Talk:Aspies For Freedom/Archive 1

link to 'aspies for forgiveness'
Someone added this, it was removed anonymously incorrectly citing 'vandalism', I reverted, it was re-reverted citing vandalism and stalking. I want discussion rather than an unwinnable revert war with sockpuppets. Seems to me this site by autism auther Eric Chen is relevant counterpoint, the name 'aspies for forgiveness' appears to refer to 'aspies for freedom', and I added a brief description hoping to clarify the oppositional nature. As Amy says below, "If there was criticism of the aims of the group, or that discussed the cure issue, so be it." It must be noted that opposing POVs to AFF aren't always pro-cure, but are also pro-integration. CalG 03:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

CalG is a sock puppet of JoeMele who is banned

This page needs deletion or a criticism section
This is a puzzle that I'm struggling to understand. What is Aspies For Freedom? A forum or an organisation? Does it have forum users or members? Leaders or owners? When its only visible activist Joe Mele was removed from the group, all that happened, as far as I can tell, is his account was banned from the forum. Notable or not? My instinct says that the entire Template:Autism_rights_movement template is a fiction, documenting nothing more than a clever manipulation of Google and Wikipedia. This is not dmoz - a directory of websites - but an encyclopedia of things that exist whether or not websites about them also exist.

I can accept that Aspies For Freedom and the Autism Rights Movement may have willed themselves off the page and into existence, as other themed web communities have. To whetever extent these sites, groups, activities, notables exist outside their own imagination, criticism of them also exists, in abundance. Mostly regarding their autocratic governance and how the boundaries are shifted at will due to its amorphous, semi-fictional state as outlined above. One confusing complaint of many available: User_talk:66.106.91.145 (bottom).

I'm proposing deletion of this page to draw discussion. I expect it to remain, but hopefully in a form that better reflects reality. Whatever that proves to be. CalG 05:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * above comment was edited by amy nelson, please check logs for full discussion. CalG 03:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This user CalG has targeted myself and my husband personally on the chatautism discussion page for no valid reason. It seems that this is another attempt to personally criticise that has nothing to do with the Aspies For Freedom page, but more some kind of personal vendetta. Aspies for freedom is a non-profit autism and asperger's group. There have been numerous protests, people meeting, and groups in real life. There have been numerous events as part of Autistic Pride Day which we established. The aspies for freedom site is listed on dmoz. If I choose to have personal websites it absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. I hope that the user CalG will stop using personal feelings about myself as an excuse to cause hassle for me on wikipedia, with his disparaging comments. AmyNelson 23:16, 22 June 2006 (BST)


 * My investigations into the autism rights movement suggest that yourself and your husband personally are indistinguishable from Aspies for Freedom, which is not an organisation in any understood sense. Criticism appears wherever Aspies for Freedom are mentioned, as I noted in my reply on the Chatautism discussion.  That this page lacks a Criticism section makes it poorly reflective of reality. That this page exists at all seems a little cheeky.  Other than Joe Mele's protest the protests are evidently non-notable.  The meetings, etc... well, lots of online groups meet, but I don't need this information.  It's cruft.  CalG 00:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

My husband and I founded the group, we are not the group itself, we are a part of it with over 1600 members. If there was criticism of the aims of the group, or that discussed the cure issue, so be it, but there is no excuse for personal attacks against my husband and myself. We are not notable, nor famous personally, so I cannot see how personal abuse is justified in any way. If you have a so-called investigation then why not include it on your own site and not use wikipedia as front for your unfounded claims. You clearly seem to be abusing the system here to vent a personal grudge, though as far as I know my husband and I have never met you, or had any contact with you. AmyNelson 9:07, 23 June 2006 (BST)

Having just checked the votes for deletion page comments I have found this from CalG - "Response: I have a strong personal dislike of Amy Nelson. My editing of pages concerning her is primarily motivated by a desire to upset Amy, and secondarily to improve Wikipedia. It seems the largely fictitious autism rights movement allows significant overlap in these aims. Assume good faith. CalG 02:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)" from this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aspies_For_Freedom This is rather sickening to read, and certainly shows that this person is using wikipedia to personally attack me, though I have no reason why. I hope that some action will be taken to prevent this. AmyNelson 9:48, 23 June 2006 (BST)

AFF 'Wiki'
I reworded this so it was less disingenuous. As far as I can tell, the AFF wiki is not user-editable. It uses MediaWiki but the comparison to Wikipedia was a stretching it CalG 18:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It used to be user editable but has since been moderated. Q0 19:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and AFF - older comments
Removedscare quotes around "Neutral Point of View" and "Original Research". A general view among the Autistic that they're victimized is not an excuse to insert your subtle POV into an otherwise decent article. Kade 03:28, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aspies For Freedom is a very easy group for members to get purged from. It has no internal democracy, it only wants members who will follow the leadership line on every issue. It is presently causing a lot of bad feeling in the aspie community online, as dozens have been hurt by AFF.Tern 21:55 22 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I am an admin and co-founder of AFF. Out of over 670 members, only 3 accounts are suspended. As I am sure wikipedia knows there will always be a small element of trolls that all sites get from time to time. The above user Tern has some kind of a grudge against AFF and also wikipedia judging by his own site. I can happily disregard his comments as being irrelevant. GarethNelson

Got you. From this precedent, all AFF fellow-travellers must now go back to the AS page and operate to the rule that all personal moral comments on anyone else's site are irrelevant to the page's editing. tern 23:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It's a moot point as he is now banned, but can anyone make heads or tails of Tern's comment here? I can't understand what he was trying to say at all.

