Talk:Aspen Education Group/Archive 1

DISPUTE NPOV
It looks like we've got someone attempting to change Wiki to suit their own interests. Wikipedia is not the place for that. The article probably does need some NPOV cleanup but attempting to replace real information with something straight off of Madison Avenue is not unbiased. Eugenitor 21:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

This article has been continually edited by someone with a personal grudge against Aspen Education Group. Each school entry is filled with misrepresentations, personal, unvalidated anecdotes, and have the same egregiously biased tone. Calling students "Detainees" is one clear and obvious example of utter bias. Any attempts to modify the entry with fact and references to back it up are immediately deleted en toto by this person. Clearly this is an abuse of wikipedia - a small group of people hostile to therapeutic programs are using it as a soapbox for their bizarre and poorly substantiated allegations. Rmagick 20:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Why remove the section about Aspen Family Camp
IP-number 207.182.240.130 has removed info about Aspen Family Camp from Aspen mainpage on wikipedia. Someone seems interested in remove any relationship between the main company and the failed family program.

But:

The phone number on the homepage of Aspen Family Camp is: (888) 972-7736 See: http://www.aspenfamilycamp.com/

The phone number listed on the mainpage from Aspen is: (888) 972-7736 See: http://www.aspeneducation.com/

I have traced the IP number to:


 * CustName: Aspen Youth Services
 * Address: 5155 Rosecrans Ave #300
 * City: Hawthorne
 * StateProv: CA
 * PostalCode: 90250
 * Country: US
 * RegDate: 2002-06-28
 * Updated: 2002-06-28
 * NetRange: 207.182.240.128 - 207.182.240.191

So my modest question is: Why do you deny relationship with this program?

I know that a family program has a very little chance of succes regardless of the fact, that such a program properly is the best solution for 70 % of the families and 100% better for the children because abuse is very diffifult to do when the parents are in the eyesight of the child.

Yet the risk of failure is very high due to the fact that most parents would bail out when the situation become harsh and someone starts to be hungry and dirty. No one wants to be in the wilderness under similar conditions as the adolecents -accept that. They are only there because they are forced there.

Be honest. Tell the world that you have tried. It is well documented both by you and Anasazi (Spoiler: Brat Camp Season five has not been aired, but at least one of the children made it home unchanged and now they can not force her back.).

Covergaard 10:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Why do you edit the page from within Excel academy in Conroe, Texas
It is just too obvious. If you want to hide the NPOV truth, at least do it from a internet connection from another town.

http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=207.70.181.186

Can be traced to Conroe, Texas.

Please restore the NPOV page or another user will do the job for you

Covergaard 20:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Detainee - explanation
I use the term detainee, because the children are detained there. Opposite students they can not leave the schools or wilderness programs.

They have not broken a law. They have not been in court room. They have not been entitled to legal defence. Someone - often their parents - has ordered them to be locked up.

The newspaper articles, deaths, rapes are not invented for the purpose of this article. They are real events.

I am a Dane. I have never been in a program. So I describe it as any European would describe it. As far as our standards in Europe would define the kind of business Aspen Education run, it is private prisons and ordered behavior modification.

Behavior modification is not a term invented by me. This article was written by totally different persons.

I dont find the article biased. Perhaps we give our citizens better legal guarantee. Perhaps we have laws, that see to our citizen - children and adults - have to be in court before they are detained or treated against their will.

Covergaard 21:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * "Detainee" is actually a formal term and doesn't sound quite right in the situation. Inmate is more appropriate.Eugenitor 01:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Being that a good deal of the kids taking to these placements are transported against their will and/or in anticipation there of, I think detainee is well and good, though this is a bit of a moot detail. FerventDove 08:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It is behavior modification
From: http://www.turnaboutranch.com/

Under the list of things they claim to fix by parental outsourcing:

Through consistent correction of negative behaviors and encouragement of positive behaviors in this hard-working, down-to-earth ranch environment, the seedling of a new, "turned-about" life emerges

From behavior modification

Behavior modification is a technique of altering an individual's behaviors and reactions to stimuli through positive and negative reinforcement of adaptive behavior and/or the extinction of maladaptive behavior through positive and negative punishment.

