Talk:Athena/Archive 3

On Athena's appearance
I have added a description of Athenas countenance in classic sculpture. Not only her attributes but her face is fairly constant in sculpture. If you wish to check if my description is accurate, the Athena Album link in the article is the easiest way.

Incidentally, the article describes Athena as wearing full armor. In some reliefs, pictures and sculptures I have seen, she is, but in most, she isn't.

Sensemaker

Derivation from Hittite palahh
I removed this statement:

... her byname Pallas has been compared to Hittite palahh, a divine raiment.

The linked webpage does have an abstract (in German) of a paper that makes this argument (Fahri IŞIK, Zur anatolischen Athena im Lichte der Athena Ergane von Ilion und der Athena Nikephoros von Pergamon). However, this is just an abstract, not published research in a peer-reviewed journal, so I don't think it should be included in the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I also removed some other statements that seemed pretty questionable to me and didn't have sources, and took out the bit from Plato's Cratylus. The etymologies in the Cratylus are implausible at best, and probably weren't widely held by the classical Greeks, so it's usually not worth citing them in a general article. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Not an Anatolian mother goddess

 * "She has been compared to Anatolian mother goddesses like Cybele." No she hasn't. Not by anyone. Athena is not a mother goddess. I've removed this. There is still a lot of unnecessary duplication in this article's larter sections. --Wetman 07:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Along similar lines, could anyone provide better sources for the stuff in the "History" section? Athena's "sisterhood" sounds rather dubious to me. Ruck and Staples seems to be a mythology textbook, which I would almost consider a tertiary source; if they're citing something, I'd rather have that be our reference. How about sources for Athena's origin as a Minoan goddess or as a bird-goddess? This site doesn't strike me as a reliable source. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

If you will add references ...
Read first Footnotes.

The information of the sources must be complete in order to find the original source easily. --> User:Atenea26, 14:10, 27 Julu 2006 (UTC)

Removed Egyptian material
I removed the following text:


 * However it must be observed that Herodotus, who traveled to Egypt and derived much of his knowledge of Egyptian events from his conversations with Egyptian priests, also believed that Athena was the same goddess as Neith ( Histories 2:170-175). Herodotus describes the temples and monuments he saw in Sais which had been built by the Pharoah Amasis II.  These were, without doubt, dedicated to Neith, but Herodotus describes these as temples to Athena.  He further states that Amasis built shrines to Athena in the Greek colony of Kyrene, and also on the island of Rhodes in the city of Lindos. ( Histories 2:182)  Whether this implies that Amasis built structures in honor of both Athena and Neith separately, or whether Amasis considered them equivalent cannot be known.  Nevertheless, that Athena and Neith were equivalent was apparently an established idea in Greece in the classical era.  The interested reader may wish to further explore Herodotus' theories of an Egyptian origin for many of the Greek gods. (Histories 2:43)

Herodotus does say something like this, but his religious theories aren't regarded as reliable by modern scholars. For instance, if you look at Walter Burkert's Greek Religion, his section on Athena says nothing about Herodotus' "theories of an Egyptian origin for many of the Greek gods." Greek Religion is generally regarded as the authoritative work on Greek religion, so it's a good representative of academic consensus on these matters. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

>>Akhilleus-- OK, what you say is true enough, but before the above was added, the text made it appear as if this was an odd idea that Plato had, when in fact, probably a lot of people in his day believed it. I certainly did not intend to argue that it was true, so if I left that impression, then it was wise to revise as you did. I think the current read is fine. --Plamoa 13 Sep 2006


 * I'm sorry that I misunderstood your intentions, but I'm happy that we ended up with some satisfactory text. Thanks for supplying the Herodotus reference. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I re-wrote this:

Plato, and also Herodotus, noted that Greeks living in the city of Sais in Egypt worshipped a goddess whose Egyptian name was Neith; these Greeks, by Interpretatio graeca, identified her with Athena. (Timaeus 21e), (Histories 2:170-175).

