Talk:Aspartame/Archive 2

Discovery and Approval
This reads like a conspiracy theory with names thrown in there for no reason. Who was the FDA head at the time aspertame was not allowed, or the president, or involved in Monsato, etc.

196.27.25.131 15:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Jgraham


 * I agree with the basic thrust of this. I find the following problems with this section of article and the article in general:


 * 1. This is primarily a chemistry article. The political article is Aspartame controversy. Political discussion, especially of conspiracies, should be reduced in this article, except where it is directly, significantly and inexorably relevant to the compound itself and its synthesis, effects, etc. For example, why does it matter that Donald Rumsfeld was COO of Searle, or that Reagan was President at the time, when aspartame was approved? This section seems to vaguely imply some kind of conspiracy to foist a dangerous product on the masses - an allegation, however subtle, that should not be made without citations of appropriate supporting evidence.
 * 2. Also, nearly the entire second paragraph is sourced from a quote from an anti-aspartame researcher in footnote 6 - if it is sourced at all. The lone opinions of a single researcher, published without peer review (in a Salon.com article, no less), constitute original research at best and do not seem to be suitable as a source for a scientific article under Reliable sources, and especially not for discussing the inner machinations of the Reagan administration, unless representative of one side of a debate. Representing the researcher's opinions on the matter as fact is misleading.
 * 3. There are redundant links to Aspartame controversy, and expanding on it in numerous sections seems rather off-topic in each.


 * To help alleviate these problems, I propose:


 * 1. reducing the number of political references in the article in general or moving them to Aspartame controversy;
 * 2. deleting the second paragraph of this section and/or moving it to Aspartame controversy unless statements are properly sourced, and moving the conspiracy-alleging parts involving Reagan, Rumsfeld, Hayes etc. to Aspartame controversy in any case, or deleting them entirely; and
 * 3. that assertions about aspartame's negative effects, political maneuvering, and so on, should instead be condensed into a single, concise paragraph, with a link to the controversy article as the main article, rather than attempting to make each section a debate.


 * I will tag statements about the approval process without citations which I feel need them the most, but I will hold off on making any further edits until any interested parties watching this page respond.Jonroybal 10:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I would be against item #1 suggestion above until there are specific suggestions for specific passages. I don't know what a "political reference" is. Also, one person's "conspiracy" is another person's (or a whole population's) fact. But I'd be very interested in your specific text change ideas -- or at least the sentences you propose changing.


 * It would be relatively easy to source most of those statements in the 2nd paragraph. But if it is moved, then I would move the whole approval section and edit it appropriately to the "Aspartame Controversy" section (towards the end of that article). I don't think Reagan or Rumsfeld mentioned are negative as many liked Reagan and some like Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was brought in to help push the approval process along, so it is relevent, but I have no huge attachment to his name being mentioned in this article. I think Reagan should be mentioned along with the FDA Commissioner he appointed as that is relevent to the approval process.


 * I was against spliting the Aspartame article into two parts as not every controversial subject needs to be split. However, I recall that the editors agreed to clearly link to the Aspartame Controversy section at the start of this article as well as in a short Aspartame Controversy summary paragraph (as we currently do). I agree that we should avoid making each section a debate. What parts are you suggesting to do away with?


