Talk:Ateneo de Zamboanga University

External links modified
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I have just modified 3 one external links on Ateneo de Zamboanga University. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.adzu.edu.ph/about-adzu/history
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090429030947/http://www.adzu.edu.ph:80/07/tour/index.php to http://www.adzu.edu.ph/07/tour/index.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090505230327/http://www.adzu.edu.ph:80/07/academicUnits/?pageTitle=Academics&sublink=High+School&cat_sublink=Description to http://www.adzu.edu.ph/07/academicUnits/?pageTitle=Academics&sublink=High+School&cat_sublink=Description
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091211011655/http://csitao.multiply.com:80/journal to http://csitao.multiply.com/journal

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 14:12, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Article revamp project
Hi! I am Joshua, a student of AdZU, and after my final examinations I plan to do a major edit of this page in order to bring it closer to Wikipedia standards and be more comprehensive in content. Here are my plans: Please do give comments if necessary. Thanks! Joshua Vargas (talk) 11:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * On the "History" section, add paragraphs on the Brebeuf Gym fire as it was a historic moment for the university - I wish to highlight the university's efforts to rise from the incident, but will also try my best to be neutral in tone
 * Add an "Academics" section which will cover AdZU's five undergraduate schools (and their administered graduate programs), the College of Law, the School of Medicine, and the Basic Education units from Grade School to Senior High School. I will briefly cover the schools and what they offer, although I will not elaborate on courses because this is after all not promotional material, and also have sections on AdZU's research efforts, admissions, and if I can get enough information, grading system.
 * I wish to rewrite the "University image" section, as the content was taken directly from the AdZU website. I plan to summarize the part on the seal, which currently describes every single element in more detail than necessary for an encyclopedia, and then add whatever I could find about the school's reputation.
 * Add a "Student Life" section which will replace the current section on "Student councils and publications." As a former (failed) candidate for a Student Council, an editor at the SHS publications (and former EIC of both the elementary and junior high publications), and a (novice) debater, I think AdZU's extracurricular activities set the school apart, and I want to see more content on this aspect of the institution on the article. (Again, I am committed to neutrality and will not praise the school or tell readers that this makes AdZU better than other schools, but I think AdZU student life deserve more elaboration than, say, the seal.)

UPDATE - after forgetting about the project I have finally done a rough draft of what I've been wanting to do. Further improvements in referencing (made difficult by the University's website not being very comprehensive in terms of informational substance) and content originality will be needed before I find this article to be good. I modeled this format partly on the pages of Ateneo de Manila University and Georgetown University, the former due to some similarities given that they're both Ateneo schools and the latter because it is a Jesuit school that achieved Featured Article status before. Feedback on my edits is appreciated! Joshua Vargas (talk) 13:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Referencing
Hi! I've already started to expand and revamp the article based on what I believe are long-due changes. However, I think the next challenge for this page is referencing. Substantial Ateneo de Zamboanga info is mostly documented in official websites and Facebook pages. Most media coverage of the University is about social development programs with DepEd, the institution's role in larger events (e.g. the Bangsamoro process), or the Brebeuf Gym fire. As a result, I've had troubles finding quality secondary references for information that I believe is important, but which is hard to really expand and elaborate on without original research (which shouldn't belong on Wikipedia). I'd appreciate everyone's help on contributions to citations in the article. I would also like to mention again that I am aware of the ambitious scope and scale of my edits, and am welcome to discuss them on this Talk page if other editors do not agree with what I am doing. Thanks! Joshua Vargas (talk) 05:17, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * And the problem is that Facebook and other social media are not reliable sources. Just like the university-website(s) are unsuitable due to being not independent. Is there ever been a (independently published) book published about the university? That will be a suitable source. Newspaper articles from the main stream press are also suitable sources. The Banner  talk 10:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Article edit
Hi! It's been years since my last edit on the page as I have been occupied with other things.

I understand that my and other original content writers' close association with the subject is disadvantageous for a proper and encyclopedic coverage of the topic, but the last major edit has been done in such an atrocious manner that removes much important information and has questionable structure (for example, Admissions as a subsection for a header about the RISE capital campaign). The article is now a stub with nonsensical content. I'd fix this myself if not for neutrality concerns.

