Talk:Astro City

MPH
Why precisely does MPH have to be characterized as "an African-American"? I don't see people pointing out that Black Rapier or Samaritan are white. 22:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, MPH doesn't have to be so characterized, of course. It's just that somebody did so characterize him. And it's information people might want to know, if only to avoid embarrassment from referring to him as if he wasn't African-American.


 * As to why people don't tend to point out when characters are white, they probably should. It's just that they usually don't. The reason is probably based in history and culture. In American culture (and Astro City is an American comic), "whites" are historically dominant and in the majority. America could well be in a transition away from that now, but that's the way it's been, and it creates certain assumptions in people's minds -- most notably, that any character whose race isn't obvious is probably white. In other words, white characters are the "default" ones, so if a character conforms to the default few see any reason to make note of the fact -- while if a character represents a departure from the default -- for example, by being black -- it's considered noteworthy. When such things are not considered noteworthy, we will probably have achieved maturity as a society.


 * Incidentally, what makes you think Black Rapier is white? I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere in the comic that he too is African-American. But whether he is or not, I think this illustrates my point. Departures from the default are noteworthy, so if a character's race is known not to conform to the default, it's relevant information -- whether or not it should be! BPK 05:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh my, has your comment aged poorly in 2023... "White" is the default? The andf (talk) 14:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Pointing out a thing is not the same as supporting a thing. The whole context of the comment demonstrates it is the culture that considers "White" the default--which is still the case. I didn't (and don't) consider this to be a desirable thing, and look forward to the time when it won't be. Unfortunately, I think our society has regressed since 2006, and that maturation of our culture seems farther away than ever. BPK (talk) 04:32, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Black Rapier
As I understand it, the BR is based not so much on Batman so much as Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) and other gimmick weapons heroes.--Mitsukai 19:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

---

Almost all of the "based on" attributions are wild guesses, most of them completely inaccurate. The Black Rapier, mentioned about, is not based on either Batman OR The Blue Beetle, for instance.

Few if any of the characters are intended as one-to-one analogues for anyone, but rather expressions of archetypes seen in comics, myth, pulp fiction and other tales of heroes down the ages.

Also: Goldwater Heights is not named for Barry Goldwater, but for John L. Goldwater of Archie Comics -- why would a series that references comics creators for its placenames suddenly reference a Republican politician instead?

I'm not sure why something that purports to be an encyclopedia would publish so much unsourced speculation as if it were fact.

-- kurt busiek

-

Probably because the nonsourcing speculators (guilty!) are, essentially, the publishers. Anyone can contribute to Wikipedia, and very many anyones do. Wikipedia relies on correctors such as yourself (and, assuming you are indeed Kurt Busiek, who better?) to ensure the ultimate accuracy of what appears in its articles. Overall, it seems to work fairly well.

The whole "based on" thing goes back to early versions of the article, and those of us who have added to the article have tended to repeat the formula. Better phrasing would perhaps have been "corresponds to" or "seems a cognate of" or "apparently inspired by" or "echoes." The fact is, Astro City's in-references to the comic book industry and homages to the comics of yesteryear invite such speculation. And some of the the homages are hardly wild, even if unsourced, being obvious to any reasonably informed observer. Samaritan, for instance, quite plainly honors Superman, and the First Family the Fantastic Four.

That doesn't mean any of us believe ASTRO CITY characters are direct copies, infringements of copyright, or any other sort of ripoff; the homages are often quite subtle and complex, and most, as you note, defy any attempt to seek one-to-one analogies. To take the example of the First Family, other than the Fantastic Four, elements of the Challengers of the Unknown, the Doom Patrol, the Metal Men, and certain members of the Avengers and the X-Men can all be found echoed in members of the team and the team itself. And unsourced or not, it's hardly off base to see in Julius Furst, who shares a first name and a facial appearance with DC editor Julius Schwartz, a homage to that particular personage! It could certainly be coincidence, but in a series as redolent with in-references as ASTRO CITY, one is justified in doubting it!

I seem to detect a bit of irritation in your note, perhaps understandable given that some of your fans may have misconstrued your intent as a writer and gone overboard in their enthusiasm. But this article too is a homage of sorts. While correctives are welcome, please remember that this is your readers' attempt to honor YOU, along with your collaborators. So you might not want to be too hard on us.

Cordially,

BPK.

--

Oh, I don't mean to be too hard on anyone, and I appreciate the great response ASTRO CITY's gotten over the years. I do get cranky, though, at the continued assumption that any Astro City character must somehow be some other character with the serial numbers filed off, and that the first wild guess at such things is assumed to be accurate. In some cases, the article was saying that various characters were based on characters I've never even heard of, and one swath of them was apparently notated by a fan of the Wolfman/Perez TITANS, who assumes that any robot or cyborg must be "based on" Cyborg of the Titans, even though Vic Stone isn't even the first robot-man Gar Logan was ever on a team with, much less the first in comics or literature.

In some cases, resemblances are clear -- though they're often more resemblances than direct references -- but in some, they're just baffling. Winged Victory was listed as "based on" Hawkgirl, apparently because she's female and has wings -- isn't it more likely that our character's female and has wings because she's inspired by La Victoire de Samothrace (aka The Winged Victory)? Must Noah of the Crossbreed be a weather-controller because he's based on Storm, rather than, say, having his powers rooted in the Noah legends, which did involve a big ol' storm?

But yeah, had they said "resembles" or "echoes," I'd have often been baffled but less quick to react, since it would at least be identifying speculation as speculation.

Uncle Julie, by the way, is indeed an homage to Julie Schwartz, and I left that in -- the part I took out of that one was that he was also assumed to be based on "Terrible" Turpin of the NEW GODS series. He's actually about equally inspired by Julie Schwartz and by William Frawley and William Demarest as Uncle Bub and Uncle Charlie on MY THREE SONS. The Fursts themselves are rooted in the Fonda acting dynasty, the FF, the Robinsons of LOST IN SPACE, and THE FORSYTE SAGA, though there aren't any one-to-one parallels intended. The closest is Augustus Furst, who many assume is meant to be Reed Richards, though he's actually far more drawn from the interchangeable scientists of the Lee/Kirby monster stories more -- Reed is of that type, but wasn't the main model for the much-married, monster-hunting Augustus Furst, who has no powers himself but has accreted a family around him slowly, over decades of adventuring.

Many of the other characters are a similar jumble of influences, drawn from some perceived-by-me archetype or other -- Samaritan's early influences are my childhood flying dreams, a book called CATAPULT: HARRY AND I BUILD A SIEGE WEAPON by Jim Paul, a "generic" superhero call (I think) Captain Cash from a Neal-Adams-drawn magazine ad in comics form, Robert Mayer's SUPERFOLKS, Moses and BRIGHT LIGHTS BIG CITY -- and maybe a little from a pin-up Leonard Starr did in SUPERMAN #400. With all that roiling around underneath, it's probably more understandable why I flinch when people assume he's just Superman again. [His cape, by the way, which was credited to Captain Marvel, comes simply from looking for imagery associated with his name, and an attempt to make him look _different_ from the other "flying strongmen" of comics history.]

In any case, my intent in the post above was more to explain why I'd chopped out whole sentences of the entry than to castigate people for liking the series enough to make such an extensive entry in the first place.

kdb

New character articles
A number have been optioned, I've noticed, all of them being characters of whom enough is known to make an independent article worthwhile. I actually wrote one, that of Jack-in-the-Box, some time ago, but no one seems to have bit since. So I've just created another, for Winged Victory, the one that's been optioned the longest (and also, arguably, the major character of whom we know the least). Anyway, there it is. Just in case anyone's interested in seeing/reading it.

BPK 11/29/05

I'll start doing some research, and see if I can help you out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jwhale9382 (talk • contribs) 00:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Update needed
This page has some out-of-date publication information, but I don't know enough to update it. Help would be appreciated. Zorblek (talk) 00:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been meaning to build an Honor Guard page for a while now, once I get a few other pages out of the way i'll do it and update what I can here. -- Basique 00:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I updated some info on the movie (basically its cancellation). I'll leave the update note for others to update the publication information. --HitokiriGaijin 00:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If someone had the time, a brief article recapping the major arcs of the series (Confession, Tarnished Angel, and the Dark Ages) might be a good idea (at least in bullet-point format). Herocopia might also be a resource for additional information.  And if Kurt swings by here again, maybe he would be willing to contribute or perhaps point us in some sort of direction. --Rminer25 02:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Read List
A read list would be nice. The one I have just lists all books, not what order they came out in or where the 1/2 issue goes. Here's what I have so far: Kurt Busiek’s Astro City #1-6, Kurt Busiek’s Astro City Vol. 2 #1-22 (plus a #1/2), Astro City: Local Heroes #1-5, Astro City/Arrowsmith: The Flip Book #1, Astro City Special: Supersonic #1, Astro City: The Dark Age: Book One #1-4, Astro City: The Dark Age: Book Two #1-4, Astro City Special: Samaritan #1, Astro City: Beautie #1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.241.157 (talk) 21:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed
The artilce is going to have to stat getting references. Off the top of my head, any and all descriptions of the heroes (including the comparisons to mainstream heroes form DC and Marvel) absolutely require referencing to reliable secondary sources. Doing so avoids the appearance of a fanboy engaging in original research. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

This needs a summary
The article as it stands now is confusing. It has detailed lists of heroes and villans, but not a summary of what this series is about. If you're unfamiliar with Astro City, you are just told this is a about superhoeroes. Contrast with the plot/summary section of The Boys (comics), which leaves no doubt about what that series is about. The andf (talk) 14:17, 9 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I've made an attempt. AJD (talk) 08:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)