 * I look forward to all of us discussing the changes. Thanks! Twoggle 22:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to interpose that the opening statement in this article should be changed immediately. It reads that based on scientific research the current levels of the aspartame appear to be safe to consume. This may not be a direct quote but the proof is in the pudding. This article is slanted towards the positivity of it without weighing both sides so I guess I am calling the neutrality to question. Secondly scientific research that's referenced is not cited as a source in the reference so thats the second issue. Kcgs1989 (talk) 17:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * By all means interpose away, but current scientific research and world regulatory bodies agree that aspartame is safe for consumption. I'm not sure I follow your second issue. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 17:54, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The lead should be improved with a reliable source. QuackGuru (talk) 18:11, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The lead should summarise the body. I removed the tag because we can try and work this out without adding tags. QuackGuru (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Good article
This is a good article, which I think should work toward featured status if anything to raise awareness of the controversy. Supposed 20:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The fact that this article garners praise as a means to "raise awareness of the controversy," when in fact very little "controversy" exists, is further evidence of the article's non-NPOV. Bustter 20:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that "very little controversy exists". 65.184.221.57 19:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I also disagree, I just watched a documentary called "Sweet Misery". Very Informative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.57.98.33 (talk) 04:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm with 65.184 and 74.57. This article needs more work to make people aware of all the severe adverse affects of its consumption, and the science behind it. Killdec (talk) 18:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Alleged adverse effects. You're saying this can't be classified GA until it's reworked to fit your POV? There's an entire article about the controversy, and exactly ZERO adverse effects have been proven. Sorry. -- King Öomie 18:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No, I'm saying this can't be classified GA until it's reworked to fit the truth (and not some corrupt corporations POV)! For instance, in the very first paragraph it is stated: "A 2007 safety evaluation found that the weight of existing scientific evidence indicates that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a non-nutritive sweetener." from a very biased source: "sponsored and funded by Ajinomoto via the Burdock group, which screened the identities of the sponsor and researchers from each other." Who are Ajinomoto? A corportation that is one of the worlds largest producers of aspartame and monosodium glutamate (for instance, they produce 33% of the worlds supply of MSG). They have also been found guilty of various misconduct and crimes (almost as many as Monsanto), and fined hundreds of millions of dollars. They would certainly not allow studies that they funded that make their core product/s and themselves look bad to ever see the light of day.
 * [DON'T EDIT MY DISCUSSION POSTS]
 * Also, why aren't the FDA's 92 symptoms of aspartame included in this article? See source and list below.1

The 92 Side-Effects of Aspartame

Headache Dizziness or Problems with Balance Change in Mood Quality or Level Vomiting and Nausea Abdominal Pain and Cramps Change in Vision Diarrhea Seizures and Convulsions Memory Loss Fatigue, weakness Other neurological Rash Sleep problems Hives Change in Heart Rate Itching Change in Sensation (Numbness, Tingling) Grand Mal Local Swelling Change in Activity Level Difficulty Breathing Oral Sensory Changes Change in Menstrual Pattern Other Skin Other Localized Pain and Tenderness Other Urogenital Change in Body Temperature Difficulty Swallowing Other Metabolic Joint and Bone Pain Speech Impairment Other Gastrointestinal Chest Pain Other Musculo-Skeletal Fainting Sore Throat Other Cardiovascular Change in Taste Difficulty with Urination Other Respiratory Edema Change in Hearing Abdominal Swelling Change in Saliva Output Change in Urine Volume Change in Perspiration Pattern Eye Irritation Unspecified Muscle Tremors Petit Mal Change in Appetite Change in Body Weight Nocturnal Change in Thirst or Water Intake Unconsciousness and Coma Wheezing Constipation Other Extremity Pain Problems with Bleeding Unsteady Gait Coughing Blood Glucose Disorders Blood Pressure Changes Changes in Skin and Nail Coloration Change in hair or nails Excessive phlegm Production Sinus Problems Simple Partial Seizures Hallucinations Any Lumps Present Shortness of Breath on Exertion Evidence of Blood in Stool or Vomit Dysmenorrhea Dental Problems Change in smell DEATH Other Blood and Lymphatic Eczema Complex Partial Seizures Swollen Lymph Nodes Hematuria Shortness of Breath Due to Position Difficulties with Pregnancy (Children Only) Developmental Retardation Change in Breast Size or Tenderness Anemia Change in Sexual Function Shock Conjunctivitis Dilating Eyes Febrile


