Talk:Atari VCS (2021 console)

Atari VCS redirect pointed back to Atari 2600
Please discuss this redirect at the Atari 2600 talk page. Ubcule (talk) 13:15, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Does a piece of vapourware really need its own WikiPage? I've seen pages removed for far less. It should be removed or the redirect to 2600 left intact if/until it's a viable product. 2A02:810D:22C0:484:D047:8B0F:E4D8:AA6D (talk) 09:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Vaporware that gets significant coverage passes the GNG. Released products that do not get significant coverage fail GNG. Is it sometimes stupid?  Sure.  But we build an encyclopedia about what can be verified without original research, even when the information is about things that do not and never will exist. Rockphed (talk) 17:03, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Atari VCS 2019.jpg
 * Whaaat? I thought it said it wasn't uploaded to there.--Everyonegoes2018 (talk) 16:40, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This notice is from June. -- ferret (talk) 16:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Should Atari VCS have a "Controversies" Section?
Atari has missed update deadlines, their social media agency ÜberStrategist Inc are removing posts and blocking/banning users that simply ask for an update on the project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.122.136.140 (talk) 13:22, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * You'll need to provide reliable secondary coverage to include anything. -- ferret (talk) 13:49, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Some controversies: -- Zeneater (talk) 15:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Atari brings an empty box, no details to a hotel room outside GDC before crowdfunding campaign.
 * Atari denies the above, so The Register posts recordings.
 * Feargal Mac Conuladh leaves the project and sues Atari Gamebox, LLC.
 * Atari fakes Tempest 4000 gameplay on their hardware, but creator Llammasoft says there's no Linux port.
 * I feel this is still too defragmented of an issue ("have they delivered anything yet?") to support a controversy section. --M asem (t) 17:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Not saying this is sufficient but more in case there is a larger story to be written: Atari VCS devs stripped of Reddit mod status after trying to explain lack of announcement on given dates. --M asem (t) 13:50, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

