Talk:Athabaskan languages

Athabaskan/Athabascan?
Is there any particular reason that this page was created separately from the original Athabaskan page? It seems to me that it should just redirect to the other page, with any additional information incorporated into that page. They are, as far as I can tell, only variant spellings of each other, and so do not warrant separate pages. If you don't want me to change this back to a redirect, let me know soon.
 * Lambda 18:14, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Texas?
Are there Navajo and Apache in Texas? -- Zoe


 * there may be. some Apache groups are native to Texas, namely Mescalero and Lipan, and maybe Jicarilla. of course, as is well known, they had been forced elsewhere.  Navajos are a little further west, but perhaps some Navajos have left their homelands to settle in Texas territory. &mdash; ishwar   (S PEAK )  06:32, 2005 May 20 (UTC)

moved from Na-Dené languages
probably should incorporate this info into this article


 * Ahtna language: 80 speakers, (M. Krauss, 1995)
 * Beaver language
 * Chipewyan language
 * Hän language: 7 or 8 fluent speakers, (M. Krauss, 1995)
 * Holikachuk language: 12 fluent speakers, (M. Krauss, 1995)
 * Koyukon language: 300 speakers (M. Krauss, 1995)
 * Tanaina language: 75 or fewer speakers (M. Krauss, 1997)
 * Lower Tanana language: 30 or fewer speakers (M. Krauss, 1995)
 * Upper Tanana language: 105 or fewer speakers (M. Krauss, 1995)
 * Tolowa language: 5 speakers (SIL, 1977)
 * Southern Athabaskan languages
 * Jicarilla Apache language: 812 speakers, (1990 census)
 * Plains Apache language: 18 speakers, (1990 census)
 * Lipan Apache language: 2 or 3 speakers, (1981 R.W. Young)
 * Mescalero Apache language: 1,521 speakers (1990 census)
 * Chiricahua Apache language: 279 Chiricahua speakers (1990 census)
 * Western Apache language: 12,693 speakers (1990 census)
 * Navajo language: 148,530 speakers, (1990 census)
 * Athabaskan-Californian languages
 * Hupa language: 8 fluent speakers, (James Brook, 1998, NY Times, April 9, p A1, A20)
 * Kato (Mattole-Wailaki) language: 10 fluent speakers(?), (Chafe, 1962)

list too long?
hi. this list with all dialects/sublangs too long? there is the common problem (here as well as in other families) where dialects have historically been called distinct languages & where distinct languages have been called by the same name. this was my original reason for the inclusion of many dialects. however, it is rather lengthy.

what does someone else think? peace – ishwar  (speak)  19:54, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)


 * I'm relatively new to Wikipedia, so this question might look stupid: is it possible to create tree-lists? I mean those with the wrappable branches and subbranches (clicking on the little [+] would unwrap the branch and show the subbranches). If it's not possible here, perhaps we should suggest this feature to the Wiki-developers. What's your opinion? --Pet'usek 12:44, 18 March 2006 (UTC) (Czech Republic)


 * I dont believe that this is possible yet. Yes, a good suggestion. – ishwar  (speak)  15:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

simpler list
at any rate below is the pruned list

I agree that this list looks better --Aes1691 (talk) 21:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) NORTHERN
 * 2) Central Alaska – Yukon
 * 3) Deg Xinag
 * 4) Gwich’in
 * 5) Hän
 * 6) Holikachuk
 * 7) Koyukon
 * 8) Tanacross
 * 9) Lower Tanana
 * 10) Upper Tanana
 * 11) Tutchone
 * 12) Upper Kushokwin
 * 13) Southern Alaskan
 * 14) Ahtna
 * 15) Dena’ina
 * 16) Central British Columbia
 * 17) Babine
 * 18) Dakelh
 * 19) Chilcotin
 * 20) Kwalhioqua-Tlatskanai
 * 21) Kwalhioqua-Clatskanie
 * 22) Northwestern Canada
 * 23) Beaver
 * 24) Chipewyan
 * 25) Dogrib
 * 26) Sekani
 * 27) Slave (Bearlake, Hare, Mountain, Slavey)
 * 28) Tahltan (Tahltan, Kaska, Tagish)
 * 29) Sarsi
 * 30) Sarsi
 * 31) Tsetsaut
 * 32) Tsetsaut
 * 33) PACIFIC COAST
 * 34) California
 * 35) Hupa (Chilula, Hupa)
 * 36) Mattole-Bear River
 * 37) Eel River (Cahto, Lassik, Nongatl, Sinkyone, Wailaki)
 * 38) Oregon
 * 39) Upper Umpqua
 * 40) Rogue River
 * 41) Galice-Applegate
 * 42) Tolowa
 * 43) SOUTHERN
 * 44) Plains
 * 45) Plains Apache
 * 46) Western
 * 47) Chiricahua-Mescalero
 * 48) Navajo
 * 49) Western Apache
 * 50) Eastern
 * 51) Jicarilla
 * 52) Lipan