 * Do a google search for "92 aspartame site:fda.gov" and visit here. Killdec (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not an FDA report. That's a list of complaints SENT to the FDA. If I mail 800 letters to you complaining about your dog, that doesn't prove you even HAVE a dog. You apparently don't know how scientific studies work. The people providing the funding aren't told the result before the report is released. Also, see WP:THETRUTH. Please stop spreading this crockery. -- King Öomie 20:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "'...which screened the identities of the sponsor and researchers from each other.'"This part means the scientists performing these tests DID NOT KNOW they were being funded by ajinomoto, and therefore had no motivation to skew the result. -- King Öomie 20:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You clearly didn't look at my sources. I didn't call it a report, and it was produced by the FDA- it deserves to be addressed. Care to reference the claim that the identities were screened, using a source other than from themselves? Killdec (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I collapsed a 100-line list, which YOU should have done. I didn't edit anything you said. That "report" calls ITSELF a list of complaints. Did YOU read it? Also, I didn't see anything confirming its authenticity. Maybe if it was being hosted, I dunno, BY THE FDA, not a random person's website. WP:RS.
 * So wait, you're asking me to cite a citation? Do we have to do that now? I quoted something YOU said, and you're grilling me over whether it's true? Absurd.
 * Long story short, this is about as convincing as as the moon-landing conspiracy. This article will remain WP:NPOV, and that requires that we do not fill it with half-truths and garbage. Go troll at Aspartame controversy. -- King Öomie 20:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're a nasty, flamebaiting piece of work- doing everything you can to stifle views you disagree with (no matter how well-referenced). I'm especially sickened considering this is about the health issues of such a widely used product. You don't know what you're talking about, and are clearly far from qualified to be contributing on matters such as this.Killdec (talk) 20:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Alleged health issues. You can take your personal attacks elsewhere. Maybe you should brush up on Wikipedia policy before you start deciding what truthy information needs to be on a given page. -- King Öomie 21:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You call what I say garbage, you call me a troll, you relate my sourced argument (based upon FDA documents, pages from the FDA website and news articles) to the "moon-landing conspiracy", and call me a "truther," refer to everything I say as "alledged" and "half-truths" (without any kind of sourced rebuttal), edit my posts and try to archive the discussion in an attempt to censor my arguments, all without sourcing one of your claims. Then you have the audacity to call me the attacker for after all that calling you a nasty flamebater (which is what you are, by definition at least), and to claim I'm the one without the NPOV, whilst standing firm on your feeble incorrect claim that "exactly ZERO adverse effects have been proven" when a simple search of Google News provides hundreds of news sources to the contrary, and a simple search of Google Scholar provides thousands of peer-reviewed scientific journals to the contrary (such as here, here, and here). It's beyond belief to be frank. Killdec (talk) 22:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Any change you make to this article, in regards to 'health risks', will be reverted. And not even by me! Conversation over. -- King Öomie 23:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Moved out Aspartame controversy
Dear all, seen the sheer size of the 'aspartame controversy' part of this article, in comparison to the total size of the article (which is about a sweetener, a chemical compound), I decided to move out the who aspartame controversy into its own article, name aspartame controversy (that article is now 42 kb long!!!). That article needs quite some attention now, as it does e.g. not have a proper introduction. The article aspartame controversy is also linked from sugar substitute, which also contains a large section about the aspartame controversy, that paragraph may also be incorporated into 'aspartame controversy'. Happy editing! --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with splitting the article. But if the consensus is to move out the Health Risks Controversy section, then the main aspartame article must be meticulously NPOV. Of course, there would be no need to include POV text, links, etc. Also, I think it is obvious that the overwhelming amount of discussion about aspartame online and in general is about the controversial aspects of aspartame (possible health effects, approval issues, etc.) and therefore, link to that section should not be buried towards the end of the article.


 * Also, IMO, if Health Risk Controversy section is moved out, duplicate information and/or bias shouldn't created in the main article (except perhaps a very short introductory paragraph as exists now). In other words, I suggest either put the article back the way it was (my preference) or there should never be any POV in the main Aspartame article (text, links) related to the Health Risk Controversy. Twoggle 19:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This page is, as I said above, about a chemical compound. It is not about the aspartame controversy.  The difference in size between the two parts was just over the top.  I can agree with the section being relocated, or even an additional sentence in the intro!  I have tried to make the section about the controversy as NPOV as possible, and I will think about it further, but feel free to edit.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 20:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I looked at the order, and I don't see how the section could be moved up (I did not move it in the first place, anyway), the order now is (to me) logic: intro, what is it (chemistry), history/when and how was it discovered, what is it used for, and how is it metabolised. Do I have added a sentence to the intro, which could use some polishing, I think.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 20:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think your added mention early on is useful. I agree with you on the order of the sections. My main concerns revolved around 1) gradually adding text or links related to the controversy back to the main article instead of the Aspartame_Controversy article (assuming that the sections stay separated), and 2) sometime in the future pushing the Aspartame_Controversy article links way down on the page by adding a significant amount of text of some additional sections near the top. The main things I'm interested in is keeping the sections NPOV (main article without controversy and Aspartame_Controversy article describing the debate and scientific arguments in a balanced way) and making sure the text and resources people are looking for is easily-findable on Wikipedia. By the way, I do not think there is a single place on or off the Internet other than Wikipedia where readers can get a short yet adequately detailed description of boths sides of the scientific debate related to the aspartame issue. Twoggle 21:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent move! An article of this class should mention the controversy, but should focus on what aspartame is, and what it's used for.  It should NOT have 42 kB of controversy attached to it.  As the style guide says: "When there is enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own entry, that text can be excised from the present entry and replaced by a link." Walkerma 03:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This section seems rather biased to me, maybe needs a clean 132.181.7.1 (talk) 02:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the reference to Donald Rumsfield.

