Talk:Athens Riviera/Archive 1

Climate
Lets continue the debate here, so other users can join the discussion. First of all no need for the Köppen references, as they are already referenced on the main classification article. What I was saying yesterday was we can't estimate an entire region with one weather station at hand, therefore it should only apply to Elliniko. Since the figure is very borderline, it is possible every locale can go in and out of their respective thresholds. Berkserker (talk) 05:45, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * No,I disagree about the Koppen references since the maps show clearly that the whole of South Attica is under BSh climate.If you have long term meteorological data of an official station from the area between Faliro and Sounio that verifies that it does dip below the threshold I would be inclined to accept an edit that suggests this.Weatherextremes (talk) 05:56, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Maps are inaccurate, as a climate enthusiast you should know that. Maps are an end product, not a source. They are a rough vectorisation of the nearby stations. On maps you can find all sorts of absurdities. This is why most maps don't even match one another. In order to declare an entire region as BSh you need station data from all across the region. Otherwise it will be misleading and unscientific. Berkserker (talk) 07:03, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Just realised you said "that verifies that it does dip below the threshold". Elliniko is already below the threshold by 5mm. If you look at close by stations you will see that annual precipitation varies 40 mm within a few miles, therefore it is almost impossible to estimate which towns/districts on the Riviera are below or above the threshold. As the mean temps are between 18.3-18.6 C the threshold will vary between 366-372 mm, thus we are talking about 1-2 mm of rain affecting the classification. We need data from each locale in order to determine accurately. At the moment, with the given data from a single station we can say the climate of the region is borderline Csa and BSh at best. In order to understand climates one needs to look at a region as a whole, as well as its vegetation. Berkserker (talk) 07:25, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Actually its not only the Elliniko station with a BSh climate.Also the Piraeus HNMS station next to Faliro shows a BSh climate.Knowing the area very well I am persuaded that South Attica is BSh and a lot of Athenians meteo ethousiasts and Greek meteorologists I reckon that would agree with me. Additionally if your Greek is good enough check Mamara et al 2015  , page 83 that mentions:

''Το κλίμα τύπου Β, δηλαδή ξηρό κλίμα, καλύπτει μόνο μια μικρή επιφάνεια της χώρας. Ο κλιματικός τύπος BSk, δηλαδή ξηρό κλίμα ψυχρής στέπας, απαντάται σε περιοχές της Βόρειας και Ανατολικής Θεσσαλίας (Λάρισα) και της Κεντρικής Μακεδονίας (Πιερία, Θεσσαλονίκη, δυτική Χαλκιδική), ενώ ο τύπος BSh, δηλαδή ξηρό κλίμα θερμής στέπας, απαντάται στην νότια Αττική και στις Κυκλάδες ''

The extract in the bold would translate as the BSh type, hot semi-arid steppe climate is to be found in South Attica

Also on page 172 it reads:

Η Θεσσαλονίκη και η Λάρισα, ανήκουν στον τύπο κλίματος BSk, δηλαδή έχουν ξηρό και ψυχρό κλίμα στέπας, ενώ ο σταθμός του Πειραιά ανήκει στον τύπο BSh, παρουσιάζει δηλαδή ξηρό και θερμό κλίμα στέπας

This would translate as the Piraeus station belongs to BSh type, semi-arid hot steppe climate.

So I will be adding this reference as well.Both to Greek and English version of the article.Btw it's a fascinating read!Weatherextremes (talk) 07:39, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Sure, it must be a fascinating read and a great insight on the climate of the region. Also I am sure Greek meteorologists and enthusiasts agree that the climate of the Riviera is distinguishable from the rest of the region. However as Wikipedia editors we have a responsibility to maintain consistency between articles, therefore we need to apply the same international standards to all country specific articles. For instance Spanish sources show a great deviation from these standards, classifying Csa and BSk regions as continental, also classifying BSk regions as Csa, etc. This has been a subject of debate on Wikipedia for a long time, as Spaniards literally fight over their country standards to prove themselves right. I am not saying this is the case here. Just saying we need to be careful when applying these standards. Therefore instead of finding citations that show climate classifications for a region, we need to find station data and compare them to the Köppen guidelines so that there is a linear as well as a parallel consistency between articles. This is why I need your help in finding credible station data for the region as most of the sources are probably in Greek, so it is impossible for me to find these sources. Berkserker (talk) 08:00, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Well the Piraeus HNMS station (worked between 1956 and 2004) does show from the data at hand according to Mamara et al 2015 that there is a BSh climate.So we already have two official stations falling in BSh climate from the long term stats.Also the means temps for Elliniko are not between 18.3 and 18.6.The mean annual temp is exact according to the HNMS and it is 18.5C so officially its BSh climate.Here is the Piraeus station on the records of HNMS .Weatherextremes (talk) 08:10, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Never said Elliniko is between 18.3 and 18.6 C, Elliniko is exactly 18.49 C, the range I provided was an educated guess for the entire Riviera that lies NW to SE as well as a few hundred yards inland. For the exact data, we need weather station data. As for the link you sent, I can only see a list of stations but not their data. If we can access those stations it would be really informative. Anything above 18 C is an h not k, however the figure affects the precipitation threshold since the mean is multiplied by 20 to figure out the threshold. I can only access secondary or tertiary sources, which aren't reliable most of the time. Unfortunately these secondary and tertiary sources are the only ones available in English. For instance climate-data.org, which is very dubious at times, as they never cite their sources. However for brainstorming here are some examples of the Riviera from that site.         (1 km inland)  (a few hundred meters to the NW of the Riviera). This list goes on, however like I said this site isn't very reliable, therefore we need official station data. These links at least show you what I meant by slight changes in mean temp and precipitation affecting a given locale's classification below or above the threshold, thus making the region borderline due to the effect of mere decimals on the climate categorisation. Can you access those HNMS stations in Greek? Berkserker (talk) 10:03, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

I have no idea which most of these stations are but they are not official HNMS stations with at least 30 year means and yes these data seem dubious.Now regarding Piraeus HNMS one can buy the data from HNMS for a few euros however this in not a problem since Dr. Mamara (who btw works in HNMS) uses only the HNMS data for her thesis and she informs us that Piraeus HNMS station is also BSh.From the HNMS list I sent the only official meteorological stations in the Riviera with at least 30 years of means are Elliniko and Piraeus.So probably this why all the maps under Koppen and the bibliography in Greece suggest the area is BSh.Weatherextremes (talk) 11:48, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Also an interesting point about vegetation you made earlier.For those of us who are pretty familiar with the area it is obvious that pretty much the whole of south Athens and Attica have a very pronounced semi-arid like vegetation.Basically apart from tourist areas of south Athens with artificial vegetation a lot of the scenery has very different vegetation compared to the rest of Athens.For example if you were to compare the vegetation in let's say north of Agia Paraskeui with the vegetation around Sounio,Lavrio and so on then you could tell that we are talking about a more arid area.Weatherextremes (talk) 11:58, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * You are right, the vegetation is considerably different, but do you think it is typical of the BSh climate, lets say similar that of northern Iraq? Berkserker (talk) 16:21, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I think we got lost a bit in the details here. Obviously we both like analysing climate data and share the same enthusiasm for the topic. However I want to bring us back to the main issue. Country-wise the precipitation and vegetation difference is apparent, however we need to look at it in a global perspective. As Dr. Mamara is writing about the climate of Greece, she uses up to the point phrasing underlining the contrast of climate and vegetation between different regions of Greece. However in a global point of view, still, the region is very borderline (only the top 2% of the BSh range in terms of precipitation). I propose rephrasing the sentence as following: "Under the Köppen climate classification, the Athens Riviera has a borderline hot semi-arid climate (BSh) with strong hot-summer Mediterranean climate (Csa) influences." This way it will not only categorise the mere 5 mm difference accurately, but will also cover the slight difference that is probable within the general Riviera region. This way it will eliminate the need to search further for more station data across the coastline, as this definition covers all. Berkserker (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Even a better phrasing would be saying "the region lies in the transition zone between .. and ..." Take NYC article as an example. There you can see what I'm talking about. Berkserker (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

