Talk:Astronomica (Manilius)

Epic
This poem is not an epic. It is a didactic poem, like De Rerum Natura, which is correctly so described by Wikipedia. I suggest that all the references to it as an epic should be altered. Seadowns (talk) 16:26, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I still don't see the point of describing this as an epic, when it most certainly is not one. It is a didactic poem, like De Rerum Natura, to which it is a feeble response (impar congressus Achilli, as Goold says), and which is correctly so described in the Wikipedia article. Nor is the Metamorphoses an epic: it is, one could say, of a form sui generis, and therefore difficult to classify. To call this an epic is a vulgar journalistic error, which ought not to appear in an encyclopedia. The next error would be to call Virgil's Georgics an epic: if the Astronomica is an epic, why not they? I suggest that Aristotle's discussion of epic is worth consulting. Manilius himself at the beginning of Book 2 distinguished his work from epics such as Homer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seadowns (talk • contribs) 14:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Comments moved from the GA page. Could you look into this? Josh Milburn (talk) 14:35, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * One can argue that this is not an epic with good reason, but the fact remains that many, many, many other sources call it such. For instance, Alison Keith (a Classics professor at the University of Toronto) includes parts of Astronomica in her book A Latin Epic Reader: Selections from Ten Epics, writing "Manilius is the earliest exponent of imperial epic with his Astronomica". However, you are correct that others, such as Volk, contend that it should be seen as a didactic poem. As such, to write that "call[ing] this an epic is a vulgar journalistic error, which ought not to appear in an encyclopedia" is to act as if the decision is settled, when it obviously is not. Wikipedia is not in the business of original research, so your assertion that I consult Aristotle's discussion of epic is not useful. With that being said, I'll re-write this article to reflect that there is some conflict as to what to label this, and add some footnotes/endnotes. A reason I reverted your edits its because you were not providing sources for your assertions, and this is the lifeblood of Wikipedia.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   17:32, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * It now reads as thus.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   17:58, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I would need to look at the context of Keith's remark, since the Aeneid is usually considered an imperial epic, and the author, Virgil, died in 19 BC, so it was some 30 years earlier than the Astronomica. I wonder if by some printer's or other error she put Manilius and Astronomica when she meant to put Virgil and Aeneid. My suggestion about Aristotle was just to help you personally, since it must be difficult for you to consider whether something is an epic or not, not knowing what an epic is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seadowns (talk • contribs) 21:38, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * There's really no need to be so patronising. If you're incapable of disagreeing with someone without throwing around ad hominem claims, perhaps a collaborative project isn't for you. Josh Milburn (talk) 02:50, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's a preview of the book, if you'd like to look at it. Anyway, I second what J Milburn has to say; don't be so rude and patronizing. I've conceded my point based on evidence brought to my attention, but your assertion that "it must be difficult for [me] to consider whether something is an epic or not, not knowing what an epic is" is just rude, uncalled for, and assumes that you have a monopoly of Classical knowledge. Now, from your knowledge and edit history, it does indeed sound like you know what you're talking about, but as my point about Keith shows, there is a disagreement about classification (further evidence: this this book published by the Harvard Press refers to the poem as an "epic", and King's College London lecturer Victoria Moul notes that "there is very little acknowledgement in either ancient of early modern criticism of didactic as a genre of its own, rather than a form of epic, and a marked division in current classical scholarship between those who endorse and those who reject the broader term 'didactic epic'." here.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   14:16, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

This is somewhat unrelated, but do you have a source for this? I think it would make for an excellent addition, but it needs to have a source before it is added in.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   18:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't get a response, so I thought I'd try again: do you have a source for [https://en.wikipedia.org

I regret that I have not looked at this page for quite some time, so have missed the preceding remarks. I much regret also that words that I meant as a genial piece of banter, and would have taken as such if they had beeen directed at me, have given offence. I must be more careful in future. Meanwhile, I apologise. Seadowns (talk) 13:09, 29 June 2017 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Astronomica_(Manilius)&action=edit&section=1#

As to the epic question, clearly there are two meanings to "epic". The first is, very roughly, a long narrative poem, usually heroic. The second seems to be any very long poem. There is no doubt that the Astronomica is a long poem, so in this sense it can be called an epic without any question. But this is an unacademic and uninformative sense. As to the first, Aristotelian, sense, the Astronomica lacks all the necessary features. It is not a narrative and has no hero or heroics. As I said before, Manilius goes out of his way to claim that he is doing something quite different from Homer, and indeed any other poet.

As to Housman's remark on the Andromeda episode, it is a note to the relevant place in Book V. It actually reads "purpureus vix bene adsutus pannus", since his notes are in Latin. I don't know quite what counts as a "source" in Wikipedia, but I doubt if there is any published work where you will find it quoted, if it is not enough to have the actual words in front of one. At present I have access to Creech, but not to any other Manilian book, and I can't go round libraries, so I can't give the line number. (It would be prudent to verify what Housman said, since I have to rely on memory.) Seadowns (talk) 10:58, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It's all good, I appreciate the apology, and I too apologize if I came across as hard-headed—I was just trying to do as the sources told! I'm assuming the Housman volume you're talking about is this one, so I'll look through it and try to find the comment. Thanks for the heads up and the starting point from which to look.--13:48, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I found it: page 70, "purpurae non sane splendidissimae adsutus pannus."-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   14:11, 29 June 2017 (UT