I first removed the allegation that Rumsfield received a fat bribe from Searle in April of 2006 because the allegation was undocumented, exceot at anti-aspartamr sites that all seem to have copied one another. Neither this article nor the "controversy" article offers any reliable source indicating that Rumsfield received any such bribe, though it is probable that he owned Searle stock and options whereby he legally profited. Since the aspartamr controversy article does not even mention Rummy, there's no reason for mentioning him here.Bustter (talk) 23:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Not suited for baking?
Not suited for baking? I think so but not because: "However, aspartame is not always suitable for baking because it often breaks down when heated and loses much of its sweetness." Normally you use regular sugar (reducing sugar! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reducing_sugar ) that produces a broad rage of reaction product with amio acids via the Maillard reaction (imin-form and cyclization). Aspartame can't do this since it is not a reducing sugar (or not a sugar at all). The reason given in the wiki is nonsense.
 * You are mistaken in concept. You are correct in that aspartame, as a non-sugar, cannot participate in the Maillard reaction as a sugar. However, the Maillard reaction ALSO reduces sweetness, in that the sugar is converted to other flavor compounds (Maillard is responsible for caramelization, for instance). Further, aspartame CAN participate in Maillard reactions as an amino acid.


 * Aspartame is not heat-stable; the compound DOES break down under heat, especially in acid environments, and reverts to individual amino acids which have no sweetness. This is the reason aspartame is not recommended as a sweetener for baking, both according to the manufacturer, and to the principles of chemistry.


 * Lastly, please sign your posts with ~ -- DrGaellon (talk | contribs) 12:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I doubt that I am mistaken. What is the point? For the Maillard reaction you need the amino group provided by amino acids and a (reducing) sugar. This makes (2) two components. If you substitute the reducing sugar with Aspartame then you have only one component (amino groups) and no reducint sugar. Hence, no Maillard reaction, no building or the aromatic subtances that give the taste in baking/cooking. It might brake down if heated (what? the peptide bond or the ester bond?) and yur product might loose sweetness. But sweetness is not the major point in baking/cooking but the maillard reaction is. Or do you believe you would just get a cake that does not taste sweet? Try it!


 * signing Sorry, I don't have an Wiki Accound. But if you show me how I can sign with my IP I will happily put it under my postings.

--KasemO 21:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sign by placing the signature mark - and it'll slap in your IP and date. If you have an account, it'll slap your account.
 * Is 'slap' a technical term? You're referring to template substitution. -- Kingoomieiii ♣    Talk   19:51, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

production
Hi. It would be great if the article talks about how Aspartame is produced. --Louiechefei28848888 03:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

a fairly detailed description of the process: http://www.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/aspartame

Using this as a cite, perhaps someone will care to write a simplified description? Bustter (talk) 18:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Ensuring readers know about the controversy
Hi. I see the reason why the controversy section was moved, however I feel that the controversy is very real, and has authentic scientific research supporting the fact the Aspartame is potentially dangerous. Given that point, I feel that the controversy section is too played down in the main article and that it would benefit by being made more prominent (which could be done without expanding it again). Thanks. Aminto 22:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

