

“Historical records show that lion in the Gir preyed mainly on the domestic livestock of Maldharis (Joslin 1973, Berwick 1974), which constituted nearly 75% of their diet. However the latest studies conducted by Dr. R. M. Naik, Ravi Chellam and A.J.T. Johnsingh (1993) have shown that 36% of the kills are still from domestic livestock. Therefore, the domestic livestock contribute significantly to the lion’s food in Gir forests. The reason for this may be the fact that the Maldhari “Nesses” are located along valleys in flat to gently undulating terrains where domestic livestock provide an easy kill compared to the wild herbivores which being swifter, may escape into the more rugged zones of the forest.”

Continues…

Source: http://www.asiaticlion.org/food-dependency.htm

OTHER MAMMALS in Gir Forest http://www.asiaticlion.org/other-animals-mammas.htm

Asiatic Lion Info included in African Lion Factsheet: DIET: “Gir lions feed mainly on chital deer - occasionally sambar, nilgai and domestic stock.”

Source: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/Fact%20Sheets/lion_african/lion_african.htm#diet http://library.sandiegozoo.org/Fact%20Sheets/lion_african/lion_african.htm

I am also copying this discussion on the Nilgai discussion page.

Atulsnischal 01:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

External links Asiatic Lion, Asiatic Cheetah, Kuno Wildlife Sanctuary, Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project, etc.
I noted that the articles you have been working on have far too many external links. There should be a minimal number of "important sites". If there are articles etc. relevant to the article then they can be referenced in the text as notes. A sea of external links is practically useless since the important ones are diluted. David D. (Talk) 21:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi David the Extra "External Links" in the Wildlife articles I have been working on and the Extra External links you have been removing

Hi David

First of all let me thanks you for helping with the wildlife articles I have been working on

Asiatic Lion, Kuno Wildlife Sanctuary, Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project, etc.

I know you have been removing all the external links I had added in all these and other articles, but you see I am not an experienced writer on Wikipedia, all the external links that I added are actually what I read before writing of editing the article,


 * Hence they should have been included in the "References" section that I didnt make, and I didnt add a "Further Reading" section, wher all the links should have been added.

If you now see the inbreeding section in Asitic Lions, references have been correctly added as an inset within the article, like you were also suggesting, ..... you might want to see how that section was written after pressing edit, also see what appears after pressing edit on "Cited References", if done prperly the "Wikipedia software" automatically tabulates references under the "Cited References" heading, please see when you get time.

All external links will have to be added in "References" section and under "Further reding" sections which were missing, my mistake.... I have been not getting much time to comtribute on wikipedia.

Thanks again

Atulsnischal 06:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Atulsnischal, sounds like you are getting the right idea. I'll help out with formatting as I see these come up on my watchlist. David D. (Talk) 04:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

"Singh" meaning Lion is a common name used by Indians
Singh is an ancient Indian vedic name meaning "Lion" (Asiatic Lion), dating back over 2000 years to ancient India. It was originally only used by Rajputs a Hindu Kshatriya or military caste in India. After the birth of the Khalsa brotherhood in 1699, the Sikhs also adopted the name "Singh" due to the wishes of Guru Gobind Singh. Along with millions of Hindu Rajputs today, it is also used by over 20 million Sikhs worldwide.

Atulsnischal 11:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments removed from main articles and listed here

 * 1

"Lions were spread at many place across the Asia. As per local sentiments it is only people of Gir and their tolerance who preserved the lions on cost of their cattle and even human lives. As per the Hindu traditions, the lion is the vehicle of Hindu Goddess Ambaji. Ambaji has high importance in traditions and religious faith of people of Gujarat. Also being widely vegetarian society, It is common faith in Gir locality to consider animal killing as a sin. As per the Gir people these are the reasons behind survival of lions in this place. Even Government of Gujarat and its forest department has put large efforts behind growing the lions count from 20 to 360(+/- 10). Hence they are reluctant to leave their exclusiveness."


 * 2

"The relocation of Gir lions faces opposition from local people. Gir lions has remain issue of prestige for people of Gujarat. As per the local sentiments it is the tolerance of Gir people who preserved lions, even after loosing their cattle on regular basis. There are cases of even human death by lions. Also it is unacceptable for them to leave their exclusivity. Hence the Indian central government's move to shift them, attracted oppose in Gir localities as well by the state government of Gujarat. One argument against the lions shifting is that Kuno Wildlife Sanctuary also houses tigers. The tigers being slight stronger than the lions, are potential threat for survival of lions."

References for above:


 * 1) * 1 Above comment was left in the article on Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project on and by - 15:50, 25 May 2007 Vishal dodiya Talk• Contributions


 * 1) * 2 Above comment was left in the article on Gir Forest National Park on and by - 14:21, 25 May 2007 Vishal dodiya Talk• Contributions

Above comments have been removed from the main articles and listed here by me.