In that case perhaps the translation, if one is needed, should be something like "a sewn-on patch of far from the best purple", rather than what I have given. Seadowns (talk) 15:29, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Nice wording. I have added it.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   18:53, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I notice that someone has given an alternative translation of Housman's note, but I think that Housman was translating the common derogatory expression "purple patch". It is the bit that is sewn on that is purple, not the cloth it is sewn to. (Johnson warned against purple patches when he advised that one should reread one's writing and strike out anything that seemed particularly fine.) I would therefore suggest that it should revert to a translation that brings out this intention of AEH's. Seadowns (talk) 11:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I have retranslated Housman's words about the Andromeda. It is just impossible that purpurae is to be taken as dative. The pannus is the Andromeda story, which Housman goes on to compare unfavourably with Ovid's treatment of the legend. Purpurae is a genitive of quality: the purple patch is not even very good purple. Seadowns (talk) 22:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The re-translation was taken from Wolfgang Hübner's Brill article on the Astronomica: "The abundance of articles on the Andromeda epyllium is symptomatic of this: its expressly astrological meaning has been so misjudged by scholars that it has even been said that the story has nothing to do with the sky at all – here following Housman’s famous verdict, with Hor. Ars P. 15 f., of a purpurae non sane splendidissimae adsutus pannus (“rag sewn to a not particularly splendid purple cloth”; 1930, p. 70 on Manil. 5,540–618)." I included it, as per WP:NOENG, "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians".-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   00:26, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, if Hübner is correct, I think "purpurae splendidissimae" must be in the dative case because "adsutus" is a compounded verbal form.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   00:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * If it is Wiki policy that translations from published sources take precedence I must give way. But.....yes, yes, purpurae could, syntactically, be dative, but this is one of those places where Latin makes you use your nous to find the right meaning. Housman is calling the episode a purple patch sewn on, not a rag sewn on to a purple cloth. This is obvious, and is also made clear by the Horace: the purple thing is the patch, which should shine -splendeat-, echoed by Housman's non splendidissimae. To make the patch purple purpurae has to be genitive.


 * To see people, including academics, getting things wrong one can look up Horace's "diva potens Cypri", or Virgil's "fallax herba veneni", where Lewis and Short are wrong, among others. Or Housman passim. I mean for the endless examples he fishes up, not his own work, of course! 14:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)Seadowns (talk)


 * Honestly, I liked your original version better. The more I look at it the weirder Hübner's translation seems. I actually think your points are better, and since published translations are preferred rather than required, I have reverted to what you originally provided.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   15:55, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the happy ending. I wonder what the rest of Hubner is like, but am content to go on wondering. If he can't translate this, what else can't he translate? Perhaps he should have chosen an easier author, or taken up a simple manual job.( Can't get the umlaut.) Seadowns (talk) 19:48, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

A W Verrall was less indulgent than Housman, calling it "a poor mixture of childish rhetoric and utter commonplace" (p. 630 in J E Sandys's "A Companion to Latin Studies", Cambridge UP 1910). Seadowns (talk) 11:07, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Verrall's remark, in the 1910 work at least, was only directed at the Andromeda episode in Book V, not at the Astronomica as a whole. I am sorry if my entry was unclear on this point.I see it is inserted in the article as applied to the whole poem, with a different source reference. The reference I gave can be found on the net, via the JE Sandys entry. Seadowns (talk) 11:10, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I made a hasty edit based on your suggestion; sorry about that, and thanks for the catch! How does this modification look?-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   17:04, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

"The one Latin poet who excelled even Ovid"
Under "Style", would it not be worth mentioning Housman's remark that he was "the one Latin poet who excelled even Ovid in verbal point and smartness"? (Edition of Book I, 1903, p.xxi). Seadowns (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Moved from Talk:Astronomica (Manilius)/GA1. Josh Milburn (talk) 15:54, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. How does this addition look?-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   20:09, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * has left a second comment at Talk:Astronomica (Manilius)/GA1. Josh Milburn (talk) 23:11, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Style: I see my suggestion about Housman's tribute to M's wit has been accepted. I also think that his description of him as "facile and frivolous" could profitably go in. It could follow straight on after the comment on wit. Reference is Housman 1916 p.xix. Seadowns (talk) 23:07, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Later: I would still urge that this notable judgment of Housman's should be included. It would counteract what seems to me an impression given by the article that Manilius is more important than he actually is, or would be thought by many. There is also a tendency among the scholars quoted to do what Perry Mason used to call "taking a button and sewing a vest on it". Seadowns (talk) 22:51, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I lost track of things and forgot to implement your idea. Do you have a suggestion as to where it would best go? I agree that the article shouldn't pretend that Manilius was anything greater than he actually was.-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   02:15, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that after the extract from the Loeb blurb, presumably written by Goold, it should read on "Housman, however, called him 'facile and frivolous', but also described him as 'the one Latin poet'... etc." Seadowns (talk) 15:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * How about this?-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)  17:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, good. (Housman was ready to criticise M for writing about astronomy and astrology without knowing either, but could also defend him when doing so allowed him to pour scorn on earlier scholars.) Seadowns (talk) 10:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Another comment. Josh Milburn (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2017 (UTC)


 * It might be worth mentioning that Scaliger and Bentley praised his handling of numbers in verse (Housman 1920 p.51) Seadowns (talk) 10:41, 10 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Do you think that would go best in style? (Along with the Harvard UP blurbl?)-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   13:16, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, probably. I wanted to get away from the impression that this is only a comparatively modern appraisal.Seadowns (talk) 11:47, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * How does this edit look?-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)   15:56, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, it gets it in. Thanks. Seadowns (talk) 17:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

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Decans
I seem to remember that there was also another sense of "decans", but I am unable to verify it at present, since I cannot get at my copy of Goold, which I would need to find the place. It is a long time since I read through Housman, whom I can only get on line at present, with too much labour.--Seadowns (talk) 15:52, 4 November 2020 (UTC)