Plato didn't say that citizens of Sais were Greeks, at least not during the time that Solon visited Sais. Plato's exact words are: "the citizens have a deity for their foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene; they are great lovers of the Athenians, and say that  they are in some way related to them . (Timaeus,21e). --Odysses (&#9756;) 17:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

"Athena is the patron goddess for the social fraternity Phi Delta Theta"
Some anon has added the following information about Athena to the Post-classical section, certain editors have been trying to remove it even though the argument that it is "irrelevant" seems a little suspicious to me:

Athena is the patron goddess for the social fraternity Phi Delta Theta.

How can you possibly argue that this is irrelevant to Athena? Do you understand the definition of the word "relevant"? There must be some other motive for your not wanting this to be exposed, because "relevance" is a non-starter for an argument. Is this going to take an rfd? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah we're trying to cover up the world-shaking information that a frat has a Greek goddess as a patron. NO ONE MUST KNOW! Adam Bishop 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I find this factoid too trivial for inclusion. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, since this is encyclopedic and no valid reason has been given by any of the editors opposed to inclusion, this is going to rfd now, so even more people will hear of this. Fraternities may do a lot of things that they try to cover up, but if it can be verified, it is encyclopedic and 100% relevant to this article. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I find the idea that there is a plot to "cover up" this particular fact quite hilarious, really. Almost to the point that I am tempted to say that yes, indeed my plan for world dominination dictates that nobody shall know that that fraternity has elected Athena as a patron goddess. Instead, I might more simply point that, as you seem to suggest on your edits summaries, said fraternity is not a religious cult worshipping Athena; it is a university fraternity, and just like many others it chooes Greek names and characterists as points of style. --Nehwyn 16:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you say you are not trying to suppress this information, why then do you object so much to its inclusion? It's pretty easy to demonstrate its relevance and encyclopedicity, so what is it really? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * My explanation above is all I can offer on this matter (the serious part, I mean); as for your proposal to put this to RfD, I'm not sure that Redirects for Discussion is the appropriate place. --Nehwyn 16:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This is too trivial to be included. It's not encyclopedic to turn the "In post-classical culture" section into a list of factoids. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, make that RFC. We'll see if any other editors from RFC think this is "encyclopedic" or not. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

RFC Response Trivia (an essay that may become a guideline) tells us that we should only mention things that are encyclopedic (assumed by the entire page), interesting, and important. To whom is it important that the goddess is the patron goddess for the fraternity? To whom is it interesting? The proposed edit here is not cited. In our article on the fraternity, the factoid is cited only to the fraternity's website. Absent any evidence that anyone outside the fraternity has discussed this in a reliable source, I conclude that it is only important and interesting to the fraternity, and should only be mentioned on their article, not here. GRBerry 17:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Seconded. I'd go farther: I'd want an outside citation of this fact to happen in the midst of some text about Athena, not about the fraternity. Like other commenters, I don't think the fact that this (itself noteworthy, I guess) frat has Athena for a mascot is relevant to the subject of Athena. I dare say there are any number of noteworthy buildings, for a semiparallel example, that have statues of Athena out front; I wouldn't expect to see them mentioned here. And . . . dude, as far as I can make out, fraternities have rites and rituals and icons that are meant to be about mystique-building and shared weirdness and, I dare say, tongue-in-cheekness. If the goddess were to turn out to be (a) real and (b) propitiated by the Phi Delts' activities, I imagine said Phi Delts would be astonished. Iralith 20:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Not noteworthy. Goldfritha 21:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, it is too trivial to be included. I agree with GRBerry's comments above: Absent any evidence that anyone outside the fraternity has discussed this in a reliable source, I conclude that it is only important and interesting to the fraternity, and should only be mentioned on their article, not here.HeBhagawan 04:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * At best it is trivia, but it is so obscure that I can't think it would be interesting to anybody except the "frat" involved. This is the quality of information that clouds worthwhile information and leads WIKI down the path of being an encyclopedia fit only for those who read "People" and "National Enquirer" when no one is looking.  Spare us; delete all trivia from serious articles.  Storm Rider (talk) 06:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Relevance is not automatically a two-way street. It adds to an understanding of Phi Delta Theta fraternity lore to know who Athena is. Athena is relevant. It does not add to an understanding of Athena to hear that she is a fraternity mascot. This is not really very hard to understand... --Wetman 06:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Erichthononious
Could someone verify this please? I don't ever remember reading about Athena ever being raped, or having a child (son I'm guessing?). Since he doesn't have his own page, or is mentioned on any other page (at least according to the search engine on wikipedia), I don't trust the information is true, but then there are many versions of the myths out there, I didn't cut the information from the article. But if anyone has heard of Erichthononious (google just gives the Athena page on wikipedia and someone's blog) and could clarify his myth or if it's a mispelling, I'd appriciate it. If someone doesn't (within a week I guess? or maybe a bit longer since there doesn't seem to be much activity here), then I'll probably cut it. Irish♣Pearl 23:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's spelled "Erichthonius". Or "Erichthonios", or "Erikhthonios". --Akhilleus (talk) 00:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I had not heard of Erichthonius before, but thank you for clearing that up (and sorry for not starting at the bottom)!