I prefer the first one, however there should be a clear mention that both Elliniko and Piraeus fall officially in the BSh climate for more accuracy. So I propose  Under the Köppen climate classification, the Athens Riviera has a borderline hot semi-arid climate (BSh) with strong hot-summer Mediterranean climate (Csa'') influences. According to the data from the Hellenic National Meteorological Service Elliniko and Piraeus located in the Riviera fall in the hot semi-arid climate (BSh) classification."  Weatherextremes (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Additionally for Piraeus we don't know the exact precipitation and mean temperature so we can't be sure that the climate over there is borderline. Dr Mamara mentions that it is a clear BSh station.So in light of no evidence of a Csa climate from an official station within the Riviera I think the phrasing should reflect this more accurately. Weatherextremes (talk) 17:23, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Finally in terms of vegetation I am not familiar with the N.Iraq scenery what is clear however to any visitor is the fact that just south of downtown Athens the vegetation changes considerably. Weatherextremes (talk) 17:35, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Isn't Piraeus technically outside of the Riviera? We also don't have official data from the rest of the Riviera, this is why the term borderline will cover anything just below or above the threshold. I believe we should also include the transition between Csa and BSh somewhere in that sentence because just a few miles N towards downtown, the precipitation is well in the Csa range (30-50 mm above threshold). So this transition is gradual towards the south to at least Elliniko. Regions to the S/SE of Elliniko we can only guess. It would also be cool to find some data from the nearby Cyclades islands, especially the first two off the peninsula. Because if I remember correctly the ones further off have more annual precipitation. Even having this discussion is a proof how borderline the region is. Berkserker (talk) 17:43, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

You know when I was creating the article I was in double mind as to which reference I should use about the administrative borders of the Riviera.Generally the whole of the Athenian coast for us the Athenians is considered the Riviera,this obviously includes Piraeus.Here is a source that includes Piraeus in the Riviera

Αθηναϊκής Ριβιέρας, που εκτείνεται από τον Πειραιά ως το Σούνιο.

This translates as Athens Riviera extends from Piraeus to Sounio Weatherextremes (talk) 17:51, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Also, I am not inclined to a sentence that has the word transition unless we have evidence that at least one official station falls within the Csa climate. Weatherextremes (talk) 17:57, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, I agree we need more data. What I meant by "lies in the transition zone" wasn't specifically about the Riviera being the transition zone itself, rather lying somewhere in the broader transition zone that includes the southern suburbs of Athens. Berkserker (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Ok I will make the edits then according to my last proposal which we agree on.I will also include Piraeus on the administrative borders by adding the last reference Weatherextremes (talk) 18:16, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * But please make sure you use a phrasing that states the precipitation is just under the threshold by 5 mm. so people understand the given stations are borderline as well. Berkserker (talk) 18:18, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Only Elliniko is borderline as far we know but still officially a BSh station.Piraeus on the other hand is a clear BSh one.So I think it would be too technical for lay people .Weatherextremes (talk) 18:22, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

So this is what I am proposing Under the Köppen climate classification, the Athens Riviera has a borderline hot semi-arid climate (BSh) with strong hot-summer Mediterranean climate (Csa) influences. According to the data from the Hellenic National Meteorological Service Elliniko and Piraeus located in the Riviera fall in the hot semi-arid climate (BSh) classification.Weatherextremes (talk) 18:23, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, I chose to write on your talk page since the climate of Syria and Iraq isn't directly related to our topic, so I didn't want to fill this page with loosely related information.


 * As for the article I propose a slight change to that version "Under the Köppen climate classification, the Athens Riviera has a borderline hot semi-arid climate (BSh) with strong hot-summer Mediterranean climate (Csa) influences, according to the official Hellenic National Meteorological Service data from the Elliniko and Piraeus stations which are located in the Riviera." Just deleted the last bit and put a comma in between. Berkserker (talk) 19:20, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Well factually Piraeus is not borderline and your version implies it is .It seems more accurate with the wording I am proposing. Elliniko's borderline character is covered in the beginning of my proposed version Weatherextremes (talk) 19:32, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I think it is near impossible Piraeus is not borderline. We just need the climate data to be sure if it is well in the BS range (some 20-30 mm below the threshold). As I stated above, Dr. Mamara's phrasing is to underline the precipitation difference of Piraeus compared to downtown Athens. Berkserker (talk) 19:40, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

No, because on page 172 she continues with the following:

'' Η Θεσσαλονίκη και η Λάρισα, ανήκουν στον τύπο κλίματος BSk, δηλαδή έχουν ξηρό και ψυχρό κλίμα στέπας, ενώ ο σταθμός του Πειραιά ανήκει στον τύπο BSh, παρουσιάζει δηλαδή ξηρό και θερμό κλίμα στέπας. Όσον αφορά τις ομογενοποιημένες τιμές μέσης θερμοκρασίας φαίνεται ότι ο σταθμός της Καβάλας αλλάζει τύπο κλίματος από CSa σε BSk, δηλαδή από εύκρατο σε ξηρό και ψυχρό κλίμα στέπας. Επίσης, οι σταθμοί του Ελληνικού και της Ελευσίνας είναι στο όριο της αλλαγής τύπου από CSa σε BSh, δηλαδή από εύκρατο κλίμα σε ξηρό και θερμό κλίμα στέπας''

I am not translating the first phrase in bold about Piraeus since I have already translated it before.She goes on however to say on the second phrase in bold Also the Elliniko and Elefsina stations are on the threshold of change from CSa to BSh, meaning from subtropical climate to semi-arid hot steppe climate. Btw Elefsina located outside the Riviera but still in West Attica is just  a few mm above the threshold.So as you can see Dr. Mamara makes a clear distinction between the areas in Greece that are clearly BSh or BSk and those on the threshold and Piraeus is a clear BSh according to the HNMS data that she is trying to homogenise in her doctoral thesis. If you are interested I can translate the whole paragraph above since it has some really interesting things on the areas with BSk climate in Greece as well.I don't mind doing the translation of the whole thing for you.Weatherextremes (talk) 19:58, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * On the threshold means right on the border. Regions north of the border/threshold would be borderline Csa while regions to the south would be borderline BSh. She talks about the exact line where the change occurs. She doesn't say anything about the rest of S Athens having a typical BSh climate. She just defines which districts the line passes through, which is very informative. This actually answers your transitional climate question, since she states Elliniko is transitional. The rest is simply borderline. A region may be kilometres away from the border but still can have borderline characteristics (apx 5-20 mm diff in this case). Berkserker (talk) 20:29, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

It states that it is on the border,thus borderline which we already know from the HNMS site data as well but always within the BSh climate.So given the fact that Piraeus is a clear BSh climate my wording seems more accurate.Unless off course we have data from an official station within the Riviera with a CSa climate then we can not speak of a transition.Knowing full well all the Attica HNMS stations,there is no other official station apart from Elliniko and Piraeus in the Riviera. If you take in account a) the HNMS site ref b)the Koppen maps ref c) Dr Mamara's thesis ref there is not a single reliable reference to show a CSa climate that would constitute a transition within the Riviera Weatherextremes (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Also Piraeus is north of Elliniko and it's clearly BSh.The paragraph does not say anything about districts in Athens.Nothing at all.It makes a distinction between the areas in the whole of Greece with a clear BSh/BSk climates and a borderline BSh/BSk climate.The whole of the paragraph examines/focuses only on the semi-arid climates in the whole of Greece. In the paragraphs before she does the same about other type of climates .S o here is the full exact translation for you so you can understand that she does not make a distinction between Athenian districts but rather paints a picture of the whole country.

