Talk:Assassination of Ali

Infobox
Hey ! Regarding your recent edit, please see many other Assassination-of-type articles such as Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., Assassination of Olof Palme, Assassination of Benazir Bhutto, Assassination of Mahatma Gandhi, Assassination of John F. Kennedy and etc where Infobox civilian attack is used as the infobox template. Do you have anything to add? -- M h hossein   talk 19:36, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * None of those assassinations have religious significance. Infobox civilian attack seems awkward and overly-simplifying in this context, in my opinion. And the juxtaposition of an idealized hagiographic illustration with a banal list of historical facts is especially awkward. Kaldari (talk) 21:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * What's it, if Assassination of Ali is not a civilian attack? How having a religious significance can/should make a difference? -- M h hossein   talk 12:20, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Btw, as far as I know, the most available photo relevant with the article subject, is this "hagiographic" work. -- M h hossein   talk 12:27, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

"In arts" section
I wouldn't have noticed this section if it weren't for your latest edit. I believe the first source is a self-published one, unless I'm missing something. Please read the WP:IPC essay, which better explains my concerns. Didn't check the other sources yet, but they are most likely unreliable. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 08:53, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the first source is weblog updated by the painter himself. Anyway, I'll replace it with a secondary an independent source. By the way, the materials you removed is neither off-topic nor original research. --  M h hossein   talk 13:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The second paragraph is definitely off-topic. The painter himself doesn't seem notable enough to have a WP article about him. Let alone a mention on this article of not only him, but also the critical reception of one of his works. Please remove it. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. That the "painter himself doesn't seem notable" has nothing to do with whether or not we can mention his work in an article most related to it. However, none of these mean that you can't start a RFC. Regards. -- M h hossein   talk 18:48, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Assassination of Ali
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Assassination of Ali's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Iranica": From Ghulat:  From Battle of Karbala:  From Succession to Muhammad:  From Timeline of Ali's life:  From Ali:  From Ali as Caliph:  From Mourning of Muharram:  From Karbala: </li> <li>From Hasan ibn Ali: Hasan b. 'Ali b. Abi Taleb, Encyclopedia Iranica.</li> <li>From Encyclopaedia of Islam: Elton L. Daniel, "Encyclopedia of Islam" in Encyclopaedia Iranica</li> <li>From Husayn ibn Ali: </li> <li>From Siege of Uthman: </li> <li>From Ashura: </li> <li>From Shia view of Ali: </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:54, 10 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Dear As you may have seen, the article is a GA and editors would better be more cautious when editing the article, in order for the GA level to be kept. I just noticed your edit and thank you for your contribution. Anyway, could you please use a referencing style in harmony with this article? As you see, we have not used short formats such as Harvnb here. Regards. --  M h hossein   talk 07:17, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Date 26 or 27
I just noticed your edit and have altered the date in the other article, since I think the source used here in this article is reliable enough for the date (and I could not verify 27 Jan by the given source in the other article). So, I don't find them to be contradictory! -- M h hossein   talk 07:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Apparently it's not very clear at all. Look at Talk:Ali/Archive 6. 21 Ramadan as the date of death seems to be correct, but it's just a matter of converting that to the western calendar. — howcheng  {chat} 16:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Miscellaneous comments and the proposed changes
A number of comments about this article. They seem fairly uncontroversial but I'll wait a bit for feedback/objections before implementing them.

Corrections and mechanical edits

 * 1) Inconsistency in transliteration, e.g., Muawiyah vs. Muawiya.
 * 2) A separate bibliography section might be added and the inconsistencies in citations should be sorted out.
 * 3) "Shablb ibn Bujra" should be "Shabib ibn Bujra", according to the source.
 * 4) The latter part of the following is not in the source: "Ali's death is commemorated by Shia Muslims every year at the Imam Ali Mosque and by Sunni Muslims at the Hazrat Ali Mazar."