is Atari VCS really an 8th gen microconsole?
On Template:Video game consoles, in the 8th gen section, it says Atari VCS in the microconsole row. This is wrong because a microconsole is normally a low cost and android based device that can buy games on an app or play store, or a tv that can play games, as said on the microconsole page. Since the VCS is neither of those, it should be classified as a home video game console and PC hybrid. It also is released just after the PS5 and Xbox Series X|S does, classifying it as a 9th gen, not 8th gen. --Gamer Cloud (talk) 05:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Placing the VCS in the template was probably premature for a few reasons. It doesn't look like Template:Video game consoles|Generation:Ninth exists yet. It looks like it will eventually be the PS5, Xboxes, this thing, and the Intellivision Amico. Did I miss any? Anyway, all of this would depend on what reliable sources say, but there have been scant few of those for obvious reasons. Once this is released (or if this is released) we can assess how sources describe it and make changes accordingly.
 * I'm guessing that Template talk:Video game consoles has more active watchers than this page. I would suggest starting a discussion there. Grayfell (talk) 05:38, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The template is following the article. I don't have a strong view on this beyond that "Ninth" generation doesn't exist yet and the sourcing for it is missing at this time, per WP:VG consensus. The article currently lists Atari VCS as a "microconsole" hence it's placement in the template. If that's wrong, the article needs fixed before the template. -- ferret (talk) 19:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup, good point. Sources call it a microconsole, so the article will follow. Grayfell (talk) 00:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not. It's a consumer budget nettop PC. Not even top or mainstream, but budget. It doesn't have any gaming hardware inside. Elk Salmon (talk) 21:48, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The PlayStation 3 also allowed to install a third party desktop on the console, like Yellow Dog Linux. “Gaming hardware” does not make sense since years as even Xbox and PlayStation returned to classic PC components (though with custom designs, like the Atari VCS even did). Like the PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series, the Atari VCS features an AMD APU based on Ryzen architecture. The VCS800 also has 8GB of RAM (upgradable to 32GB) which is close to the Xbox Series 10GB of RAM. Because the Atari VCS is the budget one, it uses DDR4 while Xbox Series and PlayStation 5 uses GDDR6 but all gamers on PC uses DDR4 so DDR4 is definitely a gamer component. Also, DDR4 2400 is pretty decent for gaming. The GPU featured in that APU is a Vega GPU (GCN 5) with 2GB of VRAM, which is not bad even if it's a budget Vega. The HDMI port is able to drive 4K screens at 60Hz. The Atari VCS storage can be extended with an internal M.2 SSD (like the PlayStation 5) or with external storage (like the Xbox Series), so it's definitely a gaming machine, a budget gaming machine for sure but a gaming machine. Note that the console being able to run third-party systems does not make it a net-top, at most an hybrid, like the PlayStation 3 was. The Atari VCS console OS is encrypted and only authorized third-party OS can run (Secure Boot). -- Illwieckz (talk) 11:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It was first designed in 2017 as an 8th generation game console, with a pre-ryzen APU like the Xbox One and the PlayStation 4, then after some delay being experienced, it was redesigned in 2019 to fit the 9th generation, picking a Ryzen APU like the Xbox Series and PlayStation 5, and released in the same time (Xbox Series and PlayStation 5 being released in November of 2020 and the Atari VCS seeing its first release in December of 2020). The 8th generation design was cancelled and what was released was an 9th generation design. Also it's not a microconsole. There is many sources stating this redesign and many sources stating it's intended to take on PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series (while the Atari VCS is low-level), and the Atari brand is already occupying the microconsole market with the Atari Flashback line. -- Illwieckz (talk) 10:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This argument misunderstands what "generation" means for consoles. The "generation" is used from an economic side to describe which set of consoles are the major competitive consoles on the market to consumers, which are not required to include all consoles released at the same time period if those consoles are not considered to be in major competition. For example, if we fall back to the Fifth generation of video game consoles, there were five main consoles that are considered part of that generation, but then you have consoles like the Amiga CD32 or the FM Towns Marty that were contemporary consoles (released in the same time period and had comparable specs) but were not commercially competitive to the five main consoles, so aren't considered part of that generation. The Ouya was a contemporary console of the eighth generation but is not an eighth generation console. At this point, while we are still in limbo in trying to define what the ninth gen is, we can be certain that the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S will be a part of it, but no sourcing establishes that the Atari VCS has any commercial play into that competition; Atari's desire for it to be competive is one thing, but we don't use primary/first-party sources for that definition. --M asem (t) 17:32, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Renaming this article?
This page should probably be renamed come tomorrow since the console isn't going to launch in 2020. The website for the console is currently calling the system the Atari VCS 800, but renaming to Atari VCS (2021) would probably also work. --Mbrickn (talk) 15:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I moved to upcoming, because we simply have no reliable sourcing for a 2021 release, even if that's almost certainly the case. Then again, 2018, 2019, and 2020 were all "certainly the case" once upon a time. -- ferret (talk) 15:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The Atari VCS Support Team at Discord send me the official release date: 11 December 2020. The problem is now the link referenced: is at Indiegogo, which is a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist. https://www.  indiegogo     .com/projects/atari-vcs-game-stream-connect-like-never-before/x/17433948#/updates/47 I will try to convince them to give me another address, for example on the official blog.  -- JoaquinFerrero (talk) 19:57, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The fact that this console has been vaporware for some time, and no RSes have reported on this release means we should wait until we have a RS that affirms the console's release, we cannot go by even the fundraising site even if that wasn't blocked. --M asem (t) 04:58, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The product exists. You can see a multitude of photos on the Internet of users who already have it. JoaquinFerrero (talk) 22:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I've reverted your disruptive page move. Do not do it again without an consensus. The console has yet to have a market/retail release and no reliable secondary sources claim otherwise. You were advised of all this before. -- ferret (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

