Talk:Atelier

alter outline, clarify, few corrections, add methodTMDed (talk) 21:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, the link to glazing is incorrect. Glazing in art means something really different than glazing in industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.60.9.252 (talk) 17:03, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The external links section has really gotten out of hand. It was changed to ARC Endorsed links but still retains unrelated 'external links'. The links to Ateliers should be removed and replaced with one link pointing to the ARC Endorsed Atelier list. Ngrussell (talk) 06:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

comparison to French
Note that the French page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atelier links to English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workshop and that the French page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atelier_d%27artiste links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio. Things should probably be cleaned up. 75.36.141.64 (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Listing current/historical ateliers
Relating to a recent delete, an odd thing not to have a table listing notable historical and currently operating ateliers. There certainly aren't hundreds of such institutions in the US presently. Maneesh (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:06, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Notability hasn't been established, nor are any of these schools subjects of Wikipedia articles. Please don't add linkspam to articles. JNW (talk) 23:09, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Many historical ateliers do not have URLs, don't see how that is linkspam. I'm sure a large subset of ateliers that would be added here would be very notable, how would you define Water St. as "not notable"?  Jacob Collins appears as someone who is notable.Maneesh (talk) 23:13, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Notability's defined by Wikipedia's criteria, not by which schools you or I find notable. Jacob Collins is the subject of an article, Water Street isn't. And yes, there are hundreds of ateliers now. JNW (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Your reasoning is circular here. Because Water St. doesn't have a a wikipedia entry, it isn't notable?  How is one supposed to add an article on Water St. then?  I would say that there are less than hundreds of sizeable ateliers in the USA.Maneesh (talk) 23:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It's basic redline policy. Notability must first be established before adding people or businesses to articles here. JNW (talk) 23:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

−
 * I would suggest leaving the edits up until there is at least a little discussion here. So your claim is that Water St. isn't notable?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maneesh (talk • contribs) 23:22, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow. Will return later. Again, it's not your opinion or mine. Please read policy. JNW (talk) 23:25, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I am aware of it, and posting in good faith. I've provided a very straightforward example for you, if you can convince me that Water St. isn't notable according to wikipedia notability I'm happy to not bother with the table.Maneesh (talk) 23:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * What is it with wikipedia culture? I've got an edit warning suggesting I post to the talk page when I clearly already have.  Water St. doesn't need its own page on wikipedia to be notable, but you can see coverage in the[ NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/04/garden/04pants.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0], googling will show many artists have trained there, Artist's Magazine, galleries and conferences etc.  This constitutes significant reliable coverage independent from Collins/Water St.  This is just one example, I'm sure we'll find more from other ateliers.Maneesh (talk) 23:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, Wikipedia culture is very good on this sort of thing. There are multiple problems with adding such listings. One, it's purely subjective to list such schools if not accompanied by multiple sources, or if the subjects aren't already covered here in stand-alone articles; the very designation 'historical ateliers' is, alas, original research--what constitutes a historical atelier? Two, we don't rely on external links, hence the appearance of spamming, even if that's not the intention. Three, Wikipedia articles are not to be used as directories. Four, this would have violated WP:EL even at the end of the article; placing this list near the top was way outside of encyclopedic norm, and further contributes to the impression that there's a promotional angle. And five, the article has been used in the past for lengthy listings of ateliers, almost none of which have been established as meeting our WP:NOTABILITY guidelines. To start a listing again is to invite everyone to list their ateliers, and we get spamcruft. JNW (talk) 01:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. An article on modern American "ateliers", which seems to be a term for independent traditionalist training schools, would be a better way. Used in this way the term is exclusively American I think< & there ought not to be too much on it here. Johnbod (talk) 04:28, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I can see that there is some baggage here and some of it is understandable. Unfortunately, my experience with article creation recently has been running into overactive deleters (look at the my contribution history for the established computer science terms regarding determinism). Not listing a single atelier (past or present) in this article doesn't seem right.  One: I've already provided two reasonable sources on Water St., and there are more.  Given the clear  description in the Jacob Collins article and the list of notable artists that have come from there (who have shown in galleries, published books etc.)  don't understand your suggestion that multiple sources do not support at least some ateliers.  Two: I understand the external links policy, perhaps the links to the ateliers probably shouldn't be in the table (but this should be resolvable by merely editing them out).  Three: which policy suggests that wikipedia articles should not be able to function as directories, look at: List of programming languages?  Starting with external links in the table and slowly editing and building out articles seems to be a lot more constructive to me.  Four: Hardly a justification to delete the table, the correct action would be to *move the section to the appropriate location*.  Five: Yes, it appears there is some history here.  The term isn't exclusively American, and schools that refer to themselves as academies (FAA, RAA, AAA) have very very similar structures (though I don't know what the precise differences might be with American ateliers, perhaps number of active students).Maneesh (talk) 06:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The initial addition of a listing was accompanied by the edit summary Atelier community needs a centralized list of schools, this would be a good place to put them I think; well, no, the community does not need a centralized listing. WP:NOTDIR touches upon this, and WP:ELNO, #13 states a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. It's standard practice on Wikipedia that a stand alone article on a specific person or institution is necessary before it's added to an article covering the more general topic. Ivy League requires a listing of member schools; it's a well documented consortium. In this case, the 'See also' section serves the purpose well, though it's US-centric, and could expand to include important examples from other parts of the world. It links to other Wikipedia articles about atelier schools, whose historical standing (ASL and NAD) and more recent notability (NYAA) have been clearly established. JNW (talk) 12:24, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The annotated reason for the change shouldn't have anything to do with the validity of the change, communities need central listings of things, this isn't completely incompatible with wikipedia's policies. WP:NOTDIR seems mostly concerned with things like "event listings" ateliers come up and down over longer timescales, and some do meet the criteria for notability (e.g. it seems clear to me that Water St. is notable with significant reliable independent coverage). A list of notable ateliers (a more accurate intention of my original change) would seem to be quite useful here.Maneesh (talk) 17:47, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Why does this article have methods?
This seems to be an article about a physical place, whats up with all these "methods". Is it really about an educational system during a specific period? That might make sense with the methods, but then someone needs to change the opening definition paragraph. Make up your minds. Poundsand2 (talk) 12:25, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed to "Methods used to train Early Modern artists" which is I hope clearer. But perhaps this should be at Academic art or somewhere else. As you say, "atelier" is a broader term than just this. Johnbod (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)