Irish♣Pearl 00:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Text from Pallas article
I'm doing a clean-up on the Pallas article, moving the text to the appropriate articles and turning it into a disambiguation page. There is a part that would go here, however it looks like this page already covers the story behind Athena's Pallas epithet pretty well. Here is the text in case anyone wants to incorprorate any of it here:
 * Pallas, epithet for Athena. According to some sources, Pallas was the playmate of Athena, a daughter of the god Triton (or Tritonis), her foster-father. One day, while Pallas and Athena were sparring, Zeus appeared between them with the aegis and Pallas, in her fear, forgot to parry a blow from Athena. She was killed and Athena mourned her by becoming "Pallas Athena". She also carved from a tree trunk a statue of Pallas, the Palladium, which she left with Zeus. Later Electra, whom Zeus seduced, took refuge behind this palladium; Zeus tossed it away and it fell on the land of Ilium (Troy), where Ilus had a temple built for it. Other sources claim that Pallas was an older local god conflated with Athena by the Athenians.

- Ravenous 21:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Sea eagle
Is it possible to say more exactly the form of which species of Sea eagle (bird) did Athena assume in Book 3 of Odyssey? --Eleassar my talk 07:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, unless there is distinctly only one species of sea-eagle in the Aegean and Anatolia. Otherwise, any suggestion in this direction will be speculation. Readings can never be more specific than the text: Homer says haliaetos. --Wetman 09:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"Family" relationships
I adjusted this new section before we all run away with the idea, and the reader is told that, in addition to Poseidon being her "uncle", Aphrodite is Athena's great-aunt and Triton her first cousin. Along this line, Eros would be her first cousin once removed... --Wetman 00:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Real sources needed
I just did some editing to the lead... this article has real problems.

For instance, the lead claims outright that there is evidence that Athena was originally an owl or bird goddess, but it didn;t say who made these claims (can't just say there IS evidence, need to say who claims that, per WP:NPOV). It also made the radical conclusion that the aegis was originally wings, which, again, needs to be cited to somebody and not just claimed, and the page that WAS cited was a website by someone with no creentials to be saying anything, just some minor thrown together site with very little real info, certainly not the kind of source that should be cited. Plus the article comes out and says that Athena probably was a prehistoric goddess, agains never said who said that, and thn the footnote that was there didn;t lead to an actual source at all, just somebody's additional comment.

And that was just one paragraph. Claims about theories need to: 1) be cited as a theory and not "probable" or outright fact, 2) specifically mention who made the claim (and it must be someone who is a reliable source) and 3) refer back to a verifiable, scholarly source that shows outright that that person made that claim.