It seems to very much alike.

Covergaard 07:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it isn't. The fact that words are synonymous does not make two terms mean the same thing. "Changing behavior" or "correcting negative behavior" and "encouraging positive behavior" are very general terms for things that parents and teachers endeavor to do with children. Behavior modification is, on the other hand, a specific term for a specific controversial technique in psychology. You have no basis for asserting that these schools use that technique.--orlady 14:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

On the TV-show Brat Camp, which were filmed at Turnabout Ranch they were not allowed outside the 2x2 meters stone circles before they acknowledged the impact letter made by their parents. Although some of the claims in the impact letter later was found out not to be quite true, the children had to accept the contents in order to leave the stone circle. We are not talking hours. We are talking days! Also several of the children were forced to remove stools from cows and hourses in order to remove some of the bad language the counselors claimed they had (The counselors was american and the children from England. Some translation problems occured and the children were punished.) At one point a mother of one of the girls said on television that she had thought of killing herself based on the actions of the girl.) What does it take to achieve the status Behavior modification in relationship to normal parenting?

Covergaard 14:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I also have to quote:

Level I is designed to disorient and upset the youth's everyday patterns of defiance and control. It is designed to take the rebellious, selfish, undisciplined, defiant, or unmotivated youth and strip him or her of old defenses, attitudes, and facades.

Rules are enforced and time is very structured. No free time is allotted, and each youth is directed, taught, encouraged, confronted, and held accountable for his or her actions. Students begin to work on goals and are required to complete them before they can move to the next level in the program. It should be remembered that as a student "earns" their way to a higher level, they can also "earn" their way back to a lower level through improper behavior.

Covergaard 14:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Your reasoning is a fallacious syllogism. The fact that (1) their methods are intended to change behavior and (2) you do not approve of their methods (and others agree with you) does not make their methods "behavior modification".--orlady 16:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

List of stimuli:


 * Food, starts with raw porridge oats and water until the child acknowledge the impact letter. Then the child is taught how to make a bowdrill fire, so the food can be heated. As the child raise through the level a more varied food is introduced.
 * Chores, first they only have to clean the 2x2 meter stone circle they are sitting in. On level two easy chores are given as reward, hard chores are given as punishment.
 * Communication, no talking at all during level one. Censored letter only communication with the parents. As the child reach higher level, phone communication with a therapist in the room to stop "unbeneficial" conversation is a reward
 * Family: The child is not accepted back to his or her family before the program is completed. The graduation ceremony contains a kind of ritual adoption proces.
 * Religion: The child has to attend a certain church in Escalante regardless of their fait.(That is how we helped the family of "Kaye" to be free her. Disguised her family members managed to get her to sign emancipation paper. Because her mother did not want to have the reports about investigation into child abuse thrown into court, she got to live with her family.) However, the church service is regarded as reward. Denial to attend the church service results in level drops.
 * Horse-riding: A positive stimuli.

A lot of these stimulis are not normal parenting. As a parent I would be under investigation, if I use food as punishment. BTW: Why is Behavior modification a controversial technique. On New_Leaf_Academy the word "criticized" could not be used in relationship with Erik_Erikson regardless of the fact that his word is criticized.

Covergaard 06:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Turnabout Ranch is not the only one to use such a system. This may be considered OR, but SageWalk uses a system of rewards and puinishment, mostly food related (Timely mug cleaning, for example, allows for spices such as salt to be used with meals, where as unflavored farina was used as a puinishment.]] If this was on the television program Brat Camp, citations would appreciated, but all I have is a first hand account, which isn't much. FerventDove 08:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Aspen claims to uses Behavior Modification
This is a link to Aspen's website that states clearly that they useBehavior Modification —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hanzomon4 (talk •contribs) 13:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC).