There appears to be a serious problem with how foreign Wikipedia editors establish notability for articles about institutions, organisations, people, and other important entities in underprivileged locales and countries. This is not a university in the middle of nowhere; American liberal arts colleges with smaller enrolments have been allowed lengthy discussions of their history and traditions. The way edits have been handled over the past few years is frustrating to me as a long-term follower of Wikipedia.

Joshua Vargas (talk) 05:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I share your concern about spammy American university articles. But bad articles about other universities is no reason to lower the standards here too. Independent (not in any way related to the subject), reliable (no social media and user-generated content), prior published sources it what we need. The Banner  talk 10:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, so I acknowledge that my edits from years ago when I was fresh out of high school do not deserve to stay, but wow editors' condescension and lack of care really is something! Joshua Vargas (talk) 12:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Not lack of care, just using the same threshold for notability wikiwide. The Banner  talk 12:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Refurbishing this Article
Hello! I'm a student of the Ateneo de Zamboanga University, and it has come to my attention - as someone chronically online - that the Wikipedia page of the university is severely lacking.

I have read the previous discussions and I would like to thank @Joshuarhvargas, a senior of mine, for attempting to refurbish the article in the past. However, I also respect @The Banner for their vigilance against advertising and promotional text. I have skimmed over WP's relevant policies and will now attempt to have a go at editing the article, in service of the University and the students who call it home with pride.

I understand and accept the skepticism we have against the use of primary sources that are unduly influenced by the University's attempts to promote itself. Interpreting the advice kind editors at the TeaHouse has given me, I have made some edits to clarify some facts that must have been removed inadvertently in the past. These facts are explicitly mentioned in the University's website and, while not completely free from bias, have been edited to showcase the least subjectivity.

In the future, I intend to utilize the secondary sources present to further refurbish the article at a greater capacity. As a newcomer to this editing business, I am grateful for any other editor who wishes to help make this article better and more relevant to readers.

Thank you so much! RyanTahamid (talk) 13:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I hope you can leave a note on your user page that you have a Conflict of Interest, per WP:COI. I will restore the source request for an independent source that you removed, conform Wikipedia:Verifiability. The Banner  talk 14:03, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello, thank you for responding! To clarify, I did not remove any source or reference from the article, only a tag indicating that better citations are needed. I have no issue with it being returned, though, and do really appreciate the help.
 * I'll be leaving a note on my user page as WP policy requires. I also checked the policy for any other concerns and it "strongly discouraged" from making edits. I am concerned about this, insofar as the references I would be citing are often made by local historians, stored in the University's own collection, of whom I would be surveying only through the kindness of my professor. I am afraid that opportunity would not be accessible to others who have a similar COI as me.
 * Do you think this warrants an exception of the policy? I assure that any edits I will be making in the future would be properly documented, with citations indicated in this TalkPage as needed. RyanTahamid (talk) 14:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * People should now about your COI. It will certainly help when you built the article by using independent (non-school related) sources. The Banner  talk 15:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Using Facebook as Self-Published, Primary Source
The El Consejo Atenista (the official student council of Ateneo de Zamboanga University), unfortunately, does not have an official, independent publication through which they can course their press releases, documents, or basically any information about themselves. The least that could be found - and the one most commonly used - is through their Facebook pages, ECA Office of the President and Office of the Vice President.

I reviewed relevant policies (WP:RELIABLE,WP:SELFPUB) and, from what I understand, this scenario should be treated as self-published information about itself (WP:SELFSOURCE). Given that I plan to use Facebook pages and posts they make on such pages, relevant policies (WP:FACEBOOK) guided me in coming up with idea. From what I understand, it is permissible to use such references if: a) "when the subject of the article has no other Web presence"; b) "it can be authenticated as belong to the subject" as a self-published, primary source; and, c) it would be used sparingly.

In light of this, I plan to include a short section on the student council on campus (the Student Council President and Vice President, the College Governors, and Vice-Governors). I understand that independent, secondary references are preferable to self-published Facebook pages, but it is indeed hard to imagine a newspaper writing about a student government or its constitution.

I appreciate any and all comments that can help clarify this up! Thank you so much! RyanTahamid (talk) 17:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A Facebook page of an organisation (or any other social media) is not an independent source. If you do not have an independent source, you better should not add the information in the first place. The Banner  talk 22:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)