Atulsnischal 16:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

removed refererences
I removed these references below because they are not formatted correctly and there are redundant links. There is too much informatiojn too. We due not need the address and telephone number for the authors institution unless there is some good reason i am missing here? Can't we just narrow this down to three really good references rather than throwing so many in without much thought? More is not always better. David D. (Talk) 15:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

.

I LOVE ANINMAL AND LION

What about the Asiatic Lions living outside the GIR Forest?
Yes, there are 359 lions (last census) living inside the Gir Forest. What about the 2,000 plus now living outside the forest and not covered by the census? Why aren't these mentioned in the main article? - Dr. Ian A. Inman Beefy_SAFC (Talk) 11.15 pm, 14th September 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.79.223 (talk)
 * This is a good point. If you can cite your source for the existence of these 2,000 other lions (are they in India, or are you referring to zoo populations?) please include this. If you need help developing a paragraph to include into the text, I'll be willing to help. --Kpstewart (talk) 19:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Pundareekam is Tiger?
Pundareek is Sanskrit for Lotus, this is a fact, one can find that online everywhere. Somebody on the net has wrongly translated it as "Tiger", and that reference is being used here on Wikipedia, how can we correct that please? The actual sanskrit word for Tiger is "Vyaghra", which is the root for the modern Hindi word for Tiger "Baagh" Lilaac (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to do with Lions i have responded to this question on tigers talk page (were you also posted this). Zoo Pro  03:10, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Possible Asiatic Lion captured in Iraq?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GvHA0V8rz0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincent shooter (talk • contribs) 17:40, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:34, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Reliability of sources
Y'day I reverted an addition by who cited a certain Khalaf von Jaffa about the strength of the Asiatic lion. I argued that Jaffa is not a reliable source. Leo1pard wants to know "how come guys like Pocock, Haas, Heptner and Sludskii are reliable, but not Doctor Norman ‘Ali Bassam ‘Ali Taher Khalaf-von Jaffa?" Here is why: None of Jaffa's opinions has been published in peer-reviewed journals, but foremost in the internet or in his own magazine. Whereas the other people you mention are widely recognised zoologists, whose writings were published in a number of scientific journals issued by natural history museums and scientific institutions. Pocock extensively studied the zoological collection in the British Museum for years. Heptner and Sludskii were even translated into English.

Apart from this, I think that the information about sizes, weights and other characteristics of the Asiatic lion provided in this article is sufficient and well documented, and that Jaffa's opinion is irrelevant. Measurements of wildlife were important for zoologists in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Digging all of this old stuff out and adding it to articles about lion does not improve the resp. articles but overloads them with details. Contemporary zoologists long ago shifted focus to ecology and conservation issues. Why did you not yet? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 11:28, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * In that case, there is something else that I can see, using more than one source, for the Asiatic lion. Leo1pard (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I have a couple of comments here.
 * First, the content that has been reverted appears to be trivial. I would not include it in the article.
 * Second, the source originally provided appears to be self-published - a reliable source should have been provided
 * Third, I noticed the original source stated "This article was published in "Gazelle : The Palestinian Biological Bulletin". Number 58, October 2006, pp. 1-13.". I have managed to source the journal, but cannot find the article, so at the moment, I would say this is non-verifiable. DrChrissy (talk) 17:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree with DrChrissy on this one. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for confirming, DrChrissy and Dbrodbeck! Self-published seems to be Jaffa's trademark. Many years ago, I asked a colleague about this person and only received a laugh. --BhagyaMani (talk) 19:22, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Partly the point that I had when I said "In that case, there is something else that I can see ..." if one has to mention a work like that, then it should be backed up, in a reliable manner. Leo1pard (talk) 06:29, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The much larger part of the point is : you do NOT HAVE "to mention a work like that", nor back it up, because -- see above -- it is irrelevant and trivial . -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:20, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I was not talking about the strength of Iraqi lions compared to Indian lions. There is something 'symbolic' missing in this article, for which there are a number of sources. Leo1pard (talk) 12:49, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Gallery for any old photograph of an Asiatic lion outside Gir Forest or India
Today, I noticed a type of photograph that is different to photographs we would normally have. Normally, if you see a photograph of an Asiatic lion, then it would be a lion in Gir Forest, or, if it is in captivity, descended from lions in Gir, right? Look at this old photograph of a lion in Iran: Should there be a gallery for a photograph like this? Leo1pard (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2016 (UTC) Notice that it is roped up, which to me suggests that it is a wild lioness that ventured into human territory, or a pet that escaped a captor. Leo1pard (talk) 17:00, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Second thought
On second thought, I have decided to replace a sketch in the Section "Former range" with this photograph, because, that sketch does not really demonstrate that the Asiatic lion has been outside what is now Gujarat, and besides, it is available elsewhere. Leo1pard (talk) 18:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Historic range of the Asiatic lion
The sentence in the section ==Distribution and habitat==
 * "The historic range of the Asiatic lion of the Panthera leo Persica subspecies is believed to have extended from Northern India in the east through modern Iran, south throughout the periphery of the Arabian Peninsula and west into the Mediterranean towards modern Greece and Italy."

