Talk:Assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists

Copy-editing tag
This article requires WP:Basic copyediting. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:05, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Plot Spoiler: Thank you, I made a request. Mhhossein (talk) 07:06, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It's now copy edited. Mhhossein (talk) 02:45, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

NPOV tag
This article fails basic WP:NPOV. Reads like Iranian regime propaganda, stating as fact that Israel carried out these killings. Editor manipulating and misrepresenting material. Questionable whether this user can edit neutrally in the Iran article space. Has faced issue after issue with maintaining neutrality on Iran-related articles. See the absurd struggle on this page to create NPOV version of this article: Talk:Manufactured Crisis: The Untold Story of the Iran Nuclear Scare. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:11, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Plot Spoiler: Sorry to say that, but I think your accusations are probably stemming from a biased approach (of course this is my opinion only). Btw, the problem with Talk:Manufactured Crisis: The Untold Story of the Iran Nuclear Scare were some quotes standing alone in a separate section which were heavily supported by reliable sources. As you saw, we just incorporated them into the article body. To show my WP:good faith, I'll discuss all the concerned points. Mhhossein (talk) 06:46, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
 * @Plot Spoiler please point out any NPOV violations that may have been left in the article. Do consider the fact that we at wikipedia just report what WP:RS have said about events. If 99% RS agree that Israel is the most likely nation to have carried out these attacks then we just say what the RS say. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * @Mhhossein its even more NPOV now. @Plot Spoiler please view the article now, I have added new information about Iran's role in killing its own FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 02:57, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Copy editing
Tucoxn: As you see, Baffle gab1978 has done some copy edits on the article. Please let us know if there are other points the article needs for further improvements. Mhhossein (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I noticed that. The grammar and punctuation are still irregular. For punctuation, see WP:TQ, and the section on quotation characters within MOS:QUOTEMARKS, for example. There are other verb grammar issues. That's why I posted that tag. -  t u coxn \talk 19:51, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Anyway, thanks for your notice. I'll make a new request at WP:GOCE. Mhhossein (talk) 02:37, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Jonesey95 here from the Guild of Copy Editors. I read the whole article, and I read WP:TQ and MOS:QUOTEMARKS. I did not find any copy-editing errors. Please cite specific instances that you think are in error (or "irregular", as you say above). The GOCE strives to do a satisfactory job, and I think we did so here, but articles can always be improved. You are also welcome to change the article yourself, of course. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:52, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅. I have completed a thorough copy-edit of this article. I found just a few minor problems. Another editor and I have also cleaned up the reference formatting, which is outside the scope of copy-editing, but which should make it easier to pass a nomination or review. I believe that it is ready to go. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:44, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you Jonesey95! But I saw that you partially reverted some of your own edits in another edit. Was it intentional? Mhhossein (talk) 03:07, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hey, that's a nasty bug! I definitely did not do that myself. I think I have reinstated those edits. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:32, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