AS "dangerous" as aspartame may be, I'd rather consume that than the 5 gallons of high fructose corn syrup the average American does on a daily basis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.184.12.85 (talk) 18:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I would not. Aspartame is absurd mass poisoning of people. I have used it, and it fucked me up. IT IS POISON. No doubt about that. And they just lie to you: fruits have more methanol, meat has more phenylalanine? What a load of crap. Fruits and meat are not toxic. Aspartame is. --88.192.67.2 (talk) 22:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Arguments from personal incredulity really fall flat when you're simply incorrect. Fruit juices literally DO contain more methanol than aspartame, and as an amino acid (as opposed to a deadly, deadly poison), phenylalanine has a relatively ENORMOUS presence in meat. It's found in human breast milk, for crying out loud. None of these things make you ill, and yet they're the reason aspartame is a "poison"? Maybe you should be re-evaluating whether aspartame is really dangerous, rather than questioning established scientific fact. Also, your anecdotal evidence of "I drank soda, and didn't feel good" is correlative, not causative, and thus is completely worthless. -- Kingoomieiii ♣    Talk   20:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Taking efforts to "ensure readers know about the controversy" isn't the "neutral" thing to do; it's as non-neutral as it would be to ensure that readers learn that the health concerns are bogus. Bustter (talk) 00:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I see no problem with the link to the controversy article currently on the page. If people come here to learn about the controversy, they will be pointed there. It's up to that page to stay neutral; deleting a link to a non-neutral page as opposed to fixing it is not constructive. -- Kingoomieiii ♣    Talk   20:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Diketopiperazine
I think the bit about the particular diketopiperazine that is a metabolite of aspartame being a known carcinogen is dubious, so I have removed it. If it is true, finding a primary source in the scientific literature to support this claim should be easy, and it can then be added back in. Deli nk (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Need citation? Go to pubmed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.239.63 (talk) 14:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, you need a citation. If it's so easy to find, then please find it.  It is the responsibility of the person adding information to source it.  Wikipedia policy is that disputed, unsourced information should be removed from an article.  I see that you are insistent on adding it back in spite of this policy, but I won't edit war with you over it.  Please simply find a source that supports it.  Deli nk (talk) 21:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have searched the chemical and medical literature and found two toxicological studies of the diketopiperazine metabolite of aspartame. Neither study found any evidence of carcinogencity.  The first study ("Toxicity of aspartame and its diketopiperazine for Wistar rats by dietary administration for 104 weeks."     Ishii, Hiroyuki; Koshimizu, Toshio; Usami, Shuji; Fujimoto, Tsumoru.  Toxicology  (1981),  21(2),  91-4.), conducted in rats, concluded "these treatments were without toxic effect."  The second study ("Chronic feeding studies with aspartame and its diketopiperazine."     Ishii, Hiroyuka.   Food Science and Technology, (1984),  12,  307-19.), conducted in rats and dogs, reports that these compounds  "did not cause any biolically meaningful alterations."  Hope this helps.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 11:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Since this seems to be a persistent issue: For what it's worth, the biological activities of diketopiperazines have been reported and reviewed in the scientific literature - Maristela B. Martins and Ivone Carvalho (2007). "Diketopiperazines: biological activity and synthesis". Tetrahedron 63: 9923–9932.  There is no mention of carcinogenicity - but it does highlight antitumor properties. -- Ed (Edgar181) 17:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You might as well mention that the study in question was sponsored by Monsanto and/or its aspartame-producing subsidiary. So much for its or any of your, for that matter, credibility. Thanks for the good laugh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.210.170 (talk) 22:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.15.129 (talk)   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.221.80 (talk)
 * I've removed the silly insults again - please act like an adult. The paper mentioned above is a review article, written by chemists at University of Sao Paulo.  The review article is not based on research they have done, but is rather a review of the scientific literature published by others.  It cites the work of 48 other research groups around the world studying very narrow fields (calcium channels, plasminogen activor inhibitors, antihyperglycaemic agents, sortoninergic 5-HT1A receptors, etc).  If you are going to invoke some kind of vast pro-aspartame conspiracy to explain how and why Monsanto (or whoever) would fund all that research, and how they could possibly anticipate that diketopiperazines would be found to be useful in those areas of research, you had better have quite an imagination.-- Ed (Edgar181) 18:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
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ASPARTAME
THE CLAIM THAT ASPARTAME IS IN OVER 6000 IS THE MOST MISLEADING QUOTE I HAVE FOUND TO DATE ON THE INTERNET...Any and all Web Searches will never find a list of 6000 Products, as a Mater of Fact, It's almost Imposible to find a List of any size, PERIOD. That said, It Screams Volumes to how far reaching the cover up and the involvement to mislead the consumers by the FDA and Corporate Food and Chemical Companies have gone to Kill People and Drive up the cost of there Health Care. _ UBUIBIOK    Have a Better Day. UBUIBIOK (talk) 20:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right. There is no list of products available. For a short time, there were some people trying to keep up with a list, but it proved too daunting. The estimates for the number of products come from NutraSweet scientists (not that their estimates are necessarily accurate). "At present, it is estimated that aspartame is used in approximately 6000 different products worldwide." Butchko, Harriett, et al., "Aspartame" in "Alternative Sweeteners" Edited by Lynn O'Briend Nabors, Copyright 2001 by Marcel Dekker, Inc. Twoggle (talk) 01:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Government Studies and FOIA Data
Repeated attempts have been made to remove U.S. FDA Government research and data from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (obtained by Freedom of Information Act) as a reference to the [aspartame] and [Aspartame Controversy] articles.