Thessaloniki and Larisa, belong to climate type BSk, meaning cold semi-arid steppe climate ,while the station of Piraeus belongs to the type BSh, showing a hot semi-arid steppe climate.Regarding the homogenised mean temperatures it appears that the Kavala station changes from CSa to BSk, meaning from subtropical to cold semi-arid steppe climate.Also the Elliniko and Elefsina stations are on the border of change from CSa to BSh, meaning from subtropical climate to semi-arid hot steppe climate Weatherextremes (talk) 21:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the translation even though I had pretty much the same translation by the help of google translate. I know she doesn't go into those details, it was my interpretation of her brief description. As you can see she doesn't get into details much, just an overall description where the BSk (N Greece) and BSh (Attica) transitions occur. Also by "districts of Athens" I may have not used the best administrative terminology, as I had meant that for Elefsina, Piraeus and Elliniko, when forming that sentence about the southern districts of Athens or the city's coastal suburbs; which sounds better to an Athenian I don't know :). Also it is just common sense and climatological insight that the transition occurs gradually southward from downtown Athens, based on the data from the 3-4 stations we have. We have quite a couple of stations from the region, the areas in between can only be estimated. Actually thinking climates for regions around the world many times larger than Greece are estimated by only one or two stations hundreds if not thousands of kilometres away, we have quite a high cluster S of Athens to comprehend the region's climate without trouble. As for Elefsina, according to HNMS data, the town is 7.1 mm above the threshold. By saying "also the Elliniko and Elefsina stations are on the border of change from Csa to BSh", Dr. Mamara proves that my interpretation was actually accurate as one of the stations she mentions is 7.1 mm above the threshold, while the other one is 5.0 mm below the threshold. So basically Elefsina and Elliniko are transitional. Berkserker (talk) 04:51, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I can accept that Elliniko is borderline,this is obvious from the data ,however Piraeus is not and this is why it is inaccurate to characterise the whole of the Riviera as either borderline or transitional.Both stations are officially within the BSh climate and none officially within the Csa climate.For the time being I ll go ahead with some edits that I consider are more accurate. Weatherextremes (talk) 07:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * We need data in order say it clearly. With the given data at hand, we can say it is borderline at best. We don't have access to the Piraeus station either. I doubt it is much different than Elliniko. Therefore I think this wording is misleading. Berkserker (talk) 12:12, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I think your wording is the misleading one since from all the sources I have provided the area is described as BSh (pages 172 and 83 from Mamara 2015,the Koppen maps and the HNMS site) and Piraeus is clear BSh (Mamara 2015).Unless you can provide a reference that can refute this with official station data we are going to cyrcles and I will not accept any edit other than what I believe is the most accurate one Weatherextremes (talk) 12:47, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * So you declare yourself as the gatekeeper, is that so? I thought we were having a civilised conversation, but apparently it isn't the case. After all the discussion above you are back to square one with this last statement.. I guess you want read what you wish to see and ignore others. Ok, I should be more clear then. We are not going in cycles. You presented your points, I agreed to some, didn't agree to others, providing the necessary proof above an debunked it. She says the transition happens in Elefsina for instance, does it? According to your standards, no.. It is clearly 7.1 mm above the threshold and to you that is well within the range of a given climate. On the contrary, to me it's fine, I accept it is transitional. If I was to say that this climate is transitional you would have said no, thinking 7.1 mm is well within the range. You need to be consistent here as well and not change your point of view just because the climate is Csa instead of BSh. In my discussion I am always trying to maintain the consistency. Therefore I never questioned figures within the first 5% of both climate definitions. Therefore I am not questioning her credibility either, because I know all these descriptions are brief, and that probably the threshold goes somewhere through the Elefsina subdivision, at least closer to the Piraeus border. I also know any region +- to some extent of the threshold can be accepted as transitional, so again I didn't question the credibility of her statement. I am just applying her methods to the rest of the region. Her statements and my proposal for this article are consistent. They are also consistent with the rest of wikipedia. If I was having this conversation with her, it wouldn't take this long. But for some reason, you are just stuck in the notion of who is right and who is wrong. This isn't a contest, it is just our responsibility as editors to be transparent and objective, while maintaining the consistency between articles. Since other climate sections on Wikipedia use these guidelines, we have the responsibility to make this article consistent with the rest of the encyclopaedia. Otherwise you need to go ahead and change the wording of every transitional and borderline region on wikipedia.. You can't do that, it would be against the consensus, at least until most other users editing climate sections accept your way of thinking. It is not me who needs to find proof that shows the region is well in the BSh range, it is you. All the current data clearly shows the region is borderline. I am having a civilised conversation here with you so that you feel satisfied as an editor, but this doesn't mean I am going to let inconsistency take over. Berkserker (talk) 13:44, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

You simply can not produce a reliable reference that shows the climate of the entire region is borderline BSh.I can accept that it is borderline for Elliniko (and this can be reflected only for Elliniko and not Piraeus in a future edit) but always falling in the BSh climate officially but that's the most I can accept.So give me evidence that the whole of the Riviera is borderline and I ll accept a reasonable edit for that too.If not you can speculate all you like about the area,the references I have provided say otherwiseWeatherextremes (talk) 14:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, then I wish I hadn't invested all this time talking to you, if at the end of the day all you can tell me is "you can speculate all you like". Keep on avoiding, it won't get you anywhere. I don't want to debate with someone who doesn't have the necessary background in science, let alone your lack of debate management. If this is the conclusion you come to after all the conversation we had, then unfortunately I have nothing to talk to you anymore. Ok, here is your source. Now you gotta put your statistics on the table if you have anything else to "speculate" about. Berkserker (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

This link does not give the source of the data.I doubt it is from the official HNMS station in Piraeus and it does not even cite the period of the supposed averages.Plus this is a very cheap way to twist and distort my effort to keep the debate scientific Weatherextremes (talk) 15:29, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The link is a credible enough source itself. If you can find a better one be my guest. If you have access to the HNMS station, go ahead share it. Otherwise you don't have anything concrete to debate on. You don't have the data. You just have an interpretation of the data, which you try to twist according to your will. You even changed the Athens Riviera definition to include Piraeus in it to prove yourself right. Berkserker (talk) 15:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh and by the way, even though I was aware of your constant effort to cloak and change your point of view and the inability defend a consistent theory from the beginning of the debate, I never called it "cheap". I expect the same level of respect from you. Berkserker (talk) 15:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I have provided the Piraeus HNMS station climate classification (based on the stations data) according to Dr.Mamara who in her doctoral thesis is analysing only the HNMS stations data.That is actually what her doctorate is all about.Homogenising the HNMS stations data.Plus on page 83 I have provided the evidence from Dr. Mamara that in fact the whole of South Attica is BSh which is also supported by the Koppen maps.Unless you have the official HNMS data from any Riviera station that does not fall in the BSh category your proposed wording earlier is misleading and your point is moot.Plus you are the one to start personal attacks and insults against me once again  Weatherextremes (talk) 15:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Sure, I am the one to attack you. In both cases I was patiently, politely and tolerantly explaining you my point of view while you lashed out. During the first one you said "if you can't understand something don't change it" and in the second one despite my all out scientific interpretation of the data and your lack of a counter debate, you called me a "speculator". Don't expect people you insult to respect you further. I will not quarrel with you anymore on this topic, everything is clear, anyone who wishes to read our correspondence objectively can easily see the truth. And perhaps at a more mature point of your life, when you look back you can see what i am talking about as well.


 * As for the thesis, it is only a brief description on the BS regions. She doesn't present the HNMS data either. As you can see a locale (Elefsina) she mentions as BSh is 7.1 mm above threshold, so we can't draw any conclusions from her statements. I am not saying she isn't credible, just her focus is country specific and the points she wants to make are simply different, therefore she uses a broader definition to include above threshold stations in her BSh descriptions. The way you interpret her words is twisting the truth. I can very well understand what she means, but you try to mold it according to your will, and putting me in a difficult position as if I am questioning her credibility. Berkserker (talk) 16:00, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Also let's us not forget how easily you discounted earlier your links 3 to 12 because they are secondary and tertiary sources only to revert your position on accepting the latest trashy source you are providing now just to fit your narrative.You are my friend the one who a) can not support a consistent and civilised debate b) twist everything and anything just to satisfy your ego and c) result in constant ad hominem attacks and bullying (let's us not forget how you started hijacking my talk page).As you have probably gathered this behavior won't fly with me Weatherextremes (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * You can try to change the meanings of my actions all you like, but they wont change the truth. Anyone who has an education in logic and reasoning can easily understand that I haven't done anything inconsistent throughout this debate. They can also easily pinpoint who attempts the bullying and ego satisfaction which you try to reflect on me. Also warning you about respecting other editors and posting that warning on your talk page isn't hijacking. This is how Wikipedia works. Now please end this pointless argument. Berkserker (talk) 16:08, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I disregarded the previous source because of the nature of the website. It is not a real organisation and has countless made-up stations and data. Calling the second organisation "trashy" again shows what kind of a person you are. Berkserker (talk) 16:10, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I calmly explained that all my references speak of a BSh climate in the Riviera and nothing justifies a broad classification of a borderline climate .Instead you choose to result in insults and belittle my bona fide efforts to make dialogue.I will not continue with this back and forth of your personal attacks.Bring me a reliable source that an official HNMS station in the Riviera is not BSh and then we can speak Weatherextremes (talk) 16:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I can't believe how delusional you can become. I give you exact references where you first crossed the line, but still you claim I am the attacker. Just unbelievable. Now you are copying my statement saying "I can't talk to you under these circumstances". I ask you, please do something unpredictable for once.. As for the station data, I don't need to find anything that isn't BSh, as I am not claiming any part of the Riviera is Csa. All I am saying is all the data we have is borderline, meaning close to the threshold. In order to publish something saying it is typical BSh, you need to find something well below the threshold, perhaps an annual precipitation around 340 mm. Only then we can say certain parts of the Riviera has a typical semi-arid climate, with typical semi-arid vegetation which is steppe not scrub. Berkserker (talk) 16:23, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Only Elliniko HNMS is borderline BSh,while Piraeus HNMS is not according to the refs provided.You can not characterise the whole Riviera borderline BSh just from Elliniko Weatherextremes (talk) 16:29, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Exactly, unless you have a source showing it is typical BSh you can't characterise the whole Riviera as BSh, especially when the source you provide classifies Csa as BSh. Berkserker (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I have: Mamara et al 2015 page 83.She describes  in fact the whole of South Attica as BSh Weatherextremes (talk) 16:34, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * That source also claims Csa as BSh Berkserker (talk) 16:36, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Like it or not, I am removing Athens Riviera from the Köppen article. Berkserker (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

