Talk:Athenian Band Cup by the Oakeshott Painter (MET 17.230.5)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2017 and 3 January 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): KDavisArt.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Original author's notes
Hello! I created this article for my class assignment. Here are future edits I intend to make. I am planning a draft in my Sandbox. KDavisArt (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

-Current references- Journal: Robin Osborne, "Marketing an Image," from Archaic Classical Greek Art, pg. 87-166 >>I plan to add more information to the description from this source. >>I also need to research the sources left by my professor.

-Images- Cropped picture showing single Satyr KDavisArt (talk) 17:25, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

I recently finished this article for the semester. Thank-you for checking it out. Of course, with any article, if any information I left out is found, please do include it. And my wording may be odd, so please feel free to edit my words on the article for ease of clarity. Lastly, there are some sources I did not check from the MET Publications page because they were expensive to read, so if this topic interests you and you have the money, please read into that and include any relevant information. Thank-you. KDavisArt (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Help from Instructor
Hi K,

I'm glad you've taken on the task of starting your own page! Make sure you follow the formatting that is on pg. 7 of the "Editing Wikipedia" booklet. You will want to make sure that you have a lead section and perhaps an infobox. Make sure that if you use images from the Met, that they are freely licensed images (we will talk about this later on in the semester). I looked at the entry for this work of art on the Met's website and they had a pretty good list of sources. I've copied and pasted them below. Also, for today's assignment, make sure that you attempt a citation!

BRichter, Gisela M. A. 1953. Corpus Vasorum Antiquorum. United States of America 11. The Metropolitan Museum of Art 2. Attic Black-Figured Kylikes. pl. XIX, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

Richter, Gisela M. A. 1953. Handbook of the Greek Collection. pp. 60, 202, pl. 42a, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press.

Beazley, John D. 1971. Paralipomena: Additions to Attic Black-Figure Vase-Painters and to Attic Red-Figure Vase-Painters [2nd edition]. p. 78, Oxford: Clarendon Press.

Beazley, John D. 1986[1951]. The Development of Attic Black Figure, Sather Classical Lectures, Vol. 24, 2nd edn. pp. 51, 101, n. 36, pl. 48, 1-2, University of California: University of California Press.

Kossatz-Deissmann, Anneliese, Brigitte Servais-Soyez, Fulvio Canciani, Giovannangelo Camporeale, Hans Peter Isler, Ingrid Krauskopf, Odette Touchefeu-Meynier, Marcel Le Glay, and Dr. Jean-Charles Balty. 1988. Lexicon Iconographicum Mythologiae Classicae, Vol. 4: Eros-Herakles. Hephaistos, no. 139a, Zürich: Artemis Verlag Zurich und Munchen.

Mackay, Anne. 2001. "The Frontal Face and ‘You’. Narrative Disjunction in Early Greek Poetry and Painting." Acta Classica. Proceedings of the Classical Association of South Africa, 44: p. 25 n. 39.

Picón, Carlos A. 2007. Art of the Classical World in the Metropolitan Museum of Art: Greece, Cyprus, Etruria, Rome no. 87, pp. 85, 422, New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Moore, Mary B. 2010. "Hephaistos Goes Home: An Attic Black-figured Column-krater in the Metropolitan Museum." Metropolitan Museum Journal, 45: p. 26, fig. 8.

Rmmiller364 (talk) 17:41, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Rmmiller364, but giving some literature can't be the correct way. You can not simply write about ancient pottery without knowing at least a bit about this. And as mentor you can't let there come big mistakes and not fix them. The Oakshot Painter was not very prolific. We know actually 5 pieces by him. And a band cup is a form o the kylix. Those istakes can't stay for longer. Marcus Cyron (talk) 16:56, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your feedback, Marcus Cyron, but I am requesting that you be more polite in your comments to myself and to my student. This is a learning project, supported by the Wikipedia Education Foundation. You wrote that a band cup is the same as a kylix. Yes, that is true, and my student originally put both terms, using the word "or" to state that you can use either. You can see that on Wikipedia, band cup and kylix have separate articles and the student was providing links to both. I will edit the first line to clarify. Rmmiller364 (talk) 20:04, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Title
I can't find any sources referring to this as the "Ariadne and Hephaistos with Dionysos Cup". If this is a notable object discussed in-depth in multiple sources I'd expect it to have a common name we could use for the title?--Pontificalibus (talk) 14:31, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You will have problems to find individual names for ancient vases. Some have, as the Dipylon Amphora, the Berlin Foundry Cup, the Arkesilas Cup, the Chigi vase, the Burgon vase, the Warrior Vase or, most famous, the François Vase. For all the others - they all are individuall pice of art eg. craftmanship - you need to help yourself. What you need is a working system, that you don't give different kind of names. I've done it for my articles in german Wikipedia in this form: Neck Amphora by Exekias (Berlin F 1720), Oinochoe by the Shuvalov Painter (Berlin F2414) or Belly Amphora by the Andokides Painter (Munich 2301). Marcus Cyron (talk) 16:53, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Robin Osborne refers to it as "Athenian band cup attributed to the Oakeshott Painter." It doesn't have a nickname, which is common for a lot of Greek pottery, but I don't think that means it's not significant. Osborne dedicates a lengthy discussion to the cup and the Met lists a lot of sources that address the cup (see above). Perhaps "Athenian Band Cup (Oakeshott Painter)". Would be a better title? Rmmiller364 (talk) 17:22, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Every ancient painted vase is of significace. But your idea is not really good, because the Oakeshott Painter only painted Littlemaster cups. Band- and lip cups. And at least the Frankfurt fragment (see Oakeshott-Maler) is also an band cup. So Athenian Band Cup by the Oakeshott Painter (MET 17.230.5) should be the preffered solution. But at the end, this not article is in the actual form completely useless. Even the discription on Commons prefer more informations than this pseudo article. No reader can learn anything here. Marcus Cyron (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Marcus Cyron, Thank you for your solution regarding the title of the article. Yes, I realize that this article is incomplete. It is not my student's intention to leave this page in its current form. This is a semester-long project that the student is putting a lot of effort into researching. At the moment, we just wanted to create a stub article as they continue with their project. Please have a little bit more patience as this article is developed. Rmmiller364 (talk) 19:57, 6 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi guys- an option here would be to move this page to the student's draftspace so they can work on it for the time being if there's enough concern. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 20:26, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Another good option would be for the students first create a page for the potter himself (in their sandbox) that contains a list of his known creations and a list of ones that are strongly believed to be his by reliable sources. It doesn't look like he has a page and he would likely warrant one of his own. This way if there isn't much out there about this artwork then we would have a way to summarize it somewhere. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 20:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Peer Feedback
Hi K, You’ve got a good start on your Wiki article. The basic description is off to a good start, I’m sure you’re going to add information to it, just keep in mind when someone Wikipedia’s something they tend to want to get the basic jest of the thing quickly. That is what your basic description should reflect. Then use the following headlines to get into greater detail about the object. That being said, the description is off to a great start as well. I like that you have described the type of cup it is, what it was used for and have described the iconography. It looks like you also have some good sources including some that Professor Miller gave you on your talk page. I would advise using those for some more in-depth details on maybe where the item was discovered, the process of making the cup, and the iconography. Those are all things I would like to read in this Wikipedia article. Good luck, let me know if you would like me to look over any writing you have done, I would be happy to help edit! Thanks, Rachel Marthaler.--R.Marthaler (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)