And additionally: 4) Also cite other sources with contrary theories should also be included when at all possible. DreamGuy 03:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup template
This article needs rewriting. It is difficult to read and hard to follow many of the sentences.Markisgreen 17:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Restoring the damage
This was a great, though unintended discourtesy. User:Americist has innocently discarded a great many nuanced and thoughtful statements that were obscure too him and at times replaced them with middle-school inanities: thus he writes, "He challenged Metis to a playful shape-shifting game. They transformed themselves into many creatures, big and small. When Metis took the form of a fly, Zeus caught her in his mouth and swallowed her." This has replaced footnoted text that stuck close to the wording of myths in Hesiod et al., with footnotes. This is one of many steps backwards. Perhaps Americist will tell us where Metis swallowed in the form of a fly comes from.

I shall work with the framework that Americist has established and begin restoring some of the lost information. I have restored a nuanced opening 3-paragraph summary: in long Wikipedia articles, all the essentials need to be stated or referred to once, up-front. I shall work my way down the article, As I find time and patience. --Wetman 08:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me first say that I regret this discourtesy, and that I appreciate it being recognized as unintended. I gave each change I made careful review, in the full knowledge that any of them might suppress or subvert some element of the article whose validity or importance was — as you say — obscure to me. In fact, there were elements whose validity and importance were so obscure to me that I tried to worked around them.


 * And I confess I did not spend time tracing the article's problems through the article's own history, though I knew that might clarify some things. Instead I sought a balance between the detailed variations and ambiguities of the source material on the one hand, and a degree of concision and clarity in the article on the other hand. I favored statements with references over those without, and where different statements expressed the same element but none was provided a reference I favored the one (or those parts of each) which seemed to me the best written. But I tried to find a place for all the elements present in the article.


 * With regard to Metis Swallowed in the Form of a Fly, this was already in the article (the emphases are my addition):


 * Hesiod's Theogony gives the following account of Athena's birth: Metis, the titaness of prudence, was Zeus' first wife. It was fated that if she had a son he would be able to rule the gods. Zeus, fearing that his son would overthrow him as Zeus had done to Cronus, tricked Metis and swallowed her. He ingested her and therefore her wisdom so that she might advise him in matters. However, the immortal child Metis was pregnant with was not harmed. Zeus then began getting terrible headaches and he smashed his head on a rock and Athena was born grown up and in full armor. Hera was so annoyed at this that she gave birth to Hephaestus by herself. The son was never born and Zeus stayed as supreme ruler of Mount Olympus.


 * A fuller version says: Zeus lay with Metis, the goddess of crafty thought, but immediately feared the consequences. It had been prophesied that Metis would bear children more powerful than the father, and this includes even Zeus himself. In order to forestall these dire consequences, Zeus played a game with Metis. She transformed into many creatures, big and small. When Metis transformed into a fly, Zeus swallowed her immediately after lying with her. He was too late: Metis was already pregnant. Metis immediately began making a helmet and robe for her fetal daughter. The hammering as she made the helmet caused Zeus great pain and Hephaestus cut open Zeus's skull with the double-headed Minoan axe (labrys). Athena leaped from Zeus's skull, fully grown and armed, and Zeus was none the worse for the experience. This is the most common version of her birth.


 * Aside from Hesiod's account given above, there is another version of her birth of Pelasgian origin [....]


 * A full analysis of the problems in this passage would be fairly lengthy. But the first paragraph is attributed to the Theogony without a direct reference. The second paragraph has no explicit attribution, though it labels itself a "fuller" and "the most common" version. Its only extra details involve the nature of Zeus' trick and the cause of his subsequent headaches. The other differences are not fuller details, but alternatives.


 * The last paragraph begins by referring to "Hesiod's account given above". Did that step over the immediately preceding paragraph to the one attributed to Hesiod, or were both of the preceding paragraphs being attributed to Hesiod? Knowing how much the ancient poets told their stories in allusions and asides, the latter interpretation seemed as plausible as any other. (That last paragraph goes on to refer to "Pelasgian" versions of Athena's birth, without offering any explanation of what Pelasgian might signify, to say nothing of an explanation as to how a myth can be attributed to a people themselves arguably mythological. But that's another issue.)