No it says only Elliniko is borderline BSh/Csa and no I disagree with you removing it from the Koppen article Weatherextremes (talk) 16:41, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Are you aware of the fact that each time you come up with a different proof that disregards your previous claims? First you claim maps are a legit source, then you claim a single station is a source, then you claim one can't take a single station as a source. This just goes on and on. Calling all other sources trashy while you don't have a permanent concrete theory to hold onto. You just want your point of view published, while concepts like credibility, science, consistency, don't matter to you. You just wont stop until you have your point accepted. What a big ego like you say.. Berkserker (talk) 16:44, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Quiet frankly I think the ego is yours.I have provided concrete references while you have provided links without even the exact time span of supposed averages. Weatherextremes (talk) 16:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Unless we have climate stations all across the region we can't claim it is either completely BSh or transitional Csa. We can only claim it is borderline BSh at best, from the data we have at the moment. I would be trying to satisfy my ego if I was claiming the region wasn't BSh at all, like you claim it isn't borderline at all. I am only interpreting the data and trying to help you understand my point of view. But despite all my effort and the time I invested, you chose to give me shortcut answers and claim I am a speculator. This summarises everything really. You even changed the versions you agreed upon, multiple times. Berkserker (talk) 16:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

This is what the sources I have provided state not my self .The Koppen maps,Mamara 2015 and the HNMS site all show the Riviera as a BSh climate .I will be starting the debate on the Koppen article talk page soon Weatherextremes (talk) 17:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * You can't show that as a source anymore. Already proven inconsistent as it states Csa as BSh. Who knows how they they classified the rest? (Even though I know why they have made those statements, which aren't inaccurate, this is the only way to get my message across to you) Berkserker (talk) 18:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Go ahead and check my revision on the article. Even though the other source states a possible above threshold precipitation, I still only referenced Mamara saying Piraeus is under the threshold. Until we have climate data from the HNMS Piraeus station we can take Piraeus as BSh according to Mamara. Berkserker (talk) 19:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

None agreed version.I do not accept that Piraeus is borderline or that the whole Riviera is borderline.I have reverted the edit and will now go ahead to revert the edit on the Koppen article Weatherextremes (talk) 19:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok but why do you revert the citation as well? Btw you are borderline 3RR, just warning. Berkserker (talk) 19:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I guess we can keep the citation yes Weatherextremes (talk) 19:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * You decide on that? And who are you? You have been editing multiple times, everyday, during our conversation here. Have I ever reverted your edits saying "it is not the agreed version?" The first time I go edit, which btw is the only agreed version throughout this correspondence of which you had said "I prefer the first version", you go revert. You had made so many changes after the so called "agreed" version, but I never reverted any of that. It is just amusing to watch how you behave. Berkserker (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Well my decision is based on what the actual references say.If we had reached an agreement there would not be the content dispute we are currently having.If you can propose something other than classifying the whole Riviera as borderline we might resolve this.I have engaged constructively with you despite your constant insults, ad hominem attacks and twisting of my words Weatherextremes (talk) 19:54, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, then tell me who said this: "I prefer the first one, however there should be a clear mention that both Elliniko and Piraeus fall officially in the BSh climate for more accuracy . So I propose Under the Köppen climate classification, the Athens Riviera has a borderline hot semi-arid climate (BSh) with strong hot-summer Mediterranean climate (Csa) influences. According to the data from the Hellenic National Meteorological Service Elliniko and Piraeus located in the Riviera fall in the hot semi-arid climate (BSh) classification." Weatherextremes (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2016 (UTC)"


 * Obviously it wasn't me, was it? Now go ahead and compare your proposed version to the changes I made, which you reverted. Berkserker (talk) 20:15, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I have checked it and your edit suggests that Piraeus is also just under the threshold. This is totally arbitrary and factually wrong my friend.Let's put Elliniko as borderline and Piraeus as a clear BSh within a sentence and we get to our golden compromise Weatherextremes (talk) 20:19, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * If you have a problem with a small detail, you don't go ahead and revert the entire version with the correct referencing. The version you revert back to is 10 times less accurate than that. This is enough to show your edits are intentional and disruptive. You can make your case here instead, which I was doing for days with great patience, without editing the article even once, while you were playing with the article like a toy. And please stop accusing me of the things you have done. It was only you who hijacked my page, it was only you who insulted me, and it was you who disrespected me on both occasions. Berkserker (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

So your solution is to omit Piraeus being mentioned clearly as BSh because you just dont like the reference ? For example if we had a source that says word by word in English that Piraeus is BSh you would have omitted it just like that only because you don't like what the Greek academia says ? My friend this is not how you do research or how you engage in a debate constructively Weatherextremes (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I already stated above why Piraeus isn't suitable. 1) You added Piraeus to the definition of the Riviera just to prove your point 2) We do NOT have weather station data. It is already proven the paper you cite clearly states borderline Csa as BSh. Until we have station data it is not clear how borderline (or not) Piraeus is. 3) Don't you dare tell me how to conduct research. 4) You already ended a healthy debate by defining my constructive scientific thinking as speculation. From that point on I have nothing common with you to debate on. Berkserker (talk) 20:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Hang on, you are telling me that if we had a source in English that states word by word that Piraeus according to the HNMS data is BSh you would not accept it ? Weatherextremes (talk) 20:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * This is hopeless.. You are going in circles.... I already explained a dozen times what I think. I am not going to lose more time explaining you anything. If you are interested you are welcome to read my argument over and over again. Berkserker (talk) 20:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Ok this is a last ditch attempt to resolve the content dispute with my latest proposed version and a break down of why this version is the most accurate. Here is my proposed version:

Under the Köppen climate classification, the Athens Riviera has a hot semi-arid climate (BSh) with strong hot-summer Mediterranean climate (Csa). According to the Hellenic National Meteorological Service Elliniko, which is located in the Riviera, has a borderline semi-arid climate. Additionally according to the data for the period 1960-2004 the HNMS station of Piraeus shows a typical hot semi-arid climate (BSh)

The first reference verifies the BSh climate of the Riviera (one would need to enlarge the map considerably).This is also verified by the Mamara reference (page 83, see my translation above).I mention that Elliniko is borderline BSh as per the HNMS reference on the weather box. Then I add that Piraeus has a typical BSh climate as shown by the Mamara reference (page 172, see my translation above). I have included the period of the data for the Piraeus HNMS station analysed by Dr. Mamara .This can be found again on page 172. The exact Greek text is :

Για τις ανάγκες αυτής της έρευνας χρησιμοποιήσαμε τις ομογενοποιημένες χρονοσειρές μέσης θερμοκρασίας και τις χρονοσειρές υετού για την περίοδο 1960-2004

which would translate as  for the purposes of this research we used the homogenised time series of mean temperatures and the precipitation time series for the period 1960-2004.