3O Response: I am responding to the request for a Third Opinion in relation to the issue of renaming this article, which itself is more broadly related to the issue of appropriate sourcing for the upcoming release date. The most relevant policy here is verifiability, which goes to say that all material on the encyclopaedia must be attributable to reliable, published sources. As I understand it, there is not yet a reliable source stipulating the release date for this console. Hence, to change the article title to reflect a specific date or time period in the absence of such sources would seem to breach the policy on verifiability and the article should therefore remain at its' current title of "Atari VCS (upcoming console)". I would also suggest that should a source for the console release date be found, and therefore a change in the article title is again proposed, a specific discussion particularly relating to the article title should occur to enable consensus at that time to be reviewed (e.g. a Requested Move discussion). I hope that this has been helpful. Jack Frost (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone has a problem that once we have an affirmed date for the console's wide release to the general public (not just to backers) that this article can be immediately changed to "Atari VCS (YYYY console)", and likely that will be this year, but given how much the release has slipped, we absolutely need to wait for confirmation they are ready to ship for the general public. --M asem (t) 00:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What has been released to backers is the final product. This distinction is similar to an US brand that would, for example, only ship to US before any other countries. If they never release for the general public the only release data would be 2020 so I don't know what we are waiting for. And if they make a second release in 2021, stating this console would have been released on 2021 would be a fake news. Release date is first release date. If an US brand release a product in US in 2020 and in Spain in 2021, the release date would be 2020. -- Illwieckz (talk) 09:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What we are seeing is the equivalent of an early access release for software, which we do not use as the formal release date. That you had to buy in early to get it is what makes the December backer release a non-release for us. When it is possible to buy it on a whim and get it is when we consider it released. --M asem  (t) 15:17, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Early access is about unfinished product. What is shipped is not said to be an alpha or beta version of the Atari VCS, it's said to be the release one. If it is stated the retail product is different then we may consider the retail date as the release one or we may consider it as a second edition, that would be a debate (another debate), but if the retail product is the same as the one that is already shipped, there would be no debate and the release date would be December 2020, because it would not have been early access, that would just be a company having low production rate distributing the same product in waves. -- Illwieckz (talk) 17:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * We are in the same case as the ZX Spectrum Next. It has different dates of departure and corresponds to the departure of the models to the bakers. Naturally, the important thing is the date, but the only one Atari shows is the one indicated on the Indiegogo page that we cannot link to because Indiegogo is blacklisted from linkable sites. Other Wikipedias use dates published in digital magazines. JoaquinFerrero (talk) 21:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * @Illwieckz: Actually, the console being shipped to backers is a beta version. Atari SA's PR people directly call it an "early access" and "beta" release, and it is evident from their statements that their intent is to use backers as de facto beta testers before the planned general release in March 2021.
 * Statements straight from the horse's mouth:
 * 30 Sep 2019: "Backers will receive their orders in December to take part in the unfinished "early access" phase while content is completed and kinks worked out!"
 * 28 Nov 2019: "The release of the Atari VCS to our Indiegogo backers is an opportunity to get early feedback from a heavily engaged and invested community of passionate users prior to our official launch. We promised backers involvement from the start and this is similar to a software pre-release, which is quite common in the tech and gaming industry. We expect that early and ongoing user feedback will lead to software updates that improve the experience and functionality. “Early access” does not mean incomplete or unfinished; as with any game system, we look forward to engaging with the community to deliver the best possible Atari VCS experience."
 * 3 Dec 2020: "Danger Scavenger will be available on the Atari VCS starting in December as part of our beta launch to backers."
 * 11 Dec 2020: "Atari started shipping VCS products to Indiegogo campaign backers starting on December 11, 2020. This is prior to the general public availability and includes the opportunity to participate in software testing, etc." (sorry, Wikipedia blocks linking to Indiegogo directly, please fix the link by yourselves by removing the minus sign from "indie-gogo")
 * 15 Dec 2020 (in comments): "As stated many times, we are laying the foundation right now and using the next couple months as a beta to work with you and other backers to refine and improve the experience in advance of the full retail launch in early 2021."
 * Third-party sources:
 * 7 Jan 2021: "Beta consoles have already shipped to Indiegogo backers and are being met with positive feedback."
 * --Krótki (talk) 11:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Assumptions about the system being open
In the article there is this sentence with a reference from 2017: “The software is specifically designed to be open to allow users to install other Linux-compatible applications on the Atari VCS alongside pre-installed games”, this seems to fall among many wrong assumptions on the system (along the other wrong classifications among miniconsoles or retro consoles despite not being part of the Atari FlashBack line). The operating system and data are encrypted, the boots is secured by Secure Boot and the display is protected by HDCP. It's not expected someone can extract data from the “PC Mode” neither modify the official system and content from the “PC Mode”. The “PC Mode” in Atari VCS is very similar to the “OtherOS” feature that was in early PlayStation 3, where customers were able to install some distributions (like Yellow Dog Linux) under the control of the hypervisor, here the user can install some distributions under the control of Secure Boot.

Also, the article says the console “allows players to download games from external websites or install through storage media such as SD cards” with a “reference needed” template since 2018. But first SD card reader was removed, and I have not seen any media talking about the ability to download game from any random source (including websites) about the released product. It looks like in the early days people confused it with a SteamBox-like product, which is not.

Many things on this page looks to be wrong assumptions from 2017 that do not match the actual released product. -- Illwieckz (talk) 09:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I have studied a bit more this sentence and context and yes, it allows too much over-interpretation: “The software is specifically designed to be open to allow users to install other Linux-compatible applications on the Atari VCS alongside pre-installed games”. This sentence is referenced by an article quoting an e-mail, saying: ”Linux lets us be more open; you can access and customise the OS, and you can access games you've bought from other content platforms”. Atari VCS information from 2017 is outdated and it's better to be prudent about it. Since the release I have not found a review confirming that statement yet.

In fact the quoted mail was ambiguous: in “Linux lets us be more open”, “us” can be Atari, in “you can access and customise the OS”, “you” can be the partners, and “you can access games” does not mean player can provide the game. For example that sentence is compatible with the idea of an authorized store redownloading an application you already bought before and outside the Atari VCS while being captive from the various authorized apps. The initial sentence is too strong on the idea an user can install whatever he wants like he would do on a classic Linux distribution (even by providing the installer/package himself, especially since another sentence talked about downloading from websites and installing from external media), unless proven that would be overinterpreted (and original).

So it looks better to say “In 2017, quoting a mail from the company it was said the software is specifically designed to be open to allow to install other Linux-compatible applications on the Atari VCS alongside pre-installed games” instead. It's better to say “in year XX they said” because if they had a plan and walked back, at least it's a fact they said that. -- Illwieckz (talk) 17:10, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Update to Windows 11 compatible
A quick Google search shows the system is compatible and can run Windows 11 -Respectfully Loch TheRealLochNess (talk) 05:22, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Cloud Gaming Compatibility
The Atari VCS can now play Stadia, Luna, Xbox Cloud Gaming, and Geforce Now. Doremon764 (talk) 18:30, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

"Atari VCS (upcoming console)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Atari VCS (upcoming console) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 30 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 23:55, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Questioning the microconsole categorization
Header says it all. Looking through the references, I see little to indicate they consider the unit a microconsole now that it has been released. Of course, the term is nebulous and poorly defined, seeming to have been a brief-lived phenomenon of units to play Android games on TVs which proved to be a market dud. Is it a budget unit with digital-only distribution? Sure, but so is the Xbox Series S by that definition. In short, I think we should not try to categorize it as a microconsole without current, post-release sources explicitly calling it that (not five-year-old sources from the early days of development rumors) and should just call it a video game console. oknazevad (talk) 22:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)