 * The fly motif is present in other articles, including Metis (mythology). I looked around the 'net for a source to cite, but didn't find any — though the fly motif is well-represented. As with some other elements lacking references, I found a place for this one, trusting that eventually a source would be found or consensus would be established that the motif is too late to be included here.


 * Otherwise… I did crunch the opening summary rather severely, for two reasons. First, as it stood the details it included seemed problematic. They seemed to lack something in inherent organization, which lent them an appearance of having been selected somewhat at random. Some were duplicated or contradicted later in the article. Second, the sheer length of the summary pushed the table of contents rather far down into the article — though that may have been merely an artifact of my display. But it was actually not clear to me at first that there was a table of contents, and that the summary was not the article itself.


 * If it would help shorten the summary — assuming that has any appeal — I'm actually inclined to move the section describing Athena's cult character above her mythography. The former, after all, is the real source material, and a good portion of the latter is as much an attempt to interpret that material as is more recent analysis.


 * Anyway, no one needs my permission, but let me convey my encouragement — for what it's worth — to restore and to add any nuances now missing. Likewise the structure of the article. I take the retention of my suggestions in that regard to represent some appreciation for their value, but I hardly expect to discover them incapable of improvement. —Americist 23:28, 14 May 2007 (UT

Athena not virgin, but self-created
My understanding is that the epitheth on Athena as Parthogenos was not that she was a virgin, but that she was already existing. This might refer to long lost memories of the invasion of Zeus's tribes in to greece, and Athena being one of the indigent population. Not part of the invasion, and not being an offspring of Zeus.


 * Um, you might want to read the article before posting things like this; your information is incorrect. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Goddess of strategy
I was in the belief that the goddess athena was not only the goddess of wisdom but also the goddess of strategy which would make sense since in most photos you see of her she is not standing on the battlefield but near it as if a signal that she was controling the battle not fighting in it.


 * Strategy was one of Athena's attributes. Her use of wisdom to avoid actual battle was one of her strengths.  Modern interpretation and allegory has accented this.  As the article says, Athena had attributes over time and depending on who was speaking.

Saltysailor (talk) 15:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)  an Athenian

Athena and Athene
The text seems to switch back and forth between Athena and Athene. Is there really no distinction between these? We should probably choose one and stick to it except for a comment explaining alternate names. Or if there's a distinction explain it and perhaps separate the two into two sections or pages.

62.232.55.118 (talk) 14:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Athene" is perhaps a more accurate representation form of the Ionic Greek form of her name, but "Athena" is by far the most common form in English, and the article should be consistent about using it. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The Citizens of Which
I would normally make such a minor edit myself, but it doesn't look like I can for this artcle. In intro paragraph, someone has written, "She is the virgin patron of Athens, which built the Parthenon to worship her". This seems to imply that the inanimate city of Athens built the Parthenon. It would be much more correct to insert some reference to the citizens of Athens into that sentence so that they can do the building. -75.157.198.121 (talk) 18:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Why don't you create an account? You will be able to do this edits then ... Miguel.mateo (talk) 03:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"Goddess of Heroic Endeavour"?
This is a highly misleading and strange sentence in the first paragraph. She was a goddess of wisdom, defensive war, and crafts, and a patron of heroes, but it is highly misleading to solely state she is the goddess of heroic endeavours. I have an account but it won't let me edit the dratted sentence. Anyway, any opinions on this?

Wisewillow (talk) 04:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)WiseWillow


 * I'll tell you what is even stranger..."heroic" and "endeavour" are pointlessly linked to disambiguation pages. "Heroic" needs to link to hero and "endeavour" is a dicdef that doesn't need to be linked at all. Why don't I change it myself...because this article is pointlessly protected. 141.151.2.144 (talk) 23:59, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Adding a section 2.9
Add following Roman fable of Arachne

Reformed Church of Athena

The Reformed Church of Athena is a small, American-based religious group. They worship Athena as their only deity, and believe that she gave humanity coffee and rock & roll. Unlike most religions, they have few rules for their followers. It was founded in the Summer of 2008.