Need better picture
The Athabascan languages were traditionally spoken over a huge area in Canada and Alaska. We need to illustrate this. The current picture, which only shows the southern N. America areas, is woefully inadequate. Can anyone come up with something? &mdash; Nowhither 22:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Sure, just need more time. Here is the distribution of Athabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit including northern, Pacific, and southern Athabaskan.


 * I ultimately envision a big picture map of the distribution over the entire continent and 3 more detailed maps showing every individual language in the 3 geographic regions. peace – ishwar  (speak)  05:47, 2005 August 24 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a great idea. In the mean time, I've replaced the pic on the article page with your more comprehensive pic. &mdash; Nowhither 19:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Proto-Athabaskan
Is Proto-Athabaskan really reconstructed as having two vowels? Campbell 1997 says that Krauss and Golla 1981, Krauss 1979, and Cook and Rice 1989 reconstruct i, u, e ([æ]), a ([ɔ]), and "reduced vowels" α, ə, and ʊ. --Whimemsz 02:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * hi. no, there are 7 vowels as you say. i just havent finished writing it. if you know it, please add. peace – ishwar  (speak)  16:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * the vowels are important in the development of tone. it is a bit complicated. a nice book on Athabaskan prosody was published just this year that is useful. i was going to write something one day, but i am sidetracked now. i'll just take out the vowels until then. – ishwar  (speak)  02:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well...I look forward to reading about it when you do! Take care, --Whimemsz 02:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Comparanda
Having no dictionary of Athabascan languages (nor any other Na-Dene tongues), I cannot do this myself. But could someone possibly make a list of basic vocabulary items (Dolgopolski's 15-, Yakhontov's 35-, Swadesh's 100- or 200-word list) or, at least, give me some information on where I could find an on-line dictionary of any Athabascan language? Thank you very much in advance.

--Pet'usek 12:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC) (Czech Republic)


 * I dont believe that there is an online dictionary. (I wish there were.) Look up the work of Michael Krauss & Jeff Leer to see reconstructed forms of Proto-Athabascan, Pre-Proto-Athabascan, and Proto-Athabascan-Eyak. (Pre-Proto-Athabascan is an internally reconstructed language intermediate between Proto-Athabascan and Proto-Athabascan-Eyak.) I dont know how developed Proto-Athabascan-Eyak-Tlingit is — you would have to ask Jeff Leer about that. He does has a large database of forms in manuscript form, but I dont know if it is electronic. – ishwar  (speak)  15:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC) (maybe you can ask User:Billposer what he knows).


 * also look at John Enrico's recent article in Anthro. Ling. & Heinz-Jürgen Pinnow's work. – ishwar  (speak)  20:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Genealogical relationships
There should be a brief mention of the (Athabaskan+Eyak), ((Athabaskan+Eyak)+Tlingit), as well as of the controversial ((Athabaskan+Eyak)+Tlingit)(+Haida) link, I think. Let me add a To-Do list to the talk page - anyone can expand the list or remove individual items. --Pe t 'usek [ petr dot hrubis at gmail dot com ] 09:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Split peoples with languages?
The intro gives the impression that Athabaskan can also refer to a group of indigenous peoples of America. Perhaps the peoples should be split from this page on linguistics? Saimdusan Talk|Contribs 08:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Family Tree outline is a mess
The numbering/hierarchy in a family tree outline needs to be consistent. The numbering as it is is confusing and thus makes the relationships and hierarchy not very clear. Azalea pomp (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