Please see the full discussion at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aspartame_controversy#Government_Studies_and_FOIA_Data Twoggle (talk) 02:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Presidotex.com is not a reliable source. There is a discussion at Reliable sources/Noticeboard Tom Harrison Talk 12:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Discussions about edits to the aspartame and aspartame controversy page belong on their respective Talk pages. I started the discussion on the Talk page in an attempt to work out a consensus and so that we can clarify in great detail all of the concerns. Since the published source of the documents are the U.S. Government and they are being made available on a page you apparently do not agree with, we simply need to have a discussion in order to find a solution for listing government references on the aspartame pages. I look forward to your participation in such a discussion. Twoggle (talk) 16:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Discussions about reliable sources also can appropriately take place on the reliable sources noticeboard. I don't think policy can be changed through discussions on article talk pages. Doug Weller (talk) 13:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. However, my two points are that: 1) notice should be given to concerned parties. In this case, aspartame references were being discussed, but none of the Editors were informed. I was eventually informed, but not before someone determined that the debate had reached a "consensus." 2) Once changes to the aspartame pages are taking place and the Editors disagree with those changes, then I believe the Talk page is exactly the right page to discuss these issues on. 15:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

"Health risks"
Schmeltzer's 2004 article in the Tribune says nothing about health risks. The loss of market share is attributed to marketing. Tom Harrison Talk 12:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Pointing to Aspartame Controversy web page.
Part of the agreement / consensus for spliting the aspartame page into the aspartame and aspartame controversy web pages was to include a prominent pointer to the aspartame controversy web page. This makes sense as the overwhelming number of web pages and scientific journal articles and newspaper articles on the subject are not about the chemistry alone, but about the controversies (e.g., health, possible conflicts of interest, etc.).

Referencing another Wikipedia web page is tremendously comment and not against Wikipedia guidelines. For example, the Wikipedia page on self-references http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-reference starts with a pointer to another prominent web page on a similar subject matter: "For the Wikipedia guideline, please see Wikipedia:Avoid self-references." The Wikiepedia web page on Avoiding self-references starts with the sentence, "For the guideline on autobiographies, see Wikipedia:Autobiography." The Wikipedia article on Citing Sources starts with the sentence, "For information on citing Wikipedia articles, see WP:CITEWIKI." There are countless other examples.

Therefore, I think we would have to remove all of the above pointers in Wikipedia articles if there is a guideline against these pointers. But perhaps there is a style suggestion that the pointer to an article on a similar subject needs to be at the top in italics? 03:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twoggle (talk • contribs)


 * Okay, I changed it to what countless other Wikipedia web pages do, which is a pointer at the top, outside of the article area. This way, it is done in a standard way and it doesn't bury/hide any subject matter -- which was my original concern with spliting the web pages. Twoggle (talk) 03:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There are hidden instructions in that section telling potential editors of the section to not do so, but to edit the Controversy article itself. The section is a reproduction of the LEAD from that article, which should be sufficient here. Since IP vandals often target this section, I have requested semi-protection for this article. -- Fyslee (talk) 04:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems a bit much to have the lead be carried over verbatim since lead style isn't the same as article style. For example, "The artificial sweetener aspartame has been" would just be "Aspartame has been..." Also, more importantly, much of the information in this section replicates information found elsewhere in the article. (Though perhaps that means the rest of the article should be changed and not this section).