I consider this is the fairest and most accurate version based on the most reliable references available.It's clear, concise and uses all the data in a rational way easily understood by lay people. This will also be my last proposed edit as an act of good will to resolve the content dispute. Weatherextremes (talk) 01:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You can't just ignore all the discussion above. I had told you maps are not a source a long time ago. If you had a problem with that you had to address that. And non of the sources (Dr. Mamara's thesis or the map) claim Piraeus or the Riviera has a typical BSh climate. This version is simply inaccurate. Berkserker (talk) 05:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You know that climate normals even for the same station change according to the period taken? Here is another data set from Elliniko (1961-1990) that shows the precipitation is just 2.2 mm above the threshold. So it is Csa according to this data set. So not only is it borderline but also transitional. But of course if it was you who found this data set you would be edit warring to only put Csa on the article. Berkserker (talk) 07:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Found a new source and it looks like they use official data. For Athens, they have used the official data from the National Observatory of Athens station, it is identical. So I assume the Piraeus data is reliable as well. According to that site, the annual precipitation for Piraeus is 370.8 mm and the mean is slightly lower than the Elliniko station, making it about 1.6 mm above threshold instead of 1 mm. Until we have HNMS data right from the source I will not publish these, however they should give you an idea how transitional Piraeus is, just like Elliniko. Berkserker (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The only risk is, this might not be the Piraeus station, but another station in the Riviera. The only way to understand that is to access all official stations to compare. Berkserker (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok here is the English journal version on Dr. Mamara's research .Page 14 reads :

 According to raw data three stations Serres, Florina and Kozani in northern Greece belong to warm temperate climate, fully humid with hot summer (type Cfa), two stations Macedonia and Larisa located in northern and central Greece respectively, have arid, cold steppe climate (type BSk), Piraeus station located in Attica region has arid, hot steppe climate (type BSh) 

In light of this my last proposed version is pretty much the same apart from adding this reference and specifying the time frame for Elliniko.The first citation will remain the Broke University Koppen map which does not exist in the Koppen article and is also the map with the best detail for the area when enlarging and shows clearly a BSh climate for South coastal Attica  .The second citation will be Dr. Mamara's doctorate where on page 83 she mentions that South Attica has a BSh climate (see my translation above) .The English journal version will go at the end supporting Piraeus's semi-arid climate.

Also as an act of good will I shall not add the entire Riviera in the Koppen article but only Piraeus,which is a very important and well known Greek city by itself.This will also now be reflected in the Piraeus article Weatherextremes (talk) 00:31, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You still don't understand that there is no problem with the source. For some reason you insist the problem was language, which isn't. It was clear from the first moment what the source states. I never questioned the thesis. It is your way of twisting the information on that source that is what's bothering me. She never states for once Piraeus has a typical BSh climate, she just says it falls under that category. It may be by 1 mm or a million millimetres. The paper isn't about the Köppen classification either, she just includes a short, brief section about this topic. It isn't the scope of this thesis. It is so brief and out of scope that the word "arid" has been used, which is definitely not the definition of BS climates. You are just trying take an honest piece of work and synthesising it to backup your fabricated claims, while putting other editors (me) in a difficult position as if they do not find Dr. Mamara's thesis credible.. I am SURE that the Piraeus station falls under the threshold for at least some of the periods taken, just like the Elliniko station, or perhaps any 30 year period possible. But non of these make Piraeus a TYPICAL BSh. In order to claim that you need to see the raw data yourself. Also spare me with your act of "goodwill", and use Wikipedia terminology accurately. Not putting the entire Riviera under BSh isn't an act of goodwill, you simply saw that the region can be borderline and even transitional. It isn't an act of goodwill when you have no other choice but stick with the data. Your entire narrative is based on demagoguery and deceit. Berkserker (talk) 05:52, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * It isn't only borderline, it is also transitional. The data shows that. There are Csa regions in the Riviera. Whether you agree or not doesn't change that. Berkserker (talk) 15:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Come to think of it my last proposed version would be scrapping borderline all together.This is far more accurate since both the Brock University reference and page 83 of Mamara reference show BSh climate very clearly for the whole area and not only Elliniko which is fairer to the climate of the whole area. Weatherextremes (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * How many times am I going to tell you that maps are NOT a source? They are vectorised from station data, and are open to human error. Many countries on that map are portrayed incorrectly up to 50% let alone a small region like the Riviera. As long as one has climate station data, maps are ruled out. Berkserker (talk) 15:27, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Do you want to be blocked? Is that it? This is my last warning. Do NOT delete legitimate data and sources. We even discussed here why that source is needed. You just turn a blind eye to the discussion, sources and data. It is unbelievable.. This is very immature. Berkserker (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I have calmly said that the problem is the content dispute.You read the sources in a twisting way and adhere to your narrative.I think that anyone could see this.And do not threaten me.I am sure that an experienced admin will see that the antagonistic logic comes from you.Weatherextremes (talk) 15:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah right, I am the one deleting the second source and claming it is Csa.. Also time to learn how Wikipedia works, a warning needs to be made before someone is reported. I have been patient more than enough. Berkserker (talk) 15:43, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Please join the discussion, I can't take this abuse any longer. Berkserker (talk) 15:46, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I think its time you return to this conversation. Did all I can but it seems impossible to communicate with the user. Berkserker (talk) 15:49, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * This is my last act of goodwill, bringing other users into the conversation before reporting your disruptive editing. You still have time to correct your behaviour. Berkserker (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * By the way you have surpassed the 3RR, you are technically vandalising the page beyond disruptive editing. Berkserker (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Like I said earlier the references I have provided show a BSh climate for the area.Both the best resolution map reference and also Mamara's reference page 83.The one who is editing disruptively is you my friend and that's all because you want to force an inaccurate interpretation of the area's climate Weatherextremes (talk) 15:58, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, I am making up station data. Berkserker (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

No,you just use a more limited time span of them for a single station (Elliniko) in order to force your interpretation for the whole area Weatherextremes (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Somewhere in the discussion above I had made an educated guess that the region is possibly even transitional, (even though back then my only effort was to include the term borderline according to the data that existed then) and you had asked for 30+ year data from an official station and you would "accept" the region is transitional as well. Then I came across a 30 year data set from HNMS and presented the data saying "You know that climate normals even for the same station change according to the period taken? Here is another data set from Elliniko (1961-1990) that shows the precipitation is just 2.2 mm above the threshold. So it is Csa according to this data set. So not only is it borderline but also transitional. But of course if it was you who found this data set you would be edit warring to only put Csa on the article. Berkserker (talk) 07:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)" so the debate was over. Now you decide some time later it would be cool to assume this wasn't discussed. I don't have to explain you the same things over and over again everyday. Berkserker (talk) 16:19, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * And this isn't the first time you are being inconsistent. There are so many examples any reader can pinpoint. A very distinct example would be just a few edits ago you were warring to revert the term borderline which you had agreed upon. Berkserker (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Well the official HNMS data you provide is for a more limited and older time span.One does not need to be a climate expert to understand that these become redundant when we have newer data and for a longer period.This is actually how climatology works.The more and the most recent data are more representative.You know a debate is not static but dynamic and it will evolve as it progresses Weatherextremes (talk) 16:30, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok then I advise you to learn that climatological normals are usually taken in sets of 30 years. And different intervals result in different data. Borderline and transitional regions can fall into different climate definitions each time a data set is selected (you are again making me repeat!). Berkserker (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes but the more data the more representative .The HNMS reference includes the 1961-1990 data and in fact expands it until 1997 which shows a BSh climate for Elliniko.This coupled with the provided references should be more than enough to classify the area as BSh Weatherextremes (talk) 16:42, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You would be right if I claimed the region is solely Csa, but I never did that. Different periods taken result in different precipitation data. Some periods may have been affected by drought, therefore that may explain your long term data having less precipitation even though it includes the 1961-1990 data. Climatic normals by the most credible organisations such as the NOAA and WMO are updated about every 10 years (1961-1990, 1981-2010) to show the dynamic nature of climates. Berkserker (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Climate normals are produced by each country's national metoffice and then sent officially to the WMO. HNMS has not produced any updated climatic normals but most inclusive and more recent data are to be found in the HNMS site for Elliniko and they show a BSh climate Weatherextremes (talk) 16:52, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You see it is just impossible to discuss anything with you. This is why I ceased having a debate with you a long time ago. You violated our "evolving debate" by defining my scientific reasoning as a speculation. So don't ask me to have a conversation with you anymore, it is impossible to have one with somebody who doesn't read and respond to arguments. From now on I will not waste my time and the only thing I care about is you don't revert sourced information when there isn't a content dispute present. Berkserker (talk) 17:20, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I have provided 4 refs in total while you use an outdated climatic normals source for a single station to force your interpretation of the whole area's climate.Two of my refs in the first sentence of my version show a BSh climate for the whole area.For Elliniko I have provided the most up to date and inclusive data from the first source which is HNMS.Obviously there is a content dispute here and the refs I have provided show a BSh climate. Borderline at best only for Elliniko and not the whole of the Riviera.Weatherextremes (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yet again, you are contradicting yourself. It was you who said if there is a Csa station present, the zone is transitional. Now you act as if you never said that. WMO takes 1961-1990 normals as climatic indicators, you are nobody to contest that idea. Berkserker (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Since I was asked. I am not a climate specialist so cannot comment on the science here. However. A couple of comments I would suggest on how you are handling this. First up remember that thesis' are not published and hence are not legitimate sources. Do not get me wrong there I say the same of my own. So your citations of the writer of this thesis' must be made from her publications from it, not the thesis itself. Second keep it nice. It is good that you are discussing this on the talk page, but I suggest you hold off editing and reverting the page until you reach consensus, find a consensus using valid sources then edit the page. Do not do both at once it just makes it confusing and people get upset. Third, if the maps in question have been published, then these are valid sources if they are relevant to the topic at hand, but only if they have been published. Lastly, this may be the English WP but sources can be in any relevant language, including both Greek and Spanish, or English. I honestly do not think it matters, as long as it is the most relevant information. Just remember you must use valid publications, not internal reports or thesis' etc, ie anything that anyone can obtain for free or by purchase from some publisher or journal or something. Cheers Faendalimas  talk 18:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for entering the discussion, I value your input a lot. You are a man of science, that's all that matters, non of us are climatologists here. It is just important to maintain consistency while debating. This is why I wanted to ask a couple of editors whose opinions I trust to join the discussion, because the debate has turned away from the facts and rational thinking. Even though the correspondence is very long and tiring for people entering the discussion now, more people joining this conversation means easier to spot inconsistencies, especially beneficial when those people have a background in science, and knows the terms accuracy, precision and consistency well.