NAAR? CAN?
What the heck are NAAR and CAN? There is no indication of what these protests were about. Include either a link or a sentence or two of information here - I'd do it myself if I had the first clue what they were. PurplePlatypus 06:18, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * NAAR and CAN are well known. In fact a NT reporter knew it and reported on it on the front page of the NY times.


 * Anyone have a cite to the story itself, please? Also, PurplePlatypus, CAN is Cure Autism Now, I believe. I don't know who NAAR are, off the top of my head. ManekiNeko 20:20, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * (I've just added indents here to make it clearer who said what. I did not say "NAAR and CAN are well known" -- that was another editor. ManekiNeko 00:08, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Keep AFF as a separate page
ManekiNeko, are you thinking of Amy Harmon's stories in the New York Times? One of them is mentioned in Wikipedia's Autism rights movement section. I don't think any of her stories were on the front page, though.


 * I think you were confused by the formatting in the above section -- I just cleared it up a bit. I don't know what the stories are; I was just hoping someone could cite a reference, because otherwise "the first autistic person to protest" etc. sounds iffy. ManekiNeko 00:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

NAAR is the National Alliance for Autism Research. I'll edit the Aspies for Freedom page to put in the full name and a link.

I am in favor of keeping AFF as a separate page, rather than combining it with Autism rights movement. AFF is an active, internationally known civil rights advocacy group that has been discussed in many news stories. As mentioned, pro-cure groups such as NAAR and CAN have their own pages on Wikipedia; it's only fair that groups with an opposing viewpoint should get equal mention.

Moreover, the Autism rights movement page currently includes a large amount of historical information and, in my opinion, should remain a more general source of information about the timeline of the movement and the main issues, rather than discussing any particular group's activities at length. (The article is quite long already.)

Bonnie Ventura, 26 August 2005 (sorry, I don't know how to make the date of the comment show up automatically)


 * Bonnie, type ~ at the end of your post and it will do that for you. ManekiNeko 00:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

AFF is a notable organization. Mention many times in the media. From the New Scientist to MSNBC.com and one of its members was interviewed for a front page NY times article about an AFF sponsored protest. Joe Mele JoeMele 00:37, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The organization gets a grand total of 172 Google hits if dupes are ignored. This is a Google count that wound just about doom any organization to deletion for non-notability. Until the organization becomes more notable in and of itself, it seems to me that merging is the best solution. Groups like CAN and NAAR have pages because they are already notable - "Cure Autism Now," for instance, gets in the vicinity of 47,000 Google hits. "National Alliance for Autism Research," 27,000. FCYTravis 13:57, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Joe Mele JoeMele 00:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That is patently false
 * Please show me how it's patently false. Run a Google search on "Aspies For Freedom," skip to the end and note how many results show up before you get the "In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 170 already displayed" message. It'll be in the vicinity of 170. Look, I wish you the best, but Wikipedia is not a place to "gain" notability - it is a place for entities that are already notable. FCYTravis 11:54, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * PLease travi, As I mentioned on other pages, we have been highlighted in the media. The New Scientist and msnab.com and I was interviewed and qouted for the NY times fornt page article about an AFF sponsored event. In the autistic world we are known. But as you know in the autism world this is strange fight from non-autistics who tell us autistics we have no right to speak on autism. Are that only certain autistics who the rith views (wink wink) can speak at conferences. Is that fight being brought over?. The notion that CAN and NAAR can have pages is like a jew that no pages on the holocaust but the nazi party can have one . This is unacceptable.JoeMele 15:52, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Also CAN and NAAR or businesses run by NON AUTISTICS. It is rare to see a group be wholly made up by aspies. JoeMele 00:44, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Travis, take another look: almost all of the hits for CAN and NAAR are dupes. When I skipped to the end of a search for "cure autism now," I got, "In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 639 already displayed." A search for "National Alliance for Autism Research" turned up only 125 hits that were not dupes, which means that AFF actually has more non-duplicate hits than NAAR.

Bonnie Ventura 17:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Some cleanup done
I tried to clean up the article a bit. I found citations for the NYTimes article and the New Scientist article and included them, etc. I think there is some POV still in the article, incidentally -- but it's 5am and I have cleaned up as much as I can for the night. Hopefully it reads a little better now. ManekiNeko 12:07, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

To add a comment to the above -- some of the things that bother me about the article still are:
 * "quickly gained support from autism experts including Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, Tony Attwood and Donna Williams" -- is there a citation for this? the "quickly gained support" sounds promotional to me. Show us that support.
 * "the first ever protest by an autistic person against a cure" -- this seems amazing to me that no one would have done this before. Again, a citation would be great! (I know it's tough to prove a negative like "no one's ever protested before"... but any citations you can manage for that fact would make this article stronger.)
 * "This was seen as a pivotal moment in the history of the autistic community" -- by whom? Is there evidence for this yet?
 * "The first year of the celebrations (2005), was enjoyed by many" -- how many participated? If anyone knows, I think it would be better to say something like "Over 10,000 people participated in the first Autistic Pride Day," etc. "Enjoyed by many" sounds POV to me...