 * On a mostly unrelated note, I changed the section title to "Safety controversy," since, after all, safety is the focus of the controversy. It was quickly changed back. I was wondering why one would think "Safety controversy" was worse than "controversy." Controversies can be about all kinds of things, after all. Gruntler (talk) 21:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Germany
In the UK, foods that contain aspartame must list the chemical among the product's ingredients and carry the warning "Contains a source of phenylalanine" Germany too. We also have the warning "Enthält eine Phenylalaninquelle" on our packages. You may add this to the article. -andy 92.229.167.169 (talk) 15:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Countries That Banned Aspartame?
The article states that many countries found aspartame to be safe but it does not list any countries that have banned it in children's foods or outright. My understanding is that aspartame has been banned in the Philippines and Romania outright due to health concerns. Can anyone confirm this?24.83.148.131 (talk) 10:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)BeeCier

True or false?
Once on one of Discovery Networks channels, I heard that aspartame is found naturally in bananas or that bananas are the only thing that can naturally produce aspartame.
 * Don’t believe that crap. Aspartame got specifically developed as a biochemical weapon. It was on the government list for such potential weapons. But it was not a very good one. Then they noticed that it was sweet, when diluted, and sold it to the public. Monsanto does not even blink in the face of the health risks this creates.
 * They pay millions over millions to create fake studies, stating every lie they need. And they get trough, because thye have a revolving door with the government. Then the news media pick up on it (or get payed to do so).
 * Traditional news media really is the worst place you could look for any truths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.220.255.59 (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Introduction to the controversy
There's a bit of an edit war going on around the introduction to the controversy in the lead. The current version reads "For information about this compound's safety, see aspartame controversy." The alternate version reads "For the controversy about this compound, see aspartame controversy."

The former is simply inaccurate, as the aspartame controversy article is not about the safety of the compound (although that is of course relevant), it's about the controversy. I don't see how the latter, which in essence is saying "for the aspartame controversy, see aspartame controversy" can be POV. It's just restating the topic almost verbatim, and does not suffer from any POV problems. Neither does the former, but it's inaccurate.

Please, rather than edit warring, discuss the issue here. Greenman (talk) 21:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There might be an issue about the safety but the only controversy I see is editors asserting there is a controversy when no controversy exists according to MEDRS sources. QuackGuru (talk) 22:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * QuackGuru, as discussed at length on that page, the controversy is not dependant on whether MEDRS say there is one. It's broader than that. I think you fail to distinguish between medical studies, and the broader social aspects around the controversy.Greenman (talk) 23:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Refs like urban legends are not reliable. According to which reliable MEDRS source there is a real controversy. I don't see it. QuackGuru (talk) 23:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC).


 * I will repeat the point again :) It's not only about MEDRS. The existence of a controversy is not a MEDRS issue. Greenman (talk) 23:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No MEDRS ref has been provided that says there is a real controversy. According to what policy we should ignore MEDRS. QuackGuru (talk) 23:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please don't twist words. No one is saying ignore MEDRS. However, according to WP:RS there are other reliable sources, not just MEDRS. The Washington Post is patently a reliable source. The Washington Post and many others talk about the controversy. Therefore we write an article about it :) Greenman (talk) 23:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Using an old ref like The Washington Post fails MEDRS. We should not ignore MEDRS. QuackGuru (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

QG, you're being disingenuous. MEDRS applies ONLY to scientific nitty-gritty, but according to Wikipedia's intent and the NPOV policy, articles must cover all significant POV regarding a subject, including those which aren't discussed in MEDRS. While the mainstream scientific community doesn't dispute the safety of aspartame, and it's pretty much only @#$cases who fall for the conspiracy theories, the now-absurd controversy does exist in the real world, and we document it in the Aspartame controversy article using all relevant sources that discuss that controversy, which obviously will include some fringe sources and non-MEDRS sources. Please stop your disruptive arguments. We've seen this behavior before and it needs to stop. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It is absurd to claim there is a controversy when the refs are unreliable. QuackGuru (talk) 07:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The sources are reliable for this purpose. Even though the controversy itself has been shown to be without legitimate scientific basis, it does exist in fringe circles, and that controversy is widespread and has been commented on by reliable sources which document the existence of the controversy, and set the record straight about its inaccuracy. QG, it's time to stop what amounts to a campaign that destabilizes and vandalizes an article that documents a very real controversy, absurd as that controversy may be. -- Brangifer (talk) 13:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Failed verification
The ref failed verification. For now I made this change. QuackGuru (talk) 22:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how. Please explain. The full reference (not just the summary) mentions the controversy numerous times. Greenman (talk) 23:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The issue is safety. Needs to be rewritten for NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 23:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * QuackGuru, your arguments are making less and less sense. Now you make a straw man argument. I point out that the ref is valid, you ignore the evidence (which was prominent on the first page of the reference) and change the topic to NPOV. Please see the consensus reached on the aspartame controversy page. Greenman (talk) 23:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see MEDRS. This newer source does not say anything about a controversy. According to which MEDRS article there is a controversy. I don't see it. QuackGuru (talk) 00:03, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Everyone stop the edit warring
QG, you know better than to edit war without discussion here. You have pretty clearly violated 3RR and can be blocked even if you stop now. The rest of you, please don't edit war. Even if you haven't technically violated 3RR, it's still a bad idea. Being right is no excuse. Those editors who are making sure the section that links to the Aspartame controversy continues to discuss a controversy are correct, and QG is wrong to attempt to hide the matter and disguise it. Even though I think the controversy is absurd and that aspartame is safe in normal doses, except for a very small group of people, the controversy exists in the real world and it is our job to describe it properly. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