Discussed

 * 1) "Ali became the caliph" can be replaced with the more informative sentence "Ali was elected caliph."
 * 2) The paragraph in Background starting with "Ali's caliphate was coincident with First Fitna" benefits from some copy editing. Here is my proposal, where I have omitted the (standard) sources for brevity: Ali's caliphate was concurrent with the first Muslim civil war, known as the First Fitna. Though Ali was elected as the fourth Rashidun (or rightly guided) caliph after Uthman's death, he faced opposition during his rule. On the one hand, in Mecca, Aisha, Talha, and Zubayr revolted against Ali and seized control of Basra. Aisha was Muhammad's widow, while Talha and Zubayr were two of his companions. Ali marched to Basra and emerged victorious in the Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Aisha, Tahla, and Zubayr. On the other hand, Muawiya, the incumbent Umayyad governor of Syria, declared war on Ali, accusing him of inciting Muhajirun against Uthman and demanding the surrender of his murderers. In response, Ali maintained his innocence and urged Muawiya to present his case before Ali's court. After failed negotiations, the two parties fought the Battle of Siffin in 657, which ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration.
 * 3) The following can be replaced with something with fewer quotes and closer to the source: Current: According to Madelung, a small minority of people were convinced that "he was the best of Muslims after the Prophet and the only one entitled to rule them," and after Ali's death people were divided regarding their view toward him. "Distrust of, and opposition to, Mu'awiya and his Syrian cohorts" was what united the majority. Ali's admirers then turned into majority due to "highhandedness, misrule and repression" that composed the rule of the Umayyads. Proposed: According to Madelung, during his rule, Ali found a loyal following who regarded Ali as the best of Muslims after Muhammad and the only one entitled to the caliphate. Nevertheless, this following remained a small minority and what united Kufans after Ali's assassination was instead their opposition to Muawiya. Madelung adds that, over time, the oppressive rule of the Umayyads turned the minority of Ali's admirers into the majority.
 * 4) The second paragraph can be shortened to read better. Here is my proposal: "Ali was elected caliph after the assassination of Uthman in 656 but faced opposition from some factions including Muawiya I, the incumbent governor of Syria. As a result, the first Muslim civil war, known as the First Fitna, followed the assassination of Uthman, continued throughout the four-year reign of Ali and ended with the overthrow of the Rashidun caliphate and the establishment of the Umayyad dynasty by Muawiya. Notably, after Ali agreed to arbitration with Muawiya, following the Battle of Siffin in 657, a fraction of his army revolted against him. These later became known as the Kharijites or those who secede. They soon began to terrorize the civilian population and were crushed by Ali's forces in the Battle of Nahrawan in July 658."
 * 5) Both Levant and Syria are used in this wiki article to describe Muawiya's territory. The said territory is referred to as Syria by Madelung. So one can replace Levant with Syria in this wiki article for the sake of consistency and readability.
 * 6) I think proper nouns like Kharijites and Rashidun need not be italicized.
 * 7) an Excessive number of quotes, e.g., in the section Ali's prediction of his fate (save for the quote about the "evilest man").
 * 8) After providing the source, "Amr ibn al-As, governor of Egypt" in the lead can be replaced with the more accurate, e.g., "Amr ibn al-As, Muawiya's governor of Egypt".
 * 9) There are lots of places that the language can be improved, e.g., the existing sentence "Some sources have accused al-Ash'ath of being informed of the plot of the assassination of Ali" can be rewritten as "Some sources have alleged that al-Ash'ath was aware of the plot to assassinate Ali."
 * 10) "After Ali's death, the Shias of Iraq declared Ali's eldest son Hasan the successor to Ali, thus proclaiming him as their new caliph. However, Hasan was not interested in becoming caliph, and to prevent further bloodshed, he signed the Hasan–Muawiya treaty and abdicated in favor of Muawiyah, who became the first caliph of the Umayyad caliphate." can probably be replaced with a more historically accurate statement. Here is my proposal, where I have dropped the sources: After the assassination of Ali in January 661, his eldest son, Hasan, was elected caliph in Kufa. Soon after Muawiya marched on Kufa with a sizeable army, while Hasan's military response suffered defections in large numbers, in part facilitated by military commanders and tribal chiefs who had been swayed to Muawiya's side by promises and offers of money. After a failed attempt on his life, a wounded Hasan, who by now only ruled the area around Kufa, ceded the caliphate to Muawiya in 661, who founded the Umayyad caliphate.
 * 11) The following is unsourced. If a source is not found, remove: "...while remembered by nearly all Muslims every year during Muharram paying tribute to Muhammad's grandson and his family's brutal assassination."
 * 12) "other sahaba" in the following replace should be replaced with the more accurate Talha and Zubayr. "Ali, first emerged victorious at the Battle of Camel in 656, against an army primarily led by Muhammad's wife Aisha and other sahaba."
 * 13) The following sentence in the lead might be a bit confusing: "Ali, who was then 62 or 63 years of age, died due to his injuries two days after Abd al-Rahman ibn 'Amr ibn Muljam al-Muradi struck him on his head with a poison-coated sword,  on the 21 (or 19) Ramadan 40 AH (28 January 661 CE)." There is only a comma to clarify that 21 (or 19) is the day on which Ali died. This can be rewritten more clearly.