Basically, some of the text sounds like it is from a press release, rather than an encyclopedia entry. Those parts need to sound more objective and less like a puff piece. I think if this is done you will find that people are more supportive of the article in general. I am probably being extra picky here, but it is with the intent to help make this a better article. Cheers, ManekiNeko 12:18, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with travis edits except one. The removal he mentions of AFF's wiki which is one of the most famous features of AFF.JoeMele 15:49, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, ManekiNeko. I don't think you're being too picky at all. In answer to your first question, AFF received supportive letters last year from Baron-Cohen, Attwood and Williams. The letters are archived in AFF's library. It probably would be more accurate to replace the word "support" with "supportive letters" because these individuals did not provide financial support to AFF. I'll make that edit and include the link to the relevant page on AFF.

Regarding past protests, there had been various petitions and other Web-based protests, but as far as I know, they didn't get much media attention and were not accompanied by real-life picketing or other action. Instead of "first protest," it might be better to say something along the lines of "first protest that received significant international media coverage" which it did, in the New York Times story and international stories based on that coverage. (Joe, what's your opinion as to the best wording?)

Bonnie Ventura 17:45, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Bonnie, excellent job with that "supportive letters" edit. That strikes me as much less POV.


 * I just made some further changes to clean things up. There is no need to provide lengthy descriptions of the content of the Caplan and Dvorsky articles; the articles are cited as references for people to follow, but they are not about AFF. One mentions AFF in passing and one does not -- so they are good background info, but they shouldn't be recapped in an article about AFF. So I removed that paragraph but maintained the refs in the refs section. I also pulled the bit about the aspie-wikipedia into a paragraph together with one about the chat room and other AFF services. ManekiNeko 20:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

They both mention AFF look again JoeMele 23:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Both articles mention AFF, and the Caplan one was based on AFF and Autistic Pride Day, it was the inspiration for the article, the same as with the New Scientist article. The protest by Joe Mele was first protest that was offline, real world. AmyNelson 29 August 2005.


 * OK, well, the articles are in the References. They still don't need to be recapped within the Wikipedia article -- imagine if, say, every magazine article that ever mentioned Cure Autism Now was recapped in their WP article. That wouldn't make sense either. :) For that matter, even linking to every article that mentions the group is a little iffy, but there are only a few of them that mention AFF so far, so it doesn't bother me yet. Remember, the WP article isn't a clipping service or a positive publicity engine for AFF; it is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia article. So that's basically the perspective I am taking here. And hopefully the more the article gets cleaned up, the less risk you have of it being merged. I'd love to see some more feedback from other editors not connected with AFF, though! ManekiNeko 19:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Bonnie, I reworded the bit about Joe's protest based on your suggestion. Thanks! :) ManekiNeko 20:01, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Is it ok to mention the facility of the autism wiki that is on the website? it is an important source of information. AmyNelson 30 August 2005


 * The wiki is already mentioned... Did you mean something else about it? It's mentioned and the basic distinction of it (that it is from an autistic perspective) is mentioned as well. ManekiNeko 20:43, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

On its way
I just wanted to add that this article looks a lot better than the last time I looked at it a couple weeks ago... great job guys :) Ryan Norton T 20:51, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

And the note about it not conforming to style is probably correct, however you're getting there so don't get discouraged :) Ryan Norton T 20:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Ryan, do you have any suggestions about conforming to style? I've been editing a lot on Wikipedia lately, but I'm still inexperienced enough that I might miss style issues that other editors would immediately notice. :) So any advice is welcome! ManekiNeko | Talk 21:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

That's ok, as we speak I'm rewriting it to conform... will be done in a few minutes :) Ryan Norton T 21:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Maneki - as for how to do it, its rather involved. Basically you need to make sure everything is referenced, there are no easter egg links, proper references/footnotes, etc. Ryan Norton T 21:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Merging into rights movement
I just realized this sticker... I think its a good move actually. I think it would provide a better context as to what the site is about. My personal POV though Ryan Norton T 20:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

only if you bury NAAR and CAN as part of the eugenics movement in Ameica today sure then I would agree JoeMele 17:10, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