chelating effects
Aspartame has interesting chelating effects. This has been studied pretty extensively in the scientific literature:. Anyone wanna take a stab at incorporating this material into the article? Some of it is just interesting from a purely chemical standpoint but it also has been the centerpoint for controversy over potential health effects. Cazort (talk) 12:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Monsanto documentary
''94.220.255.59 commented here on 12 June 2009 at 18:01; because these comments violate WP:TALK and WP:BLP, they have been redacted. The IP user alleged that a specific corporation had infiltrated governments, falsified studies, otherwise lied, murdered "thousands and thousands of people around the globe" and undermined Wikipedia. The user also referred to a film available on several websites that do not constitute reliable sources. Please note that any similar allegations must be supported by reliable sources, or they will be removed.'' Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You're aware that "Documentary" doesn't mean "True", right? The thing about a documentary on a subject like this is, they display ONE SIDE of the issue, for AN HOUR, with no alternate viewpoints (or at least none that are presented fairly). This is called fact-picking, and it is ASTOUNDINGLY effective at swaying the opinion of people who don't know better. This is a conspiracy theory through and through, with no more merit than the 'moon landing hoax'. -- Kingoomieiii ♣   Talk   18:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kingoomieiii here. Monsanto is a very creepy company.  But one-sided documentaries are hardly appropriate as sources.  If you feel moved by watching such a documentary, a more constructive approach would be to go out there and do research, finding reliable sources.  Believe me, there are plenty of sources out there.  And there's already a very good wikipedia article on Monsanto.  The most reliable sources out there already paint a very negative picture of the company, from the dumping of chemicals to farmer suicides in India to lobbying to patent issues in the U.S.  There's no need to fish around in sensationalistic promotional media here.  Cazort (talk) 12:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Overly-competitive, arguably illegal business practices != company of mad scientists on a mission to destroy the human race. And by the way, this entire thread really should have been made at Aspartame controversy. Putting it like here is like spamming Automobile with "never trust Honda". And if you intended to make sure more people saw it, whether or not this was the place for it... Wikipedia is not a soapbox.  -- Kingoomieiii ♣    Talk   13:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, if the only way you can defend a claim is to further claim that the company is "controlling everything", it may be time to take a step back, and try to look at this from the outside. It's hilarious to me that this entire health controversy is rooted in a conspiracy theory with less corroboration than the "moon landing hoax" people. And there have been documentaries on THAT, too. -- Kingoomieiii ♣    Talk   13:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think wikipedia already does an outstanding job at curbing sock puppets and intervention by corporations or by any special interest group. The pages on most corporations demonstrate the fact that they cannot control information on wikipedia.  Any major criticism in reliable sources quickly appears on the corporation's main page and stays there.  Furthermore, the open nature of edit histories exposes any systematic abuse; the NY Times wrote a great article on this:   Cazort (talk) 15:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup. Systemic abuse is taken VERY SERIOUSLY. Church of Scientology computers are perma-banned from editing scientology-related articles for such abuse of neutral point of view and wikipedia guidelines regarding conflict of interests in editing. So unless you plan to claim Monstanto has paid off the Wikimedia Foundation, and dozens of long-time editors... -- Kingoomieiii ♣    Talk   15:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The statements by 94.220.255.59 at the outset of this section are inflammatory and lack proper sources; additionally, they do not appear to follow the guidelines of WP:TALK, as they seem to be an attack on a specific corporation, not an attempt to improve the article. I plan to redact these problematic and baseless accusations unless other editors object. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 17:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * While I object to content blanking in general, WP:BLP extends to active companies, so go ahead. But if you could sanitize the comment rather than erasing this entire section, that'd be nice. -- Kingoomieiii ♣    Talk   18:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)