FreeatlastChitchat: Your version of the lead is not in accordance with the sources and contains WP:OR: You must have explanation for your edit summary which said that my version had NPOV problem. Mhhossein (talk) 17:37, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) In this source, Michael Rubin and Mark Hibbs made no comment about MEK. Hibbs only said that Israel agents could be inside Iran, he did not say anything about MEK. Both of them believe that Israeli involvement is possible.
 * 2) Based on the existing sources only Michael Burleigh and Parsi talked about the role of Mujahedin.
 * @Mhhossein Mark Hibbs says that it's also "conceivable this could be carried out by Iranians who oppose the government even without the support of outside governments,. The article then explains that MEK are the guys who "oppose the government". The "original research" i.e connecting of dots has been done my CNN, so we can use it as CNN is RS. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 20:33, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
 * FreeatlastChitchat: Fact-a: Marks Hibbs said: "It's conceivable this could be carried out by Iranians who oppose the government." Fact-b: "MEK are the guys who "oppose the government". It's exactly original research if we conclude that Mark Hibbs sayid: "The assassinations may have been carried out by the dissident Mujahedin-e-Khalq group". Because he simply never said that! This is you who is concluding this way. There's not only one opposition current inside Iran. Anyway, we can't act based on WP:OR. In the CNN article only Parsi is arguing that MEK could have involved in the killings. Mhhossein (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Ardeshir Hosseinpour
FreeatlastChitchat: The sources say Ardeshir Hosseinpour's death was dubious and non of the them speaks of assassination for sure. Allegations are just stemming from her sister's claims which are just not proved. You know that per WP:UNDUE we can't base the article on just an allegation from an escaping sister. By the way, per WP:ONUS "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." So, please avoid further reverts until a consensus is built here. Mhhossein (talk) 07:54, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @Mhhossein According to WP:RS he may have been killed by the Iranians. His sister is eye witness to that and her testimony has been published by WP:RS. You have zero reasons to remove the section. There is no dispute on wikipedia policies. Furthermore all deaths are dubious. No source says that israelis killed the scientists, they all says "ISRAEL may have killed". Similarly this is a question of Iran may have murdered their own guy. If you remove "dubiuos" claims then out goes israel and this article is AFd'ed. And who said you cannot base this article on her testimony? We are basing half of it on the Ayatollahs ranting aren't we?the Ayatollah and his cronies rank lower on the reliability ladder than an eye witness. Also we do not form opinions, we just use what WP:RS has used. If a reliable source (I quoted almost half a dozen I think) says that Iranians may have killed him, in it goes.There is zero undue concern here. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:59, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * FreeatlastChitchat: Why did you revert? 1- Non of the sources say "Iranians may have killed him" 2- The sources says his death was dubious 3- All the sources say that the four other were assassinated (no mention of dubious death). The death of a man who is shot dead or killed via explosion of bombs is not dubious, he is surely killed. But this case is different, his death is dubious. 4- Do you know what WP:UNDUE Says? 5- As you said above "If 99% RS agree that Israel is the most likely nation to have carried out these attacks then we just say what the RS say." So don't attribute it to Ayatollahs. 6- You are exactly acting against WP:ONUS, because the material is really disputed. Mhhossein (talk) 08:16, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @Mhhossein ARE you even READING the article? I just quoted more than HALF A DOZEN sources that say they may have killed him. How in the name of all that is holy and pure can this gibberish be discussed? 1- Non of the sources say "Iranians may have killed him" Seriuosly? It is written in each and every one of the sources i cited. Go read them and then come back. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:19, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * No non of them say, they just reflect what the sister is claiming. They just attribute the claim to the sister. Mhhossein (talk) 08:21, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @Mhhossein yes so? Dude we here on wikipedia DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT talk about our own personal opinions about sources. What you think about the sister is worth nothing. What WP:RS thinks about the sister is what matters. You think she is not good, fine with me, just keep it in your head and feel good. WP:RS thinks that she is a good source, and they used her as a source. So there is nothing you can do to prevent her opinion from being a part of this article. Can you quote any policy that says that even if someone is accepted by WP:RS we can just reject them based on our own personal opinion? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:25, 13 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I think Freeatlast should follow the WP:ONUS here. In fact he should not have reverted Mhhoseein. I also agree that Freeatlast's version has severs WP:UNDUE problems (a claim based an his sister don't need such mentioning). So we have to mention her claim but not as it is now. Please don't revert until a suitable and neutral version is presented by you. Lstfllw203 (talk) 09:57, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @Lstfllw203 how is something quoted in multiple RS Undue. Please explain FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:44, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Let me clarify the point, per undue "neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." So, this is not a matter of number of sources and the key point lying within the definition is the "viewpoint"! In other words, the sister's view, i.e. theory of assassination is regarded as "minority view" here. You can compare it to the view regarding the involvement of "Mujahedin" in the killings. At least two prominent researchers said that. Of course this does not mean that we should not cover that (Hosseinpour's assassination). We have to cover it just as much as its importance. I saw that your version had made a whole paragraph of the lead and a whole subsection in the body! That's too much for that viewpoint. I suggest you and Mhhossein present your suggestion here so that other users can comment of that.Lstfllw203 (talk) 13:13, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Lstfllw203: But we are not even sure whether he was really assassinated or not. His death was dubious, this is while we are sure the other 4 were killed and just who has killed them is not clear. FreeatlastChitchat: That the sources have reflected her opinion does not mean that she had been a reliable source to them. --Mhhossein (talk) 13:38, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

just for fun reverts
@Mhhossein your "just for fun reverts" appear childish to me. Please refrain from those. For example you reverted me here and changed the text in the article to exactly what the source has said without putting it in quotation marks. This was violation of copyright and you know it. there was zero reason to revert. If you are unable to understand that "opinion" is a synonym for "speculation" then just use a thesaurus or ask an adult. Then you reverted me again changing "killed by" to "was died because of". Not only was this unnecessary, the English you used was childish and quite wrong. Again, if you write bad grammar, I'm fine with that, and I will copy edit it. But if you revert my acceptable english and insert gibberish, its kinda bad. so no more of these reverts. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:12, 13 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't know why you start every thing with revert! Specially, this revert was not in accordance with Wikipedia policies. 1- As you see, an admin (Gatoclass) is in agreement with me. He even put Iran in the last place while I put it before US (I think you'd asked me to find "someone who agrees with me before undoing this"). 2- The involvement of MEK is suggested by some analysts while Iran's is mainly based on some loose allegations of the sister. Over 99.99 percent of them say that "the sister believes Iran government..."! Mhhossein (talk) 18:36, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Jundallah (Pakistan)
I am removing the paragraph about recruiting Jundallah to kill Iranian scientists. It is not supported by either of the sources. Specifically, the article from The Atlantic states: "Though Jundallah has conducted assassinations within Iran, they haven't had the level of sophistication of the recent assassinations of Iranian scientists. Experts I contacted deemed it unlikely that these recent killings would have been outsourced to Jundallah by Israel. But, as one of these experts pointed out, that doesn't mean Mossad recruits from Jundallah, conveniently positioned inside Iran, couldn't have provided logistical support. Moreover, as Jim Lobe observes, there are other anti-regime Iranian groups that Israel could be harnessing, also under the pretense of American sponsorship." Also, the article from Foreign Policy states: "There is no denying that there is a covert, bloody, and ongoing campaign aimed at stopping Iran’s nuclear program, though no evidence has emerged connecting recent acts of sabotage and killings inside Iran to Jundallah." Please stop reverting other editors' valid contributions to this article. It demonstrates ownership of content and could eventually result in sanctions. If you want this content to remain in this article, establish concensus on this talk page. Otherwise, feel free to contribute it to a more appropriate article, such as Israel and state-sponsored terrorism or the article on Jundallah itself. -  t u coxn \talk 15:56, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Dear Tucoxn, there are differences between Facts and Opinions (did you know that?) Instead of warning you for removing my valid contribution to this article, I'd like to invite you for taking a look at "WP:ASSERT", where it says:"When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to serious dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion." Also, per WP:WikiVoice, "Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects." So, no one is asserting that "Israel did the recruit" or she did not. There's a significant viewpoint discussed by Foreign policy, The Atlantic and lobelog. The viewpoint is that "Israelis recruited Jundullah members". The opinion is not stated as fact and is attributed to two american officials. So, what ever the reality is, we have to reflect this opinion. Of course we can add another opinion that their involvement is not probable from the viewpoint of some analysts. Hey Tucoxn, this is an encyclopedia where we reflect significant viewpoints. By the way, did you notice the contradiction in the parts you cherry picked? 1- "Jundallah has conducted assassinations within Iran" and 2- "no evidence has emerged connecting recent acts of sabotage and killings inside Iran to Jundallah". Mhhossein (talk) 20:31, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * For more accurate discussion I ping a third opinion: . Mhhossein (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @Mhhossein I agree with User:Tucoxn. However consensus is not writ in stone. Can you provide any source with the statement that "jundullah may have carried out these attacks".? Or any other statement to this effect. Please quote the exact statement here, but do keep it brief. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 03:10, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The Guardian: "The series of assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists since 2010 has long been believed to be the work of the Israeli intelligence agency, the Mossad, but most of the speculation over the issue suggested that the Israelis sub-contracted the dirty work to Iranian rebel groups like the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK) or Jundullah."
 * Times of Israel: "Unsurprisingly, too, he also points out that Iranians aren’t exactly pleased with Israel over the Mossad’s alleged employment of MEK (Mujahadin-e-khelq) and Jundallah terrorists to assassinate their scientists — an allegation which he says every Iranian knows to be an undeniable fact."
 * Alaraby: "Foreign Policy magazine also reported that Mossad had recruited members of the Jundullah movement, a Sunni militant group based on Iran's southeastern border with Pakistan, to assist in attacks on Iranian scientists." Mhhossein (talk) 06:42, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

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 * 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 18:19, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Title should be plural, not singular
Shouldn't the title be "Assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists" (plural)? Singular would be appropriate, if we were talking about a concept or a conspiracy, but we're talking about multiple events, which may be linked by a conspiracy, but are not proven to be so. Your thoughts, User:Mhhossein, User:7&6=thirteen, User:Peacemaker67, User:Pahlevun, User:Clpo13, User:Monochrome Monitor, User:Gatoclass, etc.? User:HopsonRoad 13:21, 31 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I would refer to the sources instead of WP:OR. Although some of the sources have used the plural form, one can find plenty others using the singular form. Sorry for reverting your good faith move, however we need to discuss it further. Thanks.-- M h hossein   talk 15:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply and commentary, User:Mhhossein. I don't see how WP:OR applies, here. However, I certainly agree that there should be a consensus before further action is taken. For me, it's a plain language issue. If there had been one event with several targets, e.g. a bomb plot, then it would have been an "assassination of [victims]" (singular). However, it was a series of assassinations. If it were proven, which it is not, to be a plot or a program of assassinations, then I could see the case for the singular form. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 15:40, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that in the source titles, when the noun is used, it's always "assassinations", other titles use a verb form. User:HopsonRoad 15:43, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * FYI, it is a concept, an event, and a series or group of individual events. In short, the word "assassination[s]" is contextually ambiguous.  The descriptive noun that is best is the one that better fits the article content.  Reasonable editors may differ.  YMMV.  In any event, whichever one you choose, the alternative can be used as a redirect.  So in the grand scheme of Wikipedia it makes little (if any) difference.  7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 15:47, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * And Allah be praised, we don't have to worry here about WP:DYK — as this kind of esoteric dispute could be a deal breaker there — as that is a fait accomplit. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 15:51, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the civil response User:HopsonRoad. Please see the sources using the singular form in their title. Although one may find sources using the plural form. --  M h hossein   talk 16:34, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these examples, User:Mhhossein. I note that the first two are about individual assassinations and therefore appropriately use the singular "assassination" in the title; the second two (both Jewish and Iranian) posit a possible campaign of assassination, which would correctly use the singular form. However, since in Wikipedia we adhere to WP:NPOV, it would be incorrect to follow the assumption of a campaign or conspiracy of assassinations, until there was confirmation either through the perpetrator's admission or a court finding, for example. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 17:53, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Gentle editors. The singular in this article title is itself ambiguous, and readers could reasonably infer either of your constructions. Sometimes an ambiguity papers over the cracks in the wall. This is precise enough for our purposes, particularly given the existence of the redirect. I also note that the title in fact still uses the word "Scientists", which is plural. In sum, it is close enough for Horseshoes or Hand grenades. You both won. WP:Drop the stick. We have better things to argue about. Just sayin'. 7&amp;6=thirteen (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 18:10, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your observations, User:7&6=thirteen. It's not about "winning", it's about precision of language. One version implies conspiracy, the other a pattern of events, connected or not. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 18:38, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That would be your inference, not necessarily the implication of the change. We still have the redirect, so both versions coexist.  You can only be as precise as the subject matter and sources will allow.  By definition, a lot of this was covert and probably a conspiracy by parties known, unknown, proved or unproved.  Depending on whom you want to credit, including involved tribunals and intelligence services.  OTOH, You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 18:41, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I concur, User:7&6=thirteen, that it doesn't take magic glasses to infer—correctly even—what is going on. And it's fine to report accusation and denial in an article. I just feel that the article—and it's title—should not impute guilt without substantial evidence, as reported through reliable sources. Having a redirect from an "innocent" title to a "guilty" one, doesn't mitigate the circumstances when the title reads "guilty". Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 21:58, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * User:HopsonRoad: Sorry for the delay. Yes, the first two sources are on individual incidents. You know that other sources are found by search, if we're to find them. Mostly, I meant to tell you that WP:NPOV is not applicable here. I mean, sources don't have to be neutral. Anyway, 'assassination' or 'assassinations', not that big you assume! -- M h hossein   talk 13:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This horse has now expired. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 13:44, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, User:Mhhossein, for sticking with me in this conversation. It's clear that what I thought was an uncontroversial correction of English usage doesn't have support from other editors, so we'll let the matter pass. I appreciate that you stuck to the topic at hand and didn't deprecate the conversation, itself. Keep up the good work! Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 22:27, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. This how we have to cooperate here. Thanks for mentioning the points. -- M h hossein   talk 07:41, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Arab–Israeli conflict

 * User:Shrike: Does it have anything to do with Arab–Israeli conflict? -- M h hossein   talk 08:23, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Iran is part of the conflict though its not Arab.You welcome to ask any uninvolved admin or raise the issue at the AN/I--Shrike (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Shrike: Thanks for the response. I removed the template until you can show that the article is a part of Arab–Israeli conflict. -- M h hossein   talk 16:39, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

NPOV problems
The article doesn't talk about that Israel view the Iran's Nuclear program as existential threat similar to Holocaust as it seems it oppose it just because it don't like it.--Shrike (talk) 17:05, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Shrike: This is exactly covered both in the lead and the body. -- M h hossein   talk 17:27, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

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Merge from Assassination of Darioush Rezaeinejad
I merged content from Assassination of Darioush Rezaeinejad to Assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists per Articles for deletion/Darioush Rezaeinejad. I think I move most of the relevant content. I left out claims of Mossad responsibility as we discuss this at length and with much better sources further down in this article - the short segment in Rezaeinejad's article did not seem to add anything to here.Icewhiz (talk) 10:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Source verification failed
I saw this addition you made to the article. One of the sources you used is this Washington Times article, but I can't find anything in it related to US State Department official denying MEK's role in assassinations. Perhaps you can post the quote below? VR talk 14:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

"Iranian nuclear scientist killed" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iranian_nuclear_scientist_killed&redirect=no Iranian nuclear scientist killed] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Gaismagorm (talk) 20:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)