That would be a HUGE violation of NPOV. It is uncontroversially agreed and stated by AFF itself that it is part of the autism rights movement. Your (and some others) opinion that NAAR and CAN are neo-eugenicists is an OPINION, extremely controversial, and not stated by the groups themselves. Lord Patrick 04:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

well hitler thought that it was controversial that he was a bad guy too. And Lord patrick you are WRONG. It is NOT POV! Anytime you want to elimindate genetic material from the gene pool that is EUGENICS!!! JoeMele 04:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Would that make groups working on a cure for arthritis eugenicists? EDIT: Yes, Hitler did, but 1.His article doesn't say "EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!". Although it is difficult to write NPOV on such distasteful subjects such as Hitler, Fred Phelps, and the eugenics movement, it must be done. And 2.Comparing me to a Nazi is both a personal attack and an insult to the Jews that died in the Holocaust. Am I going around putting autistics in gas chambers? Lord Patrick 05:01, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * A perhaps interesting side note is that there were probably no small number of autistics going in along with said Jews, as well as a fairly large number of other people, not all Jews. And, yes, NPOV must be maintained. This obviously entails pointing out that a number of aspies actually do view the attempt at curing them to be eugenics, clensing or whatever you wish to call it. It also entails pointing out that this view is not shared by the neurotypical mainstream. Seeing as though Mr. Mele is representing an organization of aspies, a group known to have some difficulty in clearly communicating with neurotypicals, it would seem to me to make sense to add a liberal dose of "good faith" assumptions and tolerance in reading his comments. Besides, if you just let the insults pass, it doesn't generate more non-signal/non-content traffic. Zuiram 10:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No you are not putting autistics in gas chambers just helping their mothers into stirrups after failing the prenatal test so they can have the abortion.JoeMele 20:12, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Try to cool down? I quite understand the frustration you must feel, Mr. Mele, but expressing it this way tends to be taken rather poorly. Especially when such comparisons are made without appropriately limiting their scope.
 * In principle, at least, I agree that attempting to eliminate ASD is a form of eugenics, just as gender assignment surgery for intersexuals clearly constitutes genital mutilation. A case could probably be made that these assertions are objective facts.
 * However, in this context (wikipedia), the aim is to reach a consensus, which will tend to be NT-dominant, NT-centric and frequently also anglocentric. Biasing it in the other direction will be reverted by this dominant population. Hence, careful wording and extensive citation of sources to give a well-sourced, balanced and neutral point of view is the only cause of action that will help your cause on this page, by correcting the bias without overcompensating. Zuiram 10:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup done - notes
I put some comments in there on the remaining problems. The main two are the fact that it doesn't say why AFF is campaigning against a couple of those organizations, and also that it was the first to have an IRC chat network for autistics (without references this qualifies as original research, so I removed it. You could say it as "they claim they were the first" etc.). Ryan Norton T 21:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, we were the first to make a specific autism chat network, you could try www.searchirc.com or google to prove that, I am not sure of another way to prove it, however it is a fact. There is still no other such network. We are the first and only one that exists. Joe Mele campaigned against NAAR as they are researching a cure for autism, and AFF are against a cure. AmyNelson 2:07, 3 Sep 2005 (BST)

ahem Amy that was an AFF sponsored protest!JoeMele 20:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Amy, I reworked this a couple days ago, let me know what you think. Ryan Norton T 20:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Link explaining protest
Is there any good reason why you removed that link??? RN, you are destroying the quality of this article. Now How will people will have a background on why??? I would appreciate it if you discuss first before unilaterally making changes.JoeMele 18:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Ryan Norton T 18:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

And as a side note I spent quite a bit of time cleaning this up so I'm quite offended at the accusation Ryan Norton T 18:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The link to AFF of the protest diary explaining why the protest even happened and what happened during the protestJoeMele

Its there in the notes section... Ryan Norton T 20:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

OK thanks JoeMele 20:34, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Joe --please don't throw the word "vandalism" around so easily. When you said "repaired vandalism on the link for new scientist article", what you were more likely repairing was a typo, not vandalism. RN is clearly trying to help here. Most of the non-AFF-affiliated editors who have been working on this article (myself included) are trying to improve it. Vandalism is a completely different thing from typing "New York Times" when "New Scientist" was intended... :) ManekiNeko | Talk 20:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry i assumed it was tern or tom or nathan sorry JoeMele 20:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes RN is helpful. I because of the political turmoil of this subject in current events. I have no faith in anon people. and very lil in named people. but RN does demonstrate good faith. We just have some differences in opinion. JoeMele 21:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, cool; I was just a little worried when I saw that term "vandalism". ManekiNeko | Talk 09:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Can the merge tag be removed yet?
Is it up to a good standard now and can the tag be removed? AmyNelson 00:50, 15 Sep 2005 (BST)

I'm not sure it has been discussed properly yet... I notice that the tag points to the Autistic Rights Movement page for discussion, but there is no discussion of it there at all, though it has been discussed here. (And if I got the page name wrong, forgive me, I have a migraine at the moment and I'm sort of uninclined to do much reading for detail until it goes away.) ManekiNeko | Talk 23:17, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Joe, I don't think that is really going to help the situation. Maneki, the Autistic Rights Movement article is very large already, I don't think it would help to add another article in it. As there has been no particular discussion on whether the aspies for freedom article should be moved there, it seems that no-one is particularly in favour of it. I think a link from there to this article is enough for people to read further if they wish, without enlarging that article any further. AmyNelson 17:00, 17 Sep 2005 (BST) Ignore ManekiNeko another busybody NT troll who has no business speaking any thing like autism, Only Autistics have the right to speak on autism. I wonder if he is man so i could ask him if he feels qualified to write wiki articles on women's issues? JoeMele 12:23, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Joe, you are being overly aggressive when it isn't warranted. FWIW, I am not NT. Nor am I a troll. In fact, one might say that an obsession with editing Wikipedia is a particularly Aspie trait. ;) (As a tendency to copy edit for typos, etc., is a particularly hyperlexic one... well, that would certainly explain a few things about my edit history!) I suggest you read WP:NPA because I think you are getting awfully close to a personal attack here.


 * Amy, I am actually not necessarily in favor of a merge (I have been trying to help improve the article here, after all), it's just that they haven't really discussed it pro or con over at the other article, which made me wonder if they were aware of the situation. I think this page is definitely improved; I just always want to make sure all sides of an issue have properly hashed it out. Unfortunately I have a strong leaning toward fairness and playing Devil's Advocate, so you will sometimes see me argue against things I agree with, because I believe it is necessary to do so. I am very much a believer in NPOV.


 * Anyway, I see that the badge has been on the other page talking about the potential merge for a while now; it is odd that no one has said anything at all over there. I wouldn't say it means no one is in favour, though -- could just as well mean that no one is against it enough to bother posting. :) I suppose someone could go over there and say "Hey, anyone have anything to say about this before we remove the badge?" ManekiNeko | Talk 19:36, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Maybe put up the disputed version, as I still agree 100% with FCYTravis. We are not disputing the quality of the article, we are disputing its notability. Also, Joe, your rants are getting old and are flagrant personal attacks, stop it now please. In addition, whether or not NAAR et al. need seperate pages is a completely seperate issue.

His most important point: Wikipedia is not a place to "gain" notability - it is a place for entities that are already notable.... for some reason some editors of the autism-related pages don't take this to heart very well... Ryan Norton T 22:52, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

First AFF is notable. As far as using the wiki to gain notability, I think some of the other editors who post open here are using it just for that. They are anonymous people who never accomplished anything. I am not ranting merely trying to raise your consciouness to a higher level. Many aspies are unwilling today to bow down and be good little uncle tom aspies for the NTs. I am one of them. You know they had a word for the jews who collabroated with the nazis. What should we call aspies who support and help hate groups like NAAR and CAN? who are helping them to wipe autistics off the face of the earth? It is time for that merge tag to go. JoeMele 16:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Joe, I'm sorry but I believe your comments on this page (see also today's addition to the "Merging into rights movement" section of this talk page) have gotten out of line. Please read WP:NPA. I know you mean well, but I think we might want to take this to dispute resolution. Accusing people of Naziism is not going to be productive here. ManekiNeko | Talk 23:21, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I wish to clearly state that Joe Mele is not a founder, admin or moderator of AFF. He is a member along with the other 735 members. We do not condone his use of negative language that he has used on this page and we have made this clear to him. His opinions are entirely his own. User:GarethNelson

Thanks for stabbing me in the back for using the phrase "We dont condone ..." etc JoeMele 16:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Step away from the computer and get a sense of perspective. Not condoning calling people Nazis (which, by the way, is a blatant violation of the No Personal Attacks policy, in fact it's one of the examples given) is stabbing you in the back? It seems more like your doing so while explicitly presenting yourself as a representative of AFF is stabbing them in the back, and I say this as someone with no affiliation with AFF. It's almost like you're deliberately trying to present them in a bad light. I think the above is pretty mild given some of the stuff you've said on this page, and you have no business getting pissy about it. PurplePlatypus 18:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

First of all, since you are anonymous you are can drop the i am not a troll act. You have no idea what is going on. so keep quiet. I never called anyone a nazi. if you were here to think and not to troll you would see that. When amy and gareth was about to closed AFF they asked members what to od and many members floated my name to take over. And many people agree with me.You have no business trolling. An autism cure is an autistic genocide is an AFF view. JoeMele 22:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC) Also I never said I "represented" them, tho in many cases I do act on the behalf when asked.JoeMele

Since when were all anons trolls? And since when was PurplePlatypus an anon? Anon=User ID'd by IP address.

"First of all, since you are anonymous you are can drop the i am not a troll act. You have no idea what is going on. so keep quiet."

That is without a doubt not only very "STHU, YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO COMMENT"-ish, but also a personal attack. Lord Patrick 07:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Plus, I DEFY Mister Mele to find any behaviour of mine that could, even remotely, be described as trolling. I'm going to assume - more charitably than his behaviour actually warrants - that Mister Mele doesn't actually know what the word means in this context, and uses it simply as a generic derogatory term, as many people on the 'net do. But even in that case, it's a blatant violation of NPA, of that there is no doubt.

Moreover, whatever the psychological status of anyone else here (which I would not claim any special insights into), I am almost certainly NOT NT, though this is not officially confirmed at this time. So where I'm concerned he can take his anti-NT elitism elsewhere. (Regrettable NPA violation of my own snipped.) PurplePlatypus 07:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Added paragraph back that JoeMele removed, I do not know the reason it was removed, no reason was given, but it was unneccesary, and I hope the page won't have more random removals of whole paragraphs. AmyNelson 13:33, 23 September 2005 (BST)

I do not have anti-NT elitism.I just dont take anonymous people who hid behind their IP serious thats all JoeMele 15:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Who is TheASMan???
Why not just give the actual name of the person? Giving handles when a real name is available seems unencyclopedic. Ryan Norton T 17:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi RN. its me I am just trying to reduce my exposure. RN I appreciate your work and I hope we can work together.JoeMele 17:50, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * When the protest was covered in the press it used your real name if I remember correctly. As RN said, I think it's unencyclopedic to use a handle in that situation. However, if the press had referred to you only as TheASMan that would be different. ManekiNeko | Talk 20:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, And I want to apologize to everyone here. But i do think searching for a cure is the same as genocide. sorry that is just what I think. Can I make a fresh start here and work with you guys?JoeMele 20:44, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Of course :) Ryan Norton T 22:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

thanks JoeMele 00:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

this paragraph bothers me

 * Aspies For Freedom has an ongoing aim to have members of the autistic community recognised as a minority status group. This started in November 2004 after discussion and debate with members, after which a statement was released called 'Declaration of the autism community'[5]. This detailed reasons for seeking such official recognition from the United Nations and the work continues towards achieving this.

For making it from a NPOV, shouldn't we note that its controversial.... and if so how should we do it without getting into a long dragged-out discussion on it? Ryan Norton T 06:39, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I think it's NPOV already. It just states that the minority status thing is AFF's goal -- there's no disputing that. :) I think in a larger Autistic Culture or Autistic Rights Movement article the controversies could be addressed, but here it doesn't seem necessary. JMO, of course. ManekiNeko | Talk 07:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough :). Ryan Norton T 07:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Setting things straight
1) I never called any one a nazi 2) if you support NAAR or CAN then you are supporting the same ideas that led to the holocaust. 3) I do not think my edits call for being looked at twice because i have an opinion. Everybody here has an opinion. Not calling NAAR evil as it is, is just POV as mine viewpoint. 4) amy and gareth are anit NAAR and believe they will lead to an autistic genocide as well. 5) AFF has sponsored protests against them.

1: Statements 1 and 2 contradict each other. The ideas that led to the Holocaust was Naziism. 2: You go on about people hiding behind their IP addresses, yet remove most of the discussion about your behaviour after being warned by Ryan not to under an anonymous IP. 3: It is better to simply not call NAAR good or evil. Both are NPOV violations. 4: I never said, and neither did Ryan or anybody else here, that I supported NAAR or CAN. I am pro cure (for giving parents the right to choose whats best for their children.), but don't want a cure forced upon adult autistics. 5: At statement 5: So? That doesn't make your behaviour any more acceptable. I am sorry if I appear to be rude. I'm merely a bit pissed at the continuing Nazi analogies. Lord Patrick 07:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I never did anything under anon IP. I thought by your statements that IP were NOT anon. You are the ono contradicting yourself. and I and do not contradict one another. that is extremely POV. I was somewhere else and the cookie wasnt saved so I was logged out.JoeMele 17:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

"Anon" is generally used as a synonym for "under an IP address rather than an actual login". I'm not sure where you think Lord Patrick said IPs were not anon, since he said the opposite quite explicitly at least once and hasn't contradicted that as far as I can see. So your big blankng, for example, was under an anon IP (whether intentionally or not), while nothing I've done in over a month was. (You have also specifically said "Anon IP" rather than simply "anonymous" for contributions that were clearly made under a login, not an IP, which is very puzzling).

And I certainly don't consider myself any more anonymous than you. It would be just as easy to make up the name "Joe Mele" as "PurplePlaytypus" (note: I am NOT accusing you of having done this, not that I would consider it a bad thing if you had; I'm simply pointing out a fact about the way login names work), and there's about as much information on me on Wikipedia as there is on you. Anyone who set their mind to it would be about ten minutes of research and two phone calls from finding out my real name. So I don't see much justification for your refusal to deal with what you call "anonymous" users. PurplePlatypus 20:59, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

DO you even read the articles you edit?? If you did you would see I am mentioned in it. I have bad experiences with anon people just saying anything they like.JoeMele 15:11, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Way to miss my point, in exactly the way I specifically warned you about in the above passage. PurplePlatypus 23:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that if the flame wars involving Joe continue, we should either take this to mediation or to RFC

Lord Patrick 07:22, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have not falmaed anypne expressed my POV held by many that a cure is tantamount to genocide. and that this is the same philosophy underlying nazism and eugenics. I never ever called anyone a NAZI. so please be precise when speaking JoeMele 14:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Flame Example 1: "Ignore ManekiNeko another busybody NT troll who has no business speaking any thing like autism, Only Autistics have the right to speak on autism. I wonder if he is man so i could ask him if he feels qualified to write wiki articles on women's issues? JoeMele 12:23, 17 September 2005 (UTC)"

Flame Example Two: "First AFF is notable. As far as using the wiki to gain notability, I think some of the other editors who post open here are using it just for that. They are anonymous people who never accomplished anything. I am not ranting merely trying to raise your consciouness to a higher level. Many aspies are unwilling today to bow down and be good little uncle tom aspies for the NTs. I am one of them. You know they had a word for the jews who collabroated with the nazis. What should we call aspies who support and help hate groups like NAAR and CAN? who are helping them to wipe autistics off the face of the earth? It is time for that merge tag to go. JoeMele 16:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)"

That was in reference to Ryan Norton, who is autistic, and his attempted mediation of the merge discussion. You compared aspies who don't agree with your POV and Ryan Norton to Jewish Nazi collaborators. Flame Example 3: "Thanks for stabbing me in the back for using the phrase "We dont condone ..." etc JoeMele 16:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)"

Flame Example 4: "First of all, since you are anonymous you are can drop the i am not a troll act. You have no idea what is going on. so keep quiet. I never called anyone a nazi. if you were here to think and not to troll you would see that. When amy and gareth was about to closed AFF they asked members what to od and many members floated my name to take over. And many people agree with me.You have no business trolling. An autism cure is an autistic genocide is an AFF view. JoeMele 22:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)"

Also, NPOV does not apply to talk pages. I don't give a hoot about what POV you have, I give a hoot about your behaviour. And finally, you say there is some big scary movement on Wikipedia to silence the autistic point of view, yet you whitewash all discussion about your behaviour on your talk page. EDIT: You did not call people Nazis, but definetly compared them with Nazis. Lord Patrick 02:18, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Lord Patrick and was going to refute it myself, but as you can see... :) Ryan Norton T 02:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

To Example Number Three:

First that was direct ed to gareth and amy who tell autistics they agree with me that cure is genocide. Second it is not flaming if it is true.Joe Mele

OK well there is a movement afoot here and else where to silence a particular point of view held by many aspergians. Silence=Death. There will be no cure, If there is ever a half ass prenatal test, it will be resisted by any means necessary by the majority. Most aspies that want a cure are just horny looking for a girlfriend. Joe Mele

In response to paragraph one: Yes it is flaming. Calling someone a backstabber is undeniably flaming. It is a personal attack, which you have made AGAIN, by saying "it (the backstabbing accusation) is true" In response to paragraph two: You are starting to sound disturbingly like Tern here. Lord Patrick 03:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Merge tag taken down
I thought about this a while. Maybe rather than having a page "autism rights movement" we could have something like "autism cure debate" or something where we could merge in NAAR and CAR or whatever too. As is though its an ok article now. If someone else really thinks it should be merged feel free to put the tag back up, of course. Ryan Norton T 14:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Autism cure debate is solely that, it cannot encompass the whole autism rights movement. There are many more issues involved than just the cure issue. There seems a great deisre to merge many of the autism articles together, and to pare down those that already exist, as they are too large or lack clarity. To make a simple point, this wikipedia has an article for spongebob squarepants, and articles for each single episode of the cartoon. I don't feel that it is highly noteable, of historical value, or encyclopedic matter. But what is important to some people, is not to others. I feel that autistic history, culture, rights, campaigns are very important, and having a handful of relevant pages is not asking much for the millions of autistics around the world. Viewing some of the many stubs, poor quality, and seemingly irrelevant articles on the whole of wikipedia, some that really need input, I don't understand the big focus on merging and changing all the of autism pages. Can we put this in perspective of the whole site? AmyNelson 16:22, 28 September 2005 (BST)

Well, there is no "great desire to merge autism articles together". There is, however, a desire to improve the quality of existing ones - and sometimes that is achieved by merging. Also, I haven't "pared" down anything! If I've done anything, I've lengthened the articles. "To make a simple point" - I know the spongebob squarepants articles have their own issues - it doesn't mean ours have to be also. "I don't feel that it is highly noteable, of historical value, or encyclopedic matter" - POV. "I feel that autistic history, culture, rights, campaigns are very important, and having a handful of relevant pages is not asking much for the millions of autistics around the world." - that's OK - except for something like "autism culture" it needed something like "autism pride day" merged in since it was a short article already. "Viewing some of the many stubs, poor quality, and seemingly irrelevant articles on the whole of wikipedia, some that really need input, I don't understand the big focus on merging and changing all the of autism pages" - because we are trying to IMPROVE them and get rid of the poor stubs and either turn them into articles or put them into another one where they can improve that article. Thanks! Ryan Norton T 15:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Ryan I wasn't specifically talking about you, but what I have seen on the autism and related pages recently. To say that articles have been added to is partly right, but they have been added too from merging in some cases, so in total it amounts to a reduction or purge. AmyNelson 17:10, 28 September 2005 (BST)

If they cant cure (hence purge) us they can purge our thoughts and values and silence usJoeMele 17:49, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

As you may see from the article, and recent changes, that JoeMele is no longer a member of AFF, I assume that he may wish to make more comments here, the reason he is no longer a member is partly his behaviour/comments here, that caused disruption and repurcussions on the forum part of the AFF website. AmyNelson 17:41, 3rd Oct 2005 (BST)