Source: AthenaChurch.org

Ashumaloz (talk) 17:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This type of info does not go in that section. Leujohn  ( talk ) 09:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Arachne was important. That story was one of the most famous one. It's where the word ''arachid"? (spider) comes from. ~ Rhana ~ {♦} talk page 21:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup request
The Cults and Epithets sections have become jumbled together. Also, there are a few untranslated/untransliterated names among the epithets. These are useless to speakers of English. Krychek (talk) 03:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:2005 Austria 10 Euro 60 Years Second Republic front.jpg
The image File:2005 Austria 10 Euro 60 Years Second Republic front.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --02:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I see this paragraph: - " Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here Insert non-formatted text here        - in the article section. (I believe some error has been made while editting the article, before it was locked...) May someone please fix the problem? Thanks, 79.178.115.138 (talk) 11:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Add Polis to infobox
editsemiprotected

I suggest we add Athens under the title.

Polis = Athens

In the Greek Infobox, anyone disagree? Calamitas-92 (talk) 09:59, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done —Ms2ger (talk) 17:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

O'DOYLES RULE!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.236.98 (talk) 01:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

i wanted to noe wen was athena born —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.236.252.246 (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

-_- No one knows when Athena was born. ~ Rhana ~ {♦} talk page 21:32, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Athena = Demeter? = Danae?
Ada/Da = "mother", "mother goddess" (in Luwian)

Demeter: <Da-meter ("meter" also means "mother" in Greek)

Athena: <Athana (in Doric) < Adana <Ada-na  /-na ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)

Danae: <Da-na (similar name like Athena!) Danae was not a goddess. She was the mother of Perseus.

more:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luwian_language#Luwian_Gods_and_Goddesses Böri (talk) 10:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Athena in Popular Culture?
I was wondering what the caretakers of this article think about adding a section about Athena in popular culture. She has played a big role in Marvel Comics' "The Incredible Hercules" on-going series. She is also apparently the mother (?!) of one of the main characters in the "Percy Jackson & the Olympians" book series by Rick Riordan. Spekkio (talk) 15:57, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The story of how Athena was born
Athena was born from her father, Zeus. Zeus was having massive forehead opening headachs, so what they did to see what is wrong is they split his forehead open.Then out came Athena fuller dressed/growed. It is known that this happened because Zeus had swallowed Athena's mother,Metis, while she was pregnant with Athena. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.97.45.12 (talk) 23:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

athena was the goddess of wisdom born from her fathers forehead —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.196.62.115 (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Athena's reaction to Ajax's crime in her temple
It would be productive to include, perhaps under the palladium section, a brief account along the lines of:

After the Trojan war was over, Ajax the lesser attacked the priestess Cassandra in Athena's temple, dragging her off the altar as she prayed to the goddess and clung onto a wooden statue of Athena. Because of this, Athena was furious with the Greeks, and sent a wave to drown Ajax. Macdicilla (talk) 23:06, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Owl as Athena's symbol
Does anyone know when Athena was described as having the owl as her bird? If so, then this needs to be included with an explaination for why it is one of her symbols. Thanks 78.146.132.102 Classics (talk) 08:33, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 December 2011
Hello, I noticed what I believe to be an error in the article pertaining to the Goddess Athena.

In the first line of the "Mythology - Birth - Olympian Version" section, there is reference to "...Mycenean Knossos...". Knossos was in fact on the island of Crete and therefore Minoan, predating the Myceneans who appeared later on the mainland.

Thanks.