 * Also want to let you know that if you are interested you can find the methods used to classify climates on the Köppen climate classification article. All we need is credible weather station data to apply those guidelines using simple arithmetics. Sources become redundant after all. All we need is appropriate sourcing on the Köppen article and reliable data from weather stations. Berkserker (talk) 19:03, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Since I was asked to help resolve this issue, I took time to read through all these comments and the English version of the journal article that Weatherextremes added in. I am no climate expert for Greece though. I think the issue is the inconsistency between the period of reference since the weather box uses 1955–1997 data while the journal article uses 1960–2004 data which can lead to differing classifications depending on the period of reference chosen. When Weatherextremes mentioned that the source being used is a thesis, I would like to warn that theses should be used with extreme caution as they are usually primary sources. Nonetheless, it is more reliable than climatedata.org because on their data sources page, they mention "All of our climate data comes from a climate model. The model has more than 220 million data points and a resolution of 30 arc seconds. The model uses weather data from thousands of weather stations from all over the world. This weather data was collected between 1982 and 2012.". Modelled climate data is not reliable since it was never measured in the first place; that's how they have climate data for locations where official weather stations never existed (in all countries, not just Greece). As what Berkserker says, maps are not accurate due to the methodology used (it is inherent). Even in the journal article by Peel et al, they mention inconsistencies in the map due to an uneven distribution of stations across the globe. Normally, the best sources that determine what climate classification a region is classified as are secondary sources. However, when there is no secondary source to back it up, I follow what Berkserker says (use reliable station data and use arithmetic to obtain the classification). This helps to avoid WP:OR and WP:Synthesis. After reading through the journal article, page 15 only mentions that Piraeus is classified as BSh based on raw data. That is not really good since it did not mention homogenization to account for changes in data (e.g station moved, different instruments were used, etc.). I think the best is to say that its climate is BSh (based on the source) but indicate that it has strong Mediterranean climate characteristics and transitional. For now, I recommend both of you refraining for any edits. It helps to settle down conflicts. No more attacks from both editors as well. As well, try to find good secondary sources. Ssbbplayer (talk) 04:07, 3 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your valuable input. I want to add something though, until we have HNMS station data from Piraeus, I would prefer to refrain from commenting on that specific locale. It can remain as BSh with no mention of borderline for now, even though it is highly unlikely it isn't borderline as all stations in its 2 km periphery are above threshold, thus borderline Csa. Instead I would prefer to define the climate of the region based on the few stations we have on the northwestern tip of the Riviera. Currently we have no data from central and southeastern Riviera, which is a disadvantage. Precipitation may keep on decreasing or start increasing at a certain point, we may never know that. The only thing we currently know is islands like Milos, Naxos and Mykonos are Csa. If we had station data from the 2-3 islands just off the peninsula, it would be easier to estimate the climate of the southern Riviera. Berkserker (talk) 06:24, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Faendalimas and Ssbbplayer thank you for joining in! I follow what you are saying and we could treat the second reference in the first sentence of my proposed version with caution. The past few days I was trying in the background to gather the official data from Elliniko and Piraeus from the most reliable sources.Mind you that these are the only two official stations that have ever existed within the Riviera it self according to the list of HNMS stations that I have provided somewhere in the discussion at the beginning of the debate.

So I think I have found the official data per year from 1955 until 2016 for the Elliniko HNMS station. What I have done is to download the data from here :  ,. The first source is KNMI's ECAD database which is basically the official data that each national metoffice transmits to the WMO and the second is HNMS itself after downloading one by one the monthly climatic bulletins for the most recent data. So based on these sources we have the following for Elliniko:

Mean annual temperature for the period 1955-2015 stands at : 18.69C Mean precipitation for the period 1955-2015 stands at:  366.29mm

This would bring Elliniko well into the BSh area with about 7.5 mm below the threshold for the whole period since measurements started at the former Athens airport.

Moreover the data for the last 30 years (1986-2015) are as follows: 18.84C and 358.88mm for temp and precip, which would again bring Elliniko well into the BSh area with more than 17.9mm below the threshold

Now after having calculated the 30 year period as per the usual WMO climatic normals for 1981-2010 shows the following: 18.67C and 362.22mm for temp and precip and would again put Elliniko well into the BSh area with about 11.2mm below the threshold.

This is not surprising since Greece especially the past 15 years has seen an unprecedented warming throughout the whole country according to the HNMS stations.Those of us within the Greek amateur meteo community are well aware of this.Now a few notes on the sources.I have my self checked the reliability of the KNMI database a few years back when I ordered the HNMS data for a few stations.Basically the data are identical to what HNMS sells or officially transmits to any interested party.Furthermore between January 2013 and November 2014 the Elliniko station was not working due to the aftermath of the Greek debt crisis (don't get me started on this one haha) but HNMS pulled through with the help of the government and the stations are back up and running.

Another point that I would like to raise with Ssbbplayer. You are right about the homogeneity checks for the precipitation data but unfortunately this is the case for all the official HNMS stations since these have never been homogenised from HNMS as you can see from the English journal. This would mean that all the precipitation data we get from the HNMS site are actually the raw data and if we are to treat it as a mediocre source then we will have to adjust all the wikipedia articles that use the official HNMS site data!

Obviously all the above data I am quoting would constitute original research but I am using them just to get an idea of what is expected when someone will buy the data from HNMS itself.Now the only other real option to break the deadlock would be for me to buy the HNMS data.I don't mind doing this but it can take up to a week to get these delivered to me so please bear with me as I will apply on Monday to get the data for the whole period for Elliniko and Piraeus which I suspect will only verify the above figures.

Now I have also found another good secondary source that describes again Elliniko as BSh which is the Gouva et al 2011 book here (in Greek) :. If you check page 156 station number 91 Ελληνικό you will see it's down as BSh and the same goes for the immediately neighbouring island of Aigina just off the coast of Attica if you check station number 86 on the same page under the name Αίγινα.

Anyhow just some food for thought.I ll apply tomorrow for the HNMS data so we can get confirmation of the above data Weatherextremes (talk) 10:38, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh and another thing.I had additionally used the NOAA database (country code 618 station code 16716) which is again the official HNMS data transmitted to the WMO, in order to download the Elliniko temp and precip data to double check they are OK  Weatherextremes (talk) 11:49, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Also for your convenience I have prepared a screenshot of Elliniko's data from the above sources. Again like I said this is only an indication of how I expect the data will be from HNMS itself. I am just using the data compilation for us to get a better idea and I understand this is original research .Mind you that after 2008 I have used only the climatic bulletins from HNMS Weatherextremes (talk) 12:56, 3 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the extensive analysis, obviously you invested a lot of time and effort into that. It is exactly what I would have expected, since mid-latitude areas are strongly affected by global warming. One can observe a substantial increase in mean temperatures in the last 15 years, sometimes as much as 0.5 degrees C or more. Once we have the official data, like you have suggested, we can discuss the effects of global warming and changes in data on the article as well. One thing to pay attention though is, still many regions are assessed using 1960-1990, 1970-2000, and 1980-2010 data taken as climatological normals. In order to maintain consistency between articles, we can include comparisons between periods, thats what I would suggest. Berkserker (talk) 19:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

No I disagree about using different periods of climatological normals within the article itself .We now have two stand alone sources (3 with the Gouvas 2011 ref and also the Brock Uni map and the Mamara ref) data-wise which can verify Elliniko is BSh for the whole period of their respective databases without need to result in original research/synthesis and for a much bigger period.Either we use the ECAD or the NOAA database on their own the conclusion is the same: Elliniko is below the threshold and within the BSh area for the whole period of their database.Additionally I would include in a future edit the Gouvas 2011 reference that shows Elliniko as BSh (and in fact neighbouring Aigina as well is in there). I just did the data compilation adding the HNMS bulletins so we have an idea for the most recent period between 2009 and today.

I have also applied yesterday like I said to HNMS for the data and I will be posting these here once I get them but we will need to wait some time because they told me on the phone that the recent hail incident in Athens (happened 28/6) has triggered massive applications for weather certificates from people who are seeking compensation from the government.They didnt specify how long that would take but I dont think it will be more than 10 days to 2 weeks from today Weatherextremes (talk) 08:40, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, it seems you didn't understand my point. You are still stuck in the BSh/Csa argument. What I said above has nothing to do with that. I was only supporting your research and said we can include in a sentence the increasing means trend once we have the single source data. I didn't mention putting the recent data on the article. Only having access to the data is enough to verbally express those changes in one sentence. For some reason you are overwhelmed and fixated to the multiple weather box issue that was out there a few days ago. Berkserker (talk) 08:56, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok let me see a proposed version of that sentence Weatherextremes (talk) 09:02, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not interested in proposing any sentence. I was only supporting the possibility to include your research results in the article without synthesis. Berkserker (talk) 09:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I would also seriously doubt that Aegina Island is BSh, it probably isn't even borderline Csa. Even though I'm not a fan of most maps, all precipitation maps show the island as having a 600+ mm annual precipitation.

Oh btw Aigina is one of the most arid places in Greece.It's 321mm    Weatherextremes (talk) 02:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You should also know that due to missing years in data, you can't create a 1986-2015 dataset. Berkserker (talk) 09:53, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The source you provided also says the climate is only borderline BSh and the vegetation does not represent that of typical BS climates (not steppe). So according to your source, we need to move Piraeus next to Elliniko as borderline, until we have station data. Berkserker (talk) 10:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

It's 22 months missing between Jan 2013 and November 2014 but anyhow I can put down 1981-2010 data for Elliniko and with the inclusion of the HNMS Piraeus data we can scrap the word borderline all together for the Riviera. Weatherextremes (talk) 10:32, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Where did you get that idea? The Riviera is borderline, even transitional. Nothing has changed since last time these terms were discussed. Berkserker (talk) 10:37, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Also how did you account for the 22 missing months when declaring a mean temp and precip for the 30 year period (1986-2015)? Berkserker (talk) 10:43, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

For the whole dataset period Elliniko is 7.5mm below the threshold and for the most recent period is even more than 10mm below the threshold so that's not exactly borderline .I am just holding off to see that this is confirmed by HNMS data both from Elliniko and Piraeus before I propose this edit Weatherextremes (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * 10 mm or 20 mm, doesn't matter, still borderline. Also what happened to your argument that a single station doesn't represent a region? Now you want to remove the term for the entire region? Berkserker (talk) 10:46, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You even contradict with the very sources you just provided. Berkserker (talk) 10:48, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

We only have these two official stations for the Riviera and none is even borderline according to the data itself. Maybe 5mm would be ok for borderline to be included but now with the newest data Elliniko is edging 18mm below the threshold and we will see how much lower Piraeus is Weatherextremes (talk) 10:51, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You still didn't answer how you calculated that 18 mm difference without complete data.. Not that it really matters; in a definition that covers hundreds of millimetres, (1500 mm is Csa, 400 mm is also Csa) a 10-20-30 mm difference is borderline, let alone the vegetation that denies a typical BSh climate (even your source claims that..) Berkserker (talk) 10:58, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Also the Riviera is part of the same Ecoregion as the rest of the Aegean coast. Berkserker (talk) 11:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

The point is that 5mm would be ok to classify them as borderline under Koppen but more than 10mm it's a different story.Let's wait and see what HNMS says but I am pretty sure it will be more than 5mm below the threshold for both stations.Once I have the excel sheet from HNMS with all the official data I ll upload it here and we shall see exactly where the most recent period stands.Weatherextremes (talk) 11:11, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * It isn't another story. You can't just decide that on your own. Your argument needs to be consistent with sources, vegetation as well as the rest of Wikipedia. Berkserker (talk) 11:23, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Also removed the sentence claiming Piraeus is BSh. Meanwhile please provide where you ordered the data. I am not sure I should trust your to be uploaded excel sheet, with your history of trickery and deceit. Berkserker (talk) 11:29, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

You removed Piraeus as Bsh?Where did you get that for Piraeus exactly?It is according to the English Mamara source I have provided.Also for the vegetation since you like consistency I dont see areas of Spain that on wikipedia articles are down as BSh.For example the ecosystem reference does not show steppe vegetation for let's say Valencia. I have ordered the data from here. Secondly how dare you call me deceitful?Stop with the ad hominem attacks Weatherextremes (talk) 11:35, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You are deceitful since you constantly change your position in a debate. You have 0 consistency. This is a summary of your behaviour, an ad hominem attack is when you called my scientific reasoning a speculation, with no proof at hand. If you don't want to be labeled as deceitful, then please maintain consistency in your debate. Every following sentence in your debate contradicts the one before it. You just ignore other people's arguments and let time do the work. Mamara's thesis was already discussed above by multiple users. Everything is logged here, you can't just let things go just because a few days have passed over it. Berkserker (talk) 11:44, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Reinstated Piraeus btw Weatherextremes (talk) 11:37, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * As for your ecoregion objection, for Spain ecoregions represent the BSk and BSh accurately. Names may differ, but the area covered is the same. You can clearly see a separate colour for Southeastern Spain where BSk is separated from BSh. Your source also states the region is borderline and does not have BS vegetation. Berkserker (talk) 12:00, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * If you want, you can put Piraeus in the same sentence as Elliniko. However since we don't have station data yet, I removed it completely, since we can't accurately describe it as transitional, borderline, or typical BSh/Csa with the sources we have now. Berkserker (talk) 12:07, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Since you changed the definition of the Riviera to include Piraeus just to prove yourself right, here is another source that is so specific it narrows the definition to street level, Syggrou Avenue to be exact, which is outside Piraeus. Berkserker (talk) 12:13, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The transitional statement is still left out of the article. As we know, 1-2 km's towards downtown Athens on the Syggrou Avenue is Csa, we should add the transitional detail to the article as agreed. I will go ahead and make the necessary changes. Berkserker (talk) 12:59, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you missed the part when I said that when I was creating the article I was in double mind as to whether we should include Piraeus in the definition.You can't just narrow down the definition when I have already provided a more inclusive definition of the area. Secondly the English journal does not have any problem to be used as a reference, the caution is applied on the thesis not the research published based on it in the English Journal .Read back my comment on the raw data objection that Ssbbplayer made.I explained that if we are to dismiss Piraeus raw data then we need to do the same for all the articles that list the HNMS site as a source.So until we hear back from him stop the disruptive editsWeatherextremes (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Who made you the gatekeeper of the article? Anyone who comes along and makes sourced edits are somehow disruptive, but your against consensus reverts are not. A newspaper article isn't a reliable source. You can't even cite it properly. The version you are edit warring to protect is far away from the discussion here on talk. Berkserker (talk) 13:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Who gave you the permission to keep the fabricated versions of the article which are far away from the consensus on talk? Nobody reverts your fabricated edits for days, while you can't even tolerate a version closer to the talk page consensus for 5 minutes. Again your behaviour is becoming vandal-like and borderline 3RR. If you have an objection, first discuss it here. Since you interfered with my edits in the middle of my editing session, I have to copy paste rest of my version (which is the best representation of the consensus) here: "Under the Köppen climate classification, the Athens Riviera has a borderline hot semi-arid climate (BSh) and lies in the transition zone between this climate and the hot-summer Mediterranean climate (Csa) of downtown Athens." I will not go into an edit war with you despite the constant taunting. Berkserker (talk) 13:28, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