 * There are a lot of comments so plz wait so that other users may get involved. Also you have not even pinged the most involved users in this page. -- M h hossein   talk 06:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * For the time being, your claim in #1 needs a reliable source. #2 seems OK to me. As for #3, it is too short and ignores important point regarding Kharijites. Syria and Levant mentioned in #4 refer to two different area from historical viewpoint, right? Which one is used by the sources? -- M h hossein   talk 07:04, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, ! I've now pinged a few people. Re Item 3, I didn't plan on removing the information about the Kharijites and have now included the full paragraph in my proposal above (after some light edits) to avoid any confusion. Re Item 1, I've added a source although it's likely that I'm misunderstanding your comment. Albertatiran (talk) 08:38, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you mean Amr was not governor of Egypt when Ali was assassinated? -- M h hossein   talk 05:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It was added by user:Sa.vakilian. I think you may remove it if you have a reliable source saying Amr ibn As was not the Egypt's governor at the time. Also, I am OK with 5 and 6 (as for 6, I think the sentence "the evilest..." would better be left untouched.) -- M h hossein   talk 05:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, ! Please have a look at the updated Item 1. (Amr was indeed a governor at the time of assassination but he was Muawiya's governor not Ali's. This can be easily clarified as described in Item 1. I also divided the comments into two groups. Albertatiran (talk) 16:24, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, Albertatiran. I agree with the modification you provided for Amr ibn As in the lead – provided that it's accompanied by a reliable source. Now dealing with the open items; Why do you think the "Therefore, a civil war ..." is redundant? I don't see any similar items in the page making this sentence excessive. As for al-Sallabi, I suggest keeping the source, since I don't think it is unreliable. Though you may evaluate it at the WP:RSN. As for #4, you can see my original edit. The source is Madelung but I don't know how it was changed later. What's your proposal for #5 and your edits under #6 are welcomed (but be careful about the meaning of the sentences). -- M h hossein   talk 03:52, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi! Asking for your feedback about the above proposed changes. Thanks in advance. Albertatiran (talk) 08:38, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks,. Can you check the the updated list of open items? Albertatiran (talk) 20:13, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Do you like implementing the discussed items gradually? Thanks for your CE proposal in #1. To be honest, I am happy with the current wording (for plenty of reasons) but think #2 is an improvement (are you suggesting to keep "to prevent further bloodshed, he signed the Hasan–Muawiya treaty..." up to the end of the current paragraph?). As for #3, it is a combination of my edit and an edit from another user. So, it's possible they have entered something unsourced. Anyway, can we find a source for it? Thanks for your proposals. -- M h hossein   talk 06:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, ! In addition to the above list, I'm hoping to copy-edit the article. I understand that you've written parts of it and I hope you are ok with me editing the article more freely. Academic writing is my day job :) and I believe I can improve the writing and presentation in various places without changing the message. Regarding the above list, it might be easier for me to have our discussion first before making all these changes lumped together with other light edits. And we're almost done! :) About the open item 1 above, I wonder what your concerns are and if they can be addressed easily. Thanks. Albertatiran (talk) 17:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
 * ِDear Albertatiran, I am sure your efforts may improve the quality of pages but the disputes between the editors are normal which would better get resolved via reaching a consensus/compromise. As for #1 from the open list, we don't need to have the names in their complete forms. According to the 'Battle of the Camel', Aiysha was a key figure in the battle to the point the war is named after her riding on the back of a camel. It's even reported that Zubayr deserted the field but was killed by the soldiers on his side. So, let's not the change the meaning by saying "Ali first emerged victorious in the Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Tahla, Zubayr, and Aisha." Though, to be honest, I think your version is featured with "The battle ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration" and "...and declared war on him" which are more accurate. -- M h hossein   talk 15:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand. Please see revised #1 with the changes highlighted in red. Albertatiran (talk) 19:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Bravo Albertatiran. I just realized there's something lacking in the paragraph. After sating "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for the murderers of Uthman to be punished," then we need to bring Ali's response/view point. Your thoughts? As for the remaining items, I am OK with them except #4 which can be still worked on to be improved. For instance, saying "Ali built a loyal following..." makes the wrong impression that he really did something to build a group of loyal followers, which I don't think is the case. Best. -- M h hossein   talk 07:24, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Good point about #1! About #4, it might be argued that perhaps Ali did play an active role, e.g., his sermons and teachings. In any case, please see the revised texts. Thanks! Albertatiran (talk) 09:58, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * We usually don't revise the old talk comments as you tend to do, because extensive edit of the old comments makes it difficult for others to keep track of the developments. Instead, you may write new paragraphs featured with your fresh edits and keep the old one intact. Anyway, "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for the murderers of Uthman to be punished" is far way different from "accusing him in Uthman's murder and demanding the surrender of his murderers." The latter just implies Ali was directly involved in the assassination of Uthman – am I right saying it's just not supported by the reliable sources? In my previous comment, I meant to suggest adding something after "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for ...". What was Ali's reaction? As for building loyal, there should be a reliable source saying as such, otherwise it is not acceptable. Thanks. -- M h hossein   talk 18:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip. Both proposals are sourced from Madelung. #4 closely follows page 309 of Madelung. #1 is taken from pages 205 and 206 of Madelung. Here, Muawiya accused Ali of indirect involvement in Uthman's murder and demanded the surrender of the murderers. The revised proposal for #1 below now emphasizes that indirect involvement. You're also, of course, welcome to add your alternative below :)


 * Ali's caliphate was concurrent with the first Muslim civil war, known as the First Fitna. Though Ali was elected as the fourth Rashidun (or rightly guided) caliph after Uthman's death, he faced opposition during his rule. On the one hand, in Mecca, Aisha, Talha, and Zubayr revolted against Ali and seized control of Basra. Aisha was Muhammad's widow, while Talha and Zubayr were two of his companions. Ali marched to Basra and emerged victorious in the Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Aisha, Tahla, and Zubayr. On the other hand, Muawiya, the incumbent Umayyad governor of Syria, declared war on Ali, accusing him of indirect involvement in Uthman's murder and demanding the surrender of his murderers. In response, Ali maintained his innocence and urged Muawiya to present his case before Ali's court. After failed negotiations, the two parties fought the Battle of Siffin in 657, which ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration.
 * You're welcome Albertatiran. Almost everything is Ok but I would write "...accusing him of inciting Muhajerun against Uthman" or "...accusing him of being instigator of Uthman's death". As for #4, yes that is in close match with Madelung's wording. Thanks. -- M h hossein   talk 13:02, 27 December 2021 (UTC)