is referenced with this source (Barnett et. al 2006). I read this source word for word but did not find any sentence that would justify citing this source for the above sentence. Barnett et. al (2006) provides very little info about Asiatic lion habitat. I do not disagree in general using it in the context of this article, but only in the context of Asiatic lion distribution. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:27, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The historic range of the Modern lion can be seen in Figure 1 and Table 1 of Barnett et. al 2006. The fact that haplotypes M9 (Gir For. Sanct.), M10 (Iran, Mid.East), and M11 (North Africa, Mediterranean) are the same "mtDNA distance" from each other (Fig. 2) indicate they are least the same sub-species Panthera leo Persica' (Asiatic lion) and not the more distance Panthera leo leo (African lion).
 * You have also deleted:"Indeed, multiple fossil localities of the related subspecies Panthera leo spelaea have been discovered throughout North Africa, the Middle East, Siberia, Alaska and much of Europe going as far north as Scotland." This statement is supported by O’Brien et al. 1987 in Figure 1 and the text in first paragraph of page 115. -- Sjschen (talk) 22:27, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

For Barnett et. al (2006) see the third paragraph in the section Historical range of lions. Re: fossil records of Panthera leo spelaea -- O’Brien et al. (1987) refer to Kurtén (1968), which I referenced in the first paragraph of this same section. So I did not delete the references you used, but only moved them to this context of historic range, so that the section ==Distribution and habitat== focuses more on current range. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

That's true and talking about the present range is helpful, and having a discussion of the former range in another section. However the "Distribution and habitat" section still mentions talks about the historic range: "The Asiatic lion formerly occurred in Persia, Mesopotamia, Baluchistan, and in northern India where they once ranged to the state of Bihar..." This should be either (1)removed from the section or (2) updated to state that in its former range, P.leo Persica "... extended from Northern India in the east through modern Iran, south throughout the periphery of the Arabian Peninsula and west into the Mediterranean towards modern Greece and Italy."-- Sjschen (talk) 14:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I added this paragraph recently. But you are right : if we decide to put the focus on CURRENT range, then this shouldn't be there. I see two options now: either we move this to the section about historic range; or we make a subsection ===Former range===, into which we place all the info regarding P. l. persica, so that the section ==Historical range of lions== contains only info that is not about persica but about P. l. spelea and Panthera leo. What do you think ? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:56, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

That sounds good. having a "Former" and a "Current" range sections does sound better than piling them altogether, or isolating them in their a paragraph somewhere. -- Sjschen (talk) 15:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, let's try this again. As we have discussed and seen from [http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/273/1598/2119.full#xref-ref-27-1 Barnett et. al 2006], the information about the Asian lion subspecies P. l. persica, which consists of closely related modern lions of similar mtDNA genetic markers (M9,M10,M11) and range extending from North India into North Africa, belongs in the section "Former Range". They can be considered paleological, but they are at the very least also the same subspecies. The Holarctic cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea) can remain in the "Historical", which incidently is still a mess without coherent content. -- Sjschen (talk) 23:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sjschen. Nice that you are back, and we can continue our discussion. Let me start with questions, because am not sure whether I understood you right. You titled this subsection "paleological range". But is the prehistoric range really what you intend to describe ? After what you wrote above, I have the impression you refer much more to the similarities and differences -- genetical, morphological -- between the spelea and persica subspecies, maybe even including the African subspecies. If this is so, what do you think of titling this section "Evolution" ? That way we can shift the focus to how the Asiatic lion evolved from predecessors, both in time and space, and explain something like a migration route over the centuries until about the Middle Ages, or later. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I didn't think there was a need for further discussion and that we understood each other. I'm okay with the changes to the section now titled "Evolution" and rest of the the changes. But the following sentence describing the former range of the Asiatic lion hould be included back into section "Historical Range" in one form or another: This sentence does not describe the lion's evolution in the strictest sense but rather talks about the former range of the identifiable persica subspecies in recent history. It also shows that persica was prevalent throughout the range of Northern Africa, the middle east, all the way to India. -- Sjschen (talk) 19:21, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "The phylogenetic study revealed that the former range of the Asiatic lion extended across Northern India into Iran and the periphery of Arabia and into Northwest Africa. "

Lions in South India!
It is guessable that lions and tigers competed in areas where they existed, in the North, but did anyone notice that, perhaps due to being driven out from areas in the North, they migrated southwards? There is an article in The Sydney Mail, dated to the year 1889, that a lion and Bengal tiger fought in the region of Bangalore in what is now Karnataka in the South!
 * Three natural historians were well acquainted with Indian fauna in the 19th century: Jerdon, Sterndale and Blanford. All agree that lion was distributed in north-western and central India, but not in the south. For details see Jerdon (1874) Sterndale (1884) and Blanford (1889) -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:03, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking, they do no not say that the lion has never been in South India, and I noticed a difference in opinion about whether or not they were in the area of Cutch. It's a bit like you're using a sentence like this "In Africa, lions are found in Senegal, Kenya, Namibia, South Africa ..." to deny that they have been outside Africa, when that sentence is strictly talking about the distribution of lions in Africa, not about whether or not lions are found only in Africa. There are also some other things noteworthy about the reference I used. Leo1pard (talk) 13:41, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This does not make the story in The Sydney Mail a reliable source. Do you seriously want to suggest that Jerdon, Sterndale, Blanford and Pocock were wrong by omitting South India as lion range? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No, that article by the Sydney Morning Herald, about lions occurring in a place outside their regular range, does not mean that those guys were wrong. Strictly speaking, they mentioned that the lion occurred in the north, and they did not say that the lion did not occur in the South at all, so that article about lions occurring outside their range, at least once upon a time, does not really contradict those guys. Leo1pard (talk) 15:40, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This narrative does not have an author, i.e. is anonymous; and therefore none who could be regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject. See also Identifying reliable sources and reliable sources checklist -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)


 * According to the rules, it should be mentioned like this:
 * "The Sydney Mail Christmas Supplement (1889, xxvii) mentioned that a hunter went to a region where lions were not usually found, out of interest ... "
 * Is it? Leo1pard (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * According to the rules, neither anonymous author nor publisher is "authoritative in relation to the subject". But the Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society is, which published this article by Norman Boyd Kinnear in 1920 -- again no record listed anywhere south of central India. --BhagyaMani (talk) 18:49, 31 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Interestingly, that guy said "the southern limit APPEARS to be the Nerbudda River," but also mentions limitations to his knowledge of the lion's distribution, like about whether or not it was in the east, which was mentioned elsewhere. Apart from that, this source by the University of Minnesota does not say where it actually got its information on fights between lions and tigers, and it has been on Wikipedia for some time, and that's why I used that article by the Sydney Morning Herald, to back it up. Like you mentioned, sometimes, references have to be backed up, so, ignoring what the Sydney Mail (1889) said regarding an exceptional occurrence of the lion outside its regular range, is it fine at least to use these 2 sources to make a point of their main topics, that the Asiatic lion did indeed compete with the Bengal tiger, and this topic has been treated with relevance on Wikipedia, and there are references similar to the one by the Sydney Mail on this topic, such as that by the Gettysburg Compiler, which was backed up by a reference from the Baltimore Sun, about a fight between a Bengal tiger and Barbary lion, for some time now? Leo1pard (talk) 01:57, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I do not exclude the possibility per se that clashes and fights between lion and tiger occurred in the wild in India. But I do not consider articles in newspapers of the 19th century as valid evidence. These articles were meant to thrill the 19th century public about the "dangerous beasts" in far-away countries. Such incidents have not been authenticated at the time by zoologists and naturalists and cannot be authenticated any more today. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 11:34, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Apart from that, I would like to mention that you made a mistake in that edit to the former range, because one of them casts doubt as to whether or not the lion was in Khandesh, so you have an issue of conflict between references, or between what that reference said, and what you said. Leo1pard (talk) 02:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing the doubts re Khandesh out. I amended this. --

Second image of a cub
The article now has two images of cubs. Previously, I moved a sketch to another, related article, thinking that you would not wish to have another image here, but now, I think that that sketch that I moved to the article Wildlife of Iran might be useful to describe its characteristics, like that the Mesopotamian lion had a distinctive patch of hair on the belly, which can be seen for captive lions, and was seen for Barbary and Cape lions, in the past. Should I shift that second photograph of the cub to Wildlife of Iran, and move that sketch beck here? Leo1pard (talk) 09:54, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I have been thinking about deleting one of these images. There is no need to have two images of "a cub" unless these clearly show different aspects of the animal.  If you are going to edit these images, please indicate in the caption/s what they are intended to show. DrChrissy (talk) 17:00, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. Leo1pard (talk) 06:45, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

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