You should read more carefully what is been said.You tend to superficially check what is been said or written.You did the same with the HNMS site source when you could not read a simple graph.I have only taken out the thesis itself which is the only thing that is against the consensus.The rest is open to debate Weatherextremes (talk) 13:23, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * This is coming from you, really? As someone who ignores 90% of the discussion, saying that to someone who addresses every single sentence in an argument is really amusing. You make me repeat everything ten times. You should stop quoting me all the time, it really isn't a mature thing to do. Berkserker (talk) 13:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Also you seem to ignore that I offered new sources on the data itself and we haven't heard anything from any other editors after that.I dont really know how to spell it out for you but here it goes: ECAD and NOAA database if used as stand alone sources show a BSh climate for Elliniko.Even the word borderline seems questionable to me right now.Once I have the data from HNMS we can see exactly how lower than the threshold but I don't think it would be much different from either the NOAA and ECAD databases or my research.Also in terms of vegetation if you want to include a sentence I dont mind but that would need to be out of the koppen classification context Weatherextremes (talk) 13:43, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Wow, this shows that you really do not know what the Köppen classification is all about. Köppen climate classification is based on vegetation, nothing else. Berkserker (talk) 13:52, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh and btw I have added your first sentence version in bona fide until I get the HNMS data Weatherextremes (talk) 13:54, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You really are a case study. Berkserker (talk) 13:57, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Even though you call me deceitful ,you rant on your own, dismiss the ECAD and NOAA databases I accepted your version in bona fide until we get confirmation from Greece's metoffice.Just make sure when I get the HNMS data and post them here you ll have a better case other than I dont believe that you are posting the original excel file Weatherextremes (talk) 14:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * If you don't want to find yourself in a similar situation, you should have created a shared email account and have the file sent there. Berkserker (talk) 14:08, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I already made my case above, approaching the topic from different points of view. My mind doesn't work like yours, trying to find alternate routes whenever it faces difficult situations. Berkserker (talk) 14:12, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

You go order them for yourself.I gave you the link of where I ordered them from Weatherextremes (talk) 14:11, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Mate you don't get that I am accepting it in bona fide for the time being despite being called names repeatedly.When I get the data and both stations will likely be confirmed as below than 5mm from the threshold then you will see an entirely different version much more accurate Weatherextremes (talk) 14:16, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Don't make me repeat things again. Your 5 mm discussion was already addressed. Berkserker (talk) 14:26, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I think you are too obsessed with the Koppen article and your obsession get's in the way of your judgement Weatherextremes (talk) 14:35, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Personal attacks will not get you anywhere. For the record, obsession is not measured by knowledge or by actively taking part in a debate, but by compulsive behaviour that is easily distinguishable by intolerance towards others editing the article and constant reverting.


 * And ignoring arguments made by other users and not addressing them will only make you ignorant, nothing more. Berkserker (talk) 20:39, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Your arguments is actually an effort to divert the dialogue all together in order to keep an area with a BSh climate other than Spain from entering the Koppen article.It won't fly with me basically.Cry me a river about ignoring your antagonistic and shallow arguments Weatherextremes (talk) 01:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

So... what's the problem?
Berkserker, Weatherextremes: I've been asked to rejoin this discussion, as it appears to have (again) drifted off-topic and into an angry discussion towards one another (instead of the content). Let's start over from the beginning. What is the exact issue and source in dispute that has lead this discussion to drift into frustration and finger-pointing I'm seeing?  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   23:28, 6 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Basically this user is obsessed with not having any European area other than Spain in the Koppen article.This has led him to cause all this.He has been the one to start personal attacks and then cries help just because he does not like that areas outside Spain have also BSh/BSk climates. Weatherextremes (talk) 01:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Oshwah, Weatherextremes: If he continues to talk to me in that tone, I simply will not respond. He can go on and vandalise any page he likes, I simply will not put up with this attitude. I am sure in the future some other editor will realise this nonsense and intercept. The only way to deal with his behaviour is to behave in the same manner (edit war), which is something I will not get into. I did all I can to reason with him, but it is apparent that this is a lost cause. The first time I edited the article (from the beginning of this discussion) was after we had input from other users, meanwhile until then he edited it a dozen times in the course of the discussion where non were agreed versions, but nobody reverted his edits while the discussion was still going on here. But the moment someone else made an edit after the discussion, his reverts were so immediate, it caused edit conflicts. It is more than enough goodwill from my side already not reporting him for his disruptive behaviour, 3RR violations and disrespectful tone. But this does not mean I will stay around to tolerate this immature and disrespectful behaviour. The only way to cope with his behaviour (other than reporting him or using his own methods and tactics) was to include other users in the discussion. If he is defining that as "crying for help", instead of thanking me for my patience, then it is time for me to give up until some other users realise what is going on. Berkserker (talk) 08:28, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Berkserker - If the editor is edit warring, violating 3RR, editing against consensus, and is being uncivil and unwilling... I'd definitely file relevant reports, collaborate with the community that collaborated towards consensus for help, and take action (or let administrative action be taken) from there. I completely understand your frustration; don't be afraid to file reports for repeated violations if they're warranted. Disruption is disruption ;-)  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   15:30, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Berkserker, Weatherextremes: It appears that there have been uncivil and rude comments made from the both of you, as well as aspiration casting and unwarranted accusations from both sides. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5). I think you both need to drop the incivility, and either agree to work things out or ask for community input or comments. What is the exact content and reference that is being disputed here?  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   16:03, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Non of my accusations were unwarranted, but like I declared, I am pulling out of this pointless debate. I will only comment on content based arguments and ignore the rest. Weatherextremes: Accept this as a last act of goodwill from my side, I am not your enemy, no need to make this personal. Please just focus on the topic at hand, and that is the climate of Athens, Athens Riviera, and now as you objected, climate of Madrid. I also realised an edit on the Athens article by a new user. This new user has made only 4 edits since their registration. Two are on climate of Athens and the other two are on same sex marriage. Since you are interested in LGBT rights and meteorology, I need to ask you if this account is also yours. This question is necessary to avoid sock puppetry accusations in the future. Berkserker (talk) 21:20, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Sock pupperty now. As you can see Oshwah the lever of this user's obsession is just beyond words .Keep up the good work Sherlock/Berkserker lol.Anyhow I have already found major holes on this user's biased contributions on Spanish climate articles which I will be contesting from now on   Weatherextremes (talk) 05:09, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Oshwah: You see, it is just impossible to communicate. I just asked if he owns this account so that he isn't accused with sock puppetry in the future and look at the answer.. Weatherextremes: This is how Wikipedia works, you can own multiple accounts as long as you declare them. I gave you a chance to declare if you own this account or not, to avoid any misunderstandings in the future. I didn't say you have a sock puppet, since that account doesn't have any edits on articles you are debating over now. You may not be aware of all the rules, therefore out of courtesy all users may give warnings to other users so they do not get in trouble in the future. If my intension was to get you punished from the beginning, this wouldn't be how I deal with it, spending countless hours talking to you.. Berkserker (talk) 05:31, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Weatherextremes - Your edit here was completely unