Talk:Ataúlfo Argenta

Article not in compliance with Wikipedia core policy Verifiability
Article not in compliance of Wikipedia core policy Verifiability as there are not reliable sources or citations. --Xminsk (talk) 22:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It is definitely not in compliance. It is full of original research and the repetition of rumours verging on slander. It has been the subject of persistent attempts by the single purpose account Tilleadh to revert the removal of the unsourced, unverifiable, and potentially biased information. Sources for some but definitely not all of the material in this article can be found at: I have tagged the article as needing expert attention, lacking verifiable sources, and as containing original research. User:Tilleadh, please do not remove these tags until these problems has been addressed. I am also bringing this article to the attention of the following Wikipedia Projects: Spain, Biography. Voceditenore (talk) 11:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Diana Diaz «Ataúlfo Argenta fue una de nuestras estrellas musicales del siglo XX», La Nueva España, January 21, 2008
 * Biography and Timeline on the official web site of Ataúlfo Argenta
 * Time Magazine, Mar. 15, 1954

For sources and information please look through www.ataulfoargenta.com, although it seems unfinished, is the first time a web page is fully dedicated to Ataulfo Argenta, and it seems to be endorsed by his descendants as the writer of the short biografy is his son Fernando Argenta []. It will even have an english version of the full biografy. --Xminsk (talk) 11:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Restructuring and referencing issues
To comply with the Wikipedia manual of style and for ease of reading and editing, I have divided this article in sections. I have also rewritten the lead paragraph for neutral point of view and more appropriate encyclopedic style. However the remainder of the article still has serious problems. 195.216.15.94 has added more 'references'. However these are entirely inadequate. Vague reference to microfilms cannot support the myriad of unverified claims and sheer conjecture in this article. What is required are the exact newspaper article, author, and date of publication. For books, the exact page number(s) are required as well.

Tilleadh, if you and 195.216.15.94 are the same person, you clearly have done a lot of research. The material is interesting to read, but in its present form, it simply is not appropriate for Wikipedia and violates several of its core principles, particularly with its unverified claims about the subject's private life, his relationship with colleagues, and his involvement with the Falangist Party. These assertions must have adequate citations or they will be removed. Please read very carefully the relevant Wikipedia guidlines, the links to which have been provided on your Talk page. And please do not revert any changes which are made to this article without discussing them first on this talk page. Thank you, Voceditenore (talk) 19:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Personal life, rumors, and inapropiate statements
In my modest opinion, this article is full of inappropriate statements about the private life of Ataulfo Argenta. All based on rumors, and personal conclusions of Tilleadh. Therefore I ask all this unverified claims to be removed if they are not backed up by citations or references. Even the author of these claims, admits that is just his opinion as stated for example on the following paragraph:

''Although it was not widely publicly known it is likely Argenta had begun a series of affairs, long and short, that were to continue probably until his death. He returned to Madrid regularly but spent much of his time abroad, mostly in Paris, Vienna and increasingly in Switzerland.''

I ask the Wikipedia community to give feedback on my intention to remove the following unverified statements and statements that has nothing to do with the purpose of this article:

''He is thought to have toured with the zarzuela composer, Torroba, and the well-known tenor, Miguel Fleta, both of whom were of right-wing sympathy. Fleta was known to be a member of the Falange, Spain’s Fascist party.''

''It was with a small orchestra of Sindicato members that Argenta found himself playing in Galicia, when the events began that were to lead on 17th July to the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War. In Nationalist Galicia Argenta was in no danger. Others in Republican areas, including Madrid, were not so fortunate. Fleta, for example, fled his home for safety in Salamanca where Franco headquarters were then to be found.''

''He was able to use his influence with the German government, Hitler’s Nazi government, for Argenta to receive a three-month stipend to study with Wolf in Germany. As arrangements were made, Argenta remained in Madrid until Wolf once more returned. He left again on 25th April, 1941 to return to Potsdam. With him went Argenta but alone. His family remained behind.''

''The remainder of 1952 was spent conducting the National Orchestra, interrupted only by a short tour to Portugal and three concerts in Scotland. It ended with more zarzuela recording, perhaps a visit to Paris to perform the Aranjuez and the dismissal of Sorozabal as the director of the MPO for daring to want to give the Spanish premiere of Shostakovich’s Leningrad Symphony. Shostakovich, as a Soviet composer, was considered by the Franco’s right-wing government, as politically unacceptable. Sorozabal would not back-down. He suffered what were in those days the inevitable consequences. Argenta was out of the country and appears to have said and done nothing.''

''1953 was probably the year of greatest success for Argenta; at least in Spain. It also saw increasing confusion in his personal and private life.''

He was also made a member of the Academia de Bellas Artes de San Fernando, of which Franco was the honourary president.

''At the beginning of September 1957 Argenta returned to Besancon with Consuelo Rubio, from where he probably went on to Switzerland. It seemed as if the previous itinerary was to be repeated but instead he returned to Spain, to Segovia for a celebration on 13th October of his 20th wedding anniversary. There may have been acceptance, reconciliation or both. It may have been because Juana was unwell. It seemed, however, marital problems and affairs might have been behind him.''

''He was said to have turned the heat on in his study and then returned to his car and switched on the engine and heater with the garage doors down. The problem with this version is that the Press at the time does not mention gas poisoning at all and in fact reported his body being found the following morning because the garage door was seen to be open by a passing workman. It is also said that another person, described variously as a student and a young, French pianist, in the car with him survived. Yet there was no indication in the Press of this version and no pianist or student is now traceable. There are other difficulties with his death, the causes of which were the coughing up of blood and heart failure, which would be associated with tuberculosis but not necessarily carbon monoxide poisoning. There are many rumours, not least that he had enemies and was murdered for political and artistic reasons, and that he was known to have had affairs with women “of his acquaintance” and actually died in bed with a lover, whilst his wife was out of the country, his body being moved to the car and the story of gas poisoning concocted to avoid a scandal. All these versions, combined with being tubercular throughout his life, mostly before effective anti-biotic treatments, plus suicide, are perfectly possible, with accidental gas poisoning being probably the least likely.''

''His death, which has all the hallmarks of a cover-up, came just as he was likely, at the age of 44, to achieve major international success. It is said he had been chosen to succeed Ansermet at the head of the OSR and was about to leave Spain.'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xminsk (talk • contribs) 10:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Full support You have my full support for this, Xminsk. I left notices on User talk:Tilleadh about the problems with the Biography section well over a week ago, and no effort has been made to provide proper referencing. The biography will remain in the article's history and if Tilleadh and/or 195.216.15.94 can provide proper referencing as per the "Restructuring and referencing issues" section above, it can always be restored. Until then it has no place in this article. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 12:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Major editing work
I do not claim any real expertise on Argenta, but I have edited out about 65% of the previous version, based on the following justifications: The article can still well use attention from a Spanish music expert, but at least IMHO, it reads a lot better and smoother now. For comparison's sake, the Spanish wikipedia isn't even 4100 bytes, so that this article is still 4x longer than the Spanish one. DJRafe (talk) 06:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (1) Much of the text was a "laundry list" of concerts and recordings. It is not necessary to dwell on every single concert that Argenta conducted.
 * (2) Most, if not all, of the "weasel words" text prefaced with phrases like "perhaps", "it might have been", "it seems", "he may have first met", etc., are gone, for the reasons noted in earlier comments, that if it cannot be definitely stated, it does not belong on wikipedia.
 * (3) The hagiographic text (e.g. "spectacular series") is gone, or at least I hope it is.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081120062012/http://ocne.mcu.es/descargas/OCNE_3CICLOIII.pdf to http://ocne.mcu.es/descargas/OCNE_3CICLOIII.pdf

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