Talk:Astroworld Festival crowd crush

Article size
The article currently has about 11,500 words. Above 10,000 words, it is considered beneficial to condense or split the article. IMO, there is too much minutiae and excessive detail, much more than the reader needs to know. The article would benefit from heavy pruning, and stopping the daily addition of further detail. WWGB (talk) 04:43, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree, we need to think what the article should have a few months from now and keep it concise. Pikavoom (talk) 07:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Just from observing several mass cuts to current events as they've unfolded on Wiki, what the reader does or doesn't "need to know" tends to be wildly subjective based on the editor that happens to be working on that page with opaque rules that aren't often followed and/or are rarely applied consistently. As far as this article's concerned, as an example, the sponsors Travis has lost I don't personally think matter much but I know plenty of readers would appreciate knowing it, hence my time spent on it. I'd take the time to do sub articles on the entire Preparations, Reactions, Investigation, and Lawsuits sections to get the word count back to where it needs to be if I didn't think that'd be rejected in favor of just reducing what's here on this article alone. What stays and what goes? Do we wait for the autopsies for further developments? Or just wait for another editor to take into their own hands what stays and what goes only to watch editing wars ensue for months at the worst possible time right when traffic surges back here upon autopsy results or charges, if any, are announced? Onan808 (talk) 19:31, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The article will not benefit from a number of split-off articles. The only standalone article I can envisage is Reactions to Astroworld Festival crowd crush which would remove an entire Reactions section from the base article.
 * Personally, I find that there is too much verbosity and trivial detail in the article, which bloats it. For example, the sentence "Executives from ASM Global, a company merger in October 2019 between venue management group SMG and entertainment presenter AEG, used by HCSCC to run booking and day-to-day facility operations, voiced concerns for weeks about the ratio of guests to staff" could be trimmed as follows without loss of important content or context: "Executives from ASM Global, the company that ran booking and facility operations, voiced concerns about the ratio of guests to staff." If enough cuts of this type are made, the article will soon be down to a reasonable size. WWGB (talk) 06:17, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is far too long and includes way too much verbosity and unecesssary detail. I have removed the section for "previous incidents", see my edit comment for more detail, but I am going to be going through the article and editing sentences to make them less verbose and more succint. Whoever wrote the bulk of this article wrote it like they were trying to hit an essay word count. Cliffordben1994 (talk) 11:03, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I suggest maybe putting the reactions in a separate article.Cwater1 (talk) 20:06, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Should we also do that for the lawsuits and the investigations parts? It would make this entire article be so much neater and easier to read, along with shaving off all the unnesscary details. Villaida (talk) 15:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd support this. I'm in the process of copyediting the article for WP:GOCE so I'm happy to help out generally cut down the summary of events massively - It's probably best to take just the key parts for a much smaller, condensed summary. Taking out all the reactions and also perhaps the aftermath would make this a lot easier to navigate, but I feel at least a little is useful for the reader to have context. EphemeralPerpetuals (they/them) (talk) 15:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. Context is important. It’s just hard to know how much to include. Villaida (talk) 20:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@750h+ I believe this is the topic to discuss this under regarding your removal of the template for when an article is too long to navigate or read comfortably. I want to avoid conflict, so I've decided to move the discussion here. As per the older comments regarding the discussion, it is generally agreed upon that the article is indeed too long to navigate. Discussions over how long it should be or what should stay are still disputed, but that's relatively irrelevant. I think that, with these other comments, there should be enough evidence to show that it is agreed upon that the article is too long, and that's why I believe that the template for such should stay. You may discuss further if you like, but I believe that the template should stay so that interest to make revisions for simplifying or dividing the article or trimming may be extant. SonOfYoutubers (talk) 01:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Oh okay. I didn't know there was a talk page, let's wait for results 750h+ (talk) 01:43, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Security Camera Network
wondering why there was no mention of the installed temporary security camera Network that existed for this event.. I know the provider is a subject of the ongoing litigation as well.. the cameras certainly would have provided overviews of everything described in the lengthy narrative of events. There were camera operators in the forward Command Post during the incident. Toastt21 (talk) 19:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Removed text
CC-BY-SA declaration; text in this section was removed / copied from the article by me. See the article's history for full attribution. I've removed it because it's either off-topic for this article, repetitive or some other reason. I've left it here in case its removal breaks any named references, and for the benefit of future editors.

Previous incidents
This is mostly off-topic here; crush incidents have happened before and will happen again... we don't need to reference Titanic when writing about MS Achille Lauro. I may reinstate some of it if needs be. Arguably the Travis Scott material belongs at his own article. Removed from here (diff).  Baffle☿gab  06:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Contractors
Three former ScoreMore employees (employed before the incident took place) told Rolling Stone on November 13 about what they described as a disorganized, cost-cutting, and unprofessional work environment, and were surprised that it took them "this long to fuck up this badly." One detailed an assault by the assistant to the president and the pocketing of box office cash. Another described cost-cutting regarding the height of perimeter fencing and recounted past events where workers held up fencing to avoid it being toppled over by the crowd. The third detailed mid-concert purchases of bottled water as attendees were passing out from dehydration.