I see. Well I was the one that had your back. Who was the one who defended you from tom, aspieknee and the others the most? not too mention on AI. I did my best, about that nut who physically threatened to harm you and your baby. I was there with financial support when needed. I did the numerous phone calls/letter writing.I was the one that got AFF its first ADD in a book of poetry on autism. I paid for that add.I did the first AFF presence at a conference. I paid for that too and all the materials. And I was the warm body who sat there all those hours. I am the who reached out to other organizations. I tried and was still trying to put together a local group for AFF. I spent many hours looking thru the news finding relevant information to post on the forum. etc. But when It came down to it. You didnt have my back.JoeMele 00:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place to emote and evoke sympathy, it is an encyclopedia. AmyNelson 10:32, 4th Oct 2005 (BST)

Well If you answered your emails...JoeMele 14:36, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt, but Amy, when was there disruption on the AFF forums? I didn't see any, even after searching. Lord Patrick 07:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't really wish to keep discussing the topic, especially here, as I feel it detracts from the importance of the main article, and also is not relevant to wikipedia, email me if you wish Lord Patrick - amy@aspiesforfreedom.com AmyNelson 18:40, 5th Oct 2005 (BST)

Tern's site was shut down. congrats as it should have been that stuff about the family was not good. I cant say this to your face now gareth, but good luck in dealing with your situation. perhaps things will get better.JoeMele 15:48, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The AFF experience
I dont who to believe anymore. The anti-AFF'ers tom,aspieeknee,nathan ,homebakeddeb or AFF. I staunchly defended AFF. some of the anti-AFF'ers went over the line with personal info on amy and gareth's family issues, or worse threaten their public safety to calling the authorities to try to have their kids taken away. Outrageous and unexcusable. But, Since I have been for being not sociable enough or kind enough in my words. I was removed without my permission from the autism assembly. I find that their allies are removing my sites and now seeminglying no longer support me nor the views that we held. Now the radical viewpoint seems to have only been a ploy to get noticed. I feel they do want change. but in a very much a way theat observes political correctness. This approach doesnt address in a meaning way the injustices visted upon autistics in every day life. Autistic Outrage only can convey the import and the hurt and be the necessary vehicle of change. The anti-AFF'ers complained about stalking and "things" that happened since leaving AFF. i cannot vouch for that. But I do find that my infraction was slight but I am treated liked the worst of the worst. My repeated attempts to have a proverbial "sitdown" have been rebuffed. Does any of this have a place in the wiki entry as tom and others have tried?JoeMele 18:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't wish to sound rude here, but you REALLY need to drop the persecution complex. Nothing against you, I would say the same thing to anyone else. I am sorry if you are being excluded from your community, but they had a good reason. Your behaviour was belligerent and completely innapropriate. (If you're referring to your suspension from AFF, that is.)

Not to accuse you of anything, but neither I, Ryan, Naneko, Stormrider, or Purple Platypus have threatened Amy or Gareth or any other AFF members. In fact, they were in agreement with us over your behaviour. (See this page).

You, however, accused me and others of being trolls, modern day eugenicists, uncle toms, and various other things, some extremely distasteful and personal. You also resorted to outright censorship on your talk page.

Not trying to start an argument here, just stating my opinion in a calm way. Lord Patrick 08:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I know but If I knew you were a teenager before hand I would ignored you as irrelevant anyway. I do not have a persecution complex. I dont need a diagnosis from teenagers who dont know anything about life in the first place. And by reading the above you dont even know what I am talking about you miss the point.At first I thought you deliberating missed my points hence the troll word. but now I think it is probably just your age and inexperience. So please you dont understand the issues nor even what I am referencing. JoeMele 14:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I do understand what you are talking about. You are talking about perceived feelings of isolation derived from your behaviour (which you percieve as honorable, and fighting against antagonistic entities, namely me, ManekiNeko, and Ryan.) being ostracised on AFF's forums and here. And Joe, are you a psychologist? Beyond having AS, what do you think qualifys YOU to accuse me of such things? I would consider saying I know nothing about life a personal attack as well. Despite my age, I would say I am able to discuss things in a mature manner. In any case age is no guarantee of wisdom. Lord Patrick 00:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Misuse of a Hans Asperger quote
I believe this article's description of those with Asperger's Syndrome as those who "seem to be 'little professors'" is a potentially offensive misuse of Hans Asperger's description of his young patients. I do believe that a description of Asperger's would be appropriate where this description is, but I find this description to be misleading and unworthy of a Wikipedia article. I will be removing this description from this article, and am interested to see what may come in its place.--Kento 22:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The description is applicable to the population Hr. Asperger studied, and would have remained so in their adult years, bar the 'little' bit. Anecdotally, about a year after I started studying biopsychiatry on my own, the biopsychiatry-professor that was treating me for depression would defer to me on some topics (as well as having me help out with teaching his students), and I have had doctors refer patients to me, although I am not a doctor nor a psychiatrist, because they have felt that my qualifications exceeded their own. While a definite diagnosis has yet to be made, it is clear that I belong in the ASD group.
 * The capacity of many ASD people to independently absorb, organize and (in highly functioning individuals) utilize information definitely merits mention. Many groups, particularly the parents' organizations, tend to overlook or downplay the importance of this. In order to maintain NPOV, it is important to highlight the fact that there are legitimate reasons for organizations such as the AFF to exist, and this is one such reason. Zuiram 10:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)