concept of recent migration
When was the idea first proposed that Athabaskan/Na-Dene was a more recent migration to America than other families? Was it Greenberg, or did he adopt a preexisting view? kwami (talk) 21:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Edward Sapir said it in something like 1921, and many others said it before Greenberg did. See: http://ia311202.us.archive.org/1/items/collectedworksof06sapi/collectedworksof06sapi.pdf (that's a large pdf file) Nosliw1 (talk) 17:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

There are citations for Kari 2009 & 1989 but no references
I suspect that Kari 1989 refers to: Kari, James. 1989. Affix Positions and Zones in the Athabaskan Verb Complex: Ahtna and Navajo. International Journal of American Linguistics 55:424-455

I have no idea what "Kari 2009" refers to though. Does anyone know? Nosliw1 (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Kwalhioqua–Tlatskanai language
The page of Kwalhioqua–Tlatskanai language (or Kwalhioqua–Clatskanie) created on the North Frisian wikipedia: frr:Kwalhioqua–Tlatskanai spriak. The page has only on the frr Wikipedia --Kmoksy (talk) 02:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Number of Athabaskan speakers
"The Athabaskan family is the second largest family in North America in terms of number of languages and the number of speakers..." I read this to mean that there are more Athabaskan speakers than English speakers in North America. Surely that is not correct. 66.67.24.71 (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The Indo-European family is the largest family in North America in terms of number of speakers (includes English). The Athabaskan family is the second largest. Second largest. —Stephen (talk) 12:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Siletz (Oregon) Mention?
Should the Siletz be mentioned? c.f. http://siletz.swarthmore.edu/?q=talking&fields=all&semantic_ids=  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.125.10.243 (talk) 05:36, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It's Tillamook. — kwami (talk) 05:58, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Where is the page Athabascan peoples ?
The new page for Alaskan Athabascans (a part of Athabascan peoples) in the Turkish Wikipedia (tr:Alaska Atabaskları) created. --Kmoksy (talk) 21:03, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * there is no such group. this is a language-group, not a cultural/ethnic community. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The pages ATHABASCANS (or ATHABASCAN PEOPLES or ATHABASCAN-SPEAKING PEOPLES) and ALASKAN ATHABASKANS are encyclopaedic! The Cultures of Alaska: 1) Athabascan; 2) Unangax and Alutiiq (Sugpiaq); 3) Yup’ik and Cup’ik; 4) Inupiaq and St. Lawrence Island Yupik; 5) Eyak, Tlingit, Haida and Tsimshian. The Alaskan Athabascans is one of the five cultures of Alaska Natives and encyclopaedic by Ankn.uaf.edu. The page Athabascan peoples is encyclopaedic, just as Algonquian peoples. The page "Athabascans" in the German (de:Athabasken) and Romanian (ro:Athabasca (popor)) Wikipedias. --Kmoksy (talk) 09:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Athabaskan ≈ Basque Kinship?
Disappointed there is no mention of possible Athabaskan ~ Basque kinship. A web search of the question 'Basque language ≈ Athabascan?' yields many references. When I first heard about the theory, I got a Basque-English dictionary. The word 'dene' ~ 'people' was listed and 'atha' ~ 'away.' So, this seems to suggest that Athabascan = Away-Basques,  which would make a lot of sense. Of course, their genome would have picked up new elements from Yenisei tribes and others. hgwb (talk) 07:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not a notable theory and therefore should not be included. There are theories of relationships between basques and pretty much every other language group in the world. The word "Athabascan" is not itself the athabascan name for the athabascan speakers, and Basque people don't call them salves "basque". So your proposed etymology double fails.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 11:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC
 * Sorry for my nonsensical etymology, see Lake Athabasca which is Cree. But see Dené–Caucasian languages for what some experts have thought, albeit controversially.hgwb (talk) 11:09, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Internal classification
If the Northern group varies about as much as the entire family, how valid is the subgrouping as presented? --JorisvS (talk) 20:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Washington Chilcotin?
The article lists Chilcotin and Nicola as Athapaskan languages of Washington. As far as I know Chilcotin is restricted to BC, and Nicola is a Salishan group (and not a language - though an Athapaskan migrant group did reside with them at one point, long since vanished or assimilated). Is there something here I am missing? 70.75.233.253 (talk) 07:32, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Turkic origin?
A question: "Ata baskan" means "father president" in Turkish, furthermore "ATHABASKAN BRAINSTEM DYSGENESIS SYNDROME" exists in Atabaskans and Turkish people. Did anybody think this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bilgin adem (talk • contribs) 21:05, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Almost everything in any language means something else in some other language. –Austronesier (talk) 17:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Athabaskan vs Na-Dene distributions
This article is confusing because it uses the Na-Dene languages distribution  for a map. What's the Athabaskan distribution, though? --Makkachin (talk) 13:16, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Since Tlingit is spoken in a very small area and Eyak is not spoken anymore (and was also spoken in a very small area) the distribution is almost identical. You would just have to remove one of the small dots in Washington State - I am not sure which one.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:26, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Coastal Alaskan panhandle and a little bit of northwestern BC is Tlingit territory, so the map is not far off. Megalophias (talk) 20:10, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer! :-) --Makkachin (talk) 20:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 08:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 one external links on Athabaskan languages. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100625131149/http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/athabascan.html to http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/athabascan.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110501025451/http://people.umass.edu/jkingstn/web%20page/research/athabaskan%20tonogenesis%20camera%20ready%20final%2021%20october%2004.pdf to http://people.umass.edu/jkingstn/web%20page/research/athabaskan%20tonogenesis%20camera%20ready%20final%2021%20october%2004.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080723190252/http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/docs/krauss_name_athabaskan.pdf to http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/docs/krauss_name_athabaskan.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100601065750/http://listserv.linguistlist.org:80/archives/athapbasckan-l.html to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/athapbasckan-l.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 14:27, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Athabaskan-Indo-European comparison
I made this post because one of the statements on the page seems rather strange:

''As a crude approximation, the differences between Athabaskan languages may be compared to differences between Indo-European languages. Thus, Koyukon and Dena'ina are about as different as French and Spanish, while Koyukon and Gwich'in are as different as English and Italian.''

This last sentence does not seems very believable, especially since the whole Athasbaskan family is as old as the Germanic branch, maybe it was more about lexicon but the way it's stated seems like it's more of a reference to genetic distance.

I know there's a citation so I searched a little & I found this : http://www.alaskool.org/language/Athabaskan/Athabas_Prelim.htm

It seems to be all of the book & as you can see there's no mention of a comparison between to two families, as such I don't think this statement should stay on the page...

(I apologize in advance if this is not how I should open a new section, I'm a beginner (as an active user) and I'm not very familiar with the advanced functions of the site)

Rafaël Calado (talk) 05:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing this out. The only statement in the source that comes close to the text in our article is here: "The differences between Alaskan Athabaskan languages can be compared readily with the degrees of difference between European languages. Koyukon and Tanana, for example, might be said to be as different as French and Spanish, while Koyukon and Kutchin might be as different as English and Italian." It's rather bold and illicit to extrapolate from "Alaskan Athabaskan" to "Athabaskan", and from "European" to "Indo-European", and since the article is about the Athabaskan languages in toto, I will just remove the statement. But the linked text is useful, so I will add in a further reading section. –Austronesier (talk) 16:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, thank you for the reply. Indeed it's stated in your link but if I recall correctly I did not find it in mine, in any case it's still the statement in itself which is troubling, it's made as a fact without precisions or development of why this comparison is factual, I think it's challenged by other sources for Athabaskan languages which make it rather...incoherent, still, I understand that the link must be preserved considering its usefulness as an introduction. Anyway, thanks for taking action ;-)

Rafaël Calado (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)