 * One fact sheet does not make Aspen a "behavior modification organization", as some contributors insist. There are many other fact sheets listed at http://www.aspeneducation.com/factsheetindex.html that do not mention behavior modification, such as http://www.aspeneducation.com/factsheettherapy.html, and some that even use the term "behavior modification" but say they don't use it in some programs: http://www.aspeneducation.com/factsheetpeerpressure.html ("Lone Star Expeditions is a therapeutic intervention program with a focus on insight-oriented experiences, rather than behavior modification.")--orlady 14:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Reverting to an add
Somehow the original article was written as close to NPOV as possible for an European author. That meant a number balanced references to both positive and negative newpaper references.

Now it is a close to an add as it comes. I am not going to revert it, because I am a European and it would be considered biased. Maybe it is better if the article doesn't exist at all. You can not describe it properly before it is historical like KZ-camps.

If someone would put it up for deletion, it would be the best.

Covergaard 08:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

To Uncle G
It is obvious, that this article only can be tagged as either under dispute or as an add.

Every single link to newspaper articles about the number of children killed or molested in these program (which is the purpose of these program in their nature), are considered biased. Leaving the article as an add pose a danger of new deaths.

You can also see from the long history that there is no way in between. It have been tried, but they have so many locations to revert it into an add from, that it is impossible to complain and stop their modifications.

I created the original article but have realised that it was an error. I live in a country, that gives some human rights to children, because we have ratisfied this UN convention: Convention on the Rights of the Child. Little did I realize that this comany operate in one of the two countries, which have not ratisfied it.

I don't think that they some just one second think as the children as other human beings, so they would keep reverting it -not because they are evil or inhumane, but because they don't understand what they are dealing with.

So the article should be deleted.

Covergaard 17:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Additional sources, which could be built into the article by an american and therefore not biased author

 * Bromley Brook:
 * A Business Built on the Troubles of Teenagers, New York times, august 2005
 * Copper Canyon:
 * COPPER CANYON ACADEMY
 * Youth Care:
 * Behavior modification centers abusive, dangerous (11/04), The Lowell
 * Aspen Generally:
 * 
 * Aspen parents question whether classroom yoga teaches religion (September)
 * Mount Bachelor Academy:
 * Fixes Homosexuality aka "Sexual identity issues". Comfirmed by add.
 * Outcome study of SUWS and AAA, shows a very poor succesrate compared to competitors.Theoretical Basis, Process, and Reported Outcomes of Wilderness Therapy as Intervention and Treatment for Problem Behavior in Adolecents, University of Idaho
 * Academy of Swift River:
 * Son's fatal overdose consumes ex-pitcher, Palm Beach Post
 * Hard Lesson, Old Valley Advocate (Local Newspaper)
 * Frightened Parents, Big Business, Old Valley Advocate (Local Newspaper)
 * Lawsuit in relationship with a inmate at the facility, Hamilton-Wenham Public Schools v. Student and the Department of Social Services
 * About the facility - Told by a former student
 * About the failure of the previous kind of therapy
 * Aspen Ranch:
 * Random checkup showed that a therapist was not licensed. No further investigation was done because the ranch is a huge employer in the area.
 * The use of the Ranch as entertainment in relationship with a Dr. phil show, Dr. Phil show homepage
 * More of the same, Dr. Phil show homepage
 * Claim from the defence in a trial that a inmate confessed to being raped because it could give the inmate privileges at the Ranch
 * Statement from a former inmate

Covergaard 18:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Death at Lone Star Expeditions
Matthew Meyers died september 19, 2004. The case number at Trinity County District Court is 19631 and it was filed on July 31, 2006.

They got one more. RIP

Covergaard 06:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I find this very interesting; can it be sourced? It could be very meaningful to the articleFerventDove 07:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Aspen Ranch
I saw the previous editabout Aspen Ranch. This is the page for Aspen Education Group - the company who owns the ranch.

I feel that an article should be made on Aspen Ranch too. Regarding the suicide it needs sources. Outside wikipediaa victim list for youth who have died during or shortly after leaving residential care is maintained.

You can add sources there or here (Obituaries, newspaper articles etc.), so it can be included in a new entry.AngelaBurns (talk) 07:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)