Polyester74 (talk) 23:17, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Mycenean times-era,linear b...???? ;-)
 * Thanatos|talk 01:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I sort of understand, so I removed the word "Mycenean" from that sentence. Note, "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".  Chzz  ► 09:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Polyester's request was a good question, but mistaken, and Thanatos' reply was almost completely useless. Of course what Thanatos meant was that there was a Mycenaean presence on Crete after the collapse of the Minoans, and the reference to Athena comes from the Mycenaean period. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

vandalism revert: unregistered IP had removed a section; reverted — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fraulein451 (talk • contribs) 03:41, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Athena Always Votes to Pardon
In studying the Trial of Socrates, Philosophy students learn that Athena always votes to Pardon. I think this is a cool fact, and worth mentioning, but don't see it on the page. Did I just miss something? Daniel J. Hakimi (talk) 22:01, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

"Name, etymology, and origin", section needs more information!
In your opening section the word "athenai" is mentioned in the last paragraph, and is translated as "many!" But it seems that for some reason, the scholars who have worked on this site, have either disregarded other variations of the word "Athens", or maybe even don't know of it! That is, their appears to be an Italian version of the word, spelled as "Setines!!" The source of this can be found here; http://books.google.com/books?id=7knSBqbjMl4C&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=franks+in+the+levant&source=web&ots=PtRgC-k5gp&sig=UZC0SzB1gYFgx77qa-nCYOTnGpI&hl=en&ei=jtGRSefVFdCCtwf_lKTXCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

Your response will be appreciated! 96.19.147.40 (talk) 20:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Ronald L.Hughes

Origins-War goddess
"On a plaster tablet in Mycenae, there are two women stretching their hands towards a figure covered by a figure eight shield. The figure is probably a female divinity, and the armed goddess could be Athena, or her palladium. It seems that the war goddess was a Mycenean creation" ( George Mylonas (1966) " Mycenae and the Mycenaean World", Princeton University Press, pp. 156,160 ) This paragraph could be probably added to the section "Etymology-Origins." jest 15:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Anat-Athena
In a Cyprian inscription (KAI. 42) the Greek goddess Athêna Sôteira Nikê is equated with ‘Anat (who is described in the inscription as the strength of life : l‘uzza hayim). (Retrieved from the article Anat) It seems that there is a connection, but the source is not mentioned. 130.43.4.242 (talk) 18:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Greek myths
I say you should mention something about the Percy Jackson books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.31.126 (talk) 18:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

This needs citation
"archaic myths about her were recast to adapt to cultural changes"

Which myths? Give examples and citations, because right now it's so vague. 169.232.118.221 (talk) 00:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Post-classical culture
I'm not a historian. I have an interest in history, and in popular culture. I think it worth mentioning (in the post-classical culture section) that André Citroën named the top line of his DS models (pronounced Déesse in French, for Goddess) Pallas. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS. If no one objects, I'll mention it. --Don B. Cilly (talk) 02:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The Meaning of Pallas
The word palla is from the language TAMIL. The people who lived in low land(PALLAM in tamil) like riverbed called themselves as PALLAR. They are the originators of first most civilization of the world. This people are belongs to the empire of PANDIAS who ruled the Greek in ancient times. The descendants of these people are now becoming Greeks. The name Athena is originated from the tamil name Aathini(first women) Athini >> Atheni>> Athena.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.99.194.157 (talk) 15:41, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Medusa and Ovid
I know we are talking about multiple versions of the same story told by multiple authors, but of all the explanations as to how Medusa came to be I've never understood why Ovid has Athene first curse Medusa for getting raped by Poseidon in her temple, then plot to have her murdered with the help of Perseus. According to David Leeming (2013) the god of the sea and Medusa were lovers and "according to Hesiod ... they lay in a beautiful meadow on a bed of flowers." (page 12) It was only in the Roman telling of the story that the act became (for reasons that are unclear) a temple rape. I know this is speculation, but was Medusa's curse a result of the rivalry between Poseidon and Athene for the city Athens? (I ask the question here because I am hoping some editor might have access to a text that I don't) Or are there other examples of Athene cursing rape victims? All my sources for Athene's vindictiveness are vague and it seems oddly out of place considering that she's the goddess of wisdom, courage and civilization. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 14:44, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Athena. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080817100824/http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/Winged_Athena.jpg to http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/Winged_Athena.jpg

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 18:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)