NRG Park
Approximately two weeks earlier at NRG Park, similar circumstances occurred at American rapper Playboi Carti's concert on October 23, resulting in cancellation of the show. Pictures and videos shared on social media showed split metal detectors, rushing checkpoints, fans on top of cars, and at least one witness statement to the press indicating an ambulance was called for someone who had been trampled, but as of November 11, no details regarding that allegation had been released.

Travis Scott
In Scott's previous performances, a number of legal issues, including his incitement of incidents and praising fans for their participation, were raised. Scott was quoted in several outlets at the time as wanting to bring his childhood fantasy of becoming a professional wrestler to his concerts. A Complex review of a 2015 concert entitled, "I Tried Not to Die at Travi$ Scott and Young Thug's Show Last Night" called it "the most dangerous safe haven" and "a turnt-up fight for survival."

At Lollapalooza in 2015, Scott was charged with disorderly conduct after inciting concertgoers to ignore security and rush the stage. In 2017, he was arrested for similar conduct after a performance at the Walmart Arkansas Music Pavilion, Arkansas. He was again charged with disorderly conduct and received additional charges for inciting a riot and endangering a minor. All charges were later dismissed, with the exception of disorderly conduct, which Scott would plead guilty to. That same year, a fan sued Scott and organizers of a concert at Terminal 5 in New York City after falling from the third level balcony and being dragged on stage, leaving the fan paralyzed from injuries sustained in the fall. The lawsuit blamed the fall on a crowd surge. At the same concert, Scott was recorded encouraging other fans to jump off balconies, claiming that the crowd beneath them would catch them. In 2019, three people were injured as a crowd rushed to enter the compound at Astroworld. In late 2020, music executive Irving Azoff said that, while he would remain an advisor to Live Nation for Scott's tours, he had dropped him as a client, describing Scott as "unmanageable."

On November 8, 2021, TMZ reported a promotional video for Astroworld which played up the apparent danger of attending the festival, with spliced news clips hyping the prior years' chaos, had been removed from their social media accounts except for Instagram. Photos on Scott's personal Instagram with his comments glorifying and glamorizing fans who had broken their hands or passed out had still not been taken down. The outlet editorialized in both cases that Scott's "rager" persona and the Astroworld brand that supported it had caught up with them. Cheers,  Baffle☿gab  06:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Build-up
(I've removed this from that section because it doesn't seem relevant there; this is probably best-suited to another section and I may resotore it later.  Baffle☿gab  07:46, 15 January 2024 (UTC)) Having never received any promised planning calls from ParaDocs' EMS Director or radios in their network, Union President Lancton said HFD, EMS, and PD were forced to respond on their own after hearing cross-traffic or from colleagues on their own radios of patrons needing help, being misdirected by security from gate-to-gate upon arrival. Disputing some claims, CEO Alex Pollak said ParaDocs did not provide radios for events they contracted with, directing responsibility for that communication problem to concert production staff. In addition, he insisted no CPR patients had to wait for care and they were prepared with enough supplies and the properly allotted 70 workers for an anticipated crowd size of 70,000. Pollak also clarified that he was passing along information consistently from the medical tent where he was stationed to their dispatch in the command center and his organization had enough radios for his own dispatchers provided by the organizers, but their primary difficulty was going into crowds to reach victims in time, as many attendees punched, kicked, harassed or blocked their dispatchers, many treating their efforts as a joke. Cheers,  Baffle☿gab  07:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

From "Reactions" --> "Travis Scott sponsors and partnerships"
(I've removed this text because it's off-topic for this article; it belongs in Travis Scott, not here.} Despite the initial wave of cancellations and postponements of live performances and sponsorships, Travis Scott quickly re-emerged the following year in June with a performance at the 2022 Billboard Music Awards, thanks to a self-described "demand" of the organization from its host and executive producer P. Diddy, who went on in a statement to blame cancel culture for Scott's initial backlash. Soon after, "not even a full year after Astroworld", 'Day N Vegas', the Las Vegas festival produced by Goldenvoice behind the Coachella festival that had originally withdrawn their concert slot to Travis, announced he would be headlining the last day of their 2022 festival iteration (although the festival would later be cancelled for reasons unrelated to Scott ), following announcements from Primavera Sound in Brazil and Argentina that he would be headlining their festivals as well that November, including a concert in São Paulo just one day after the event's first anniversary. In addition, as of late May 2022, it was confirmed that Scott's new projects and releases with Nike and Dior would be moving forward. Cheers,  Baffle☿gab  05:12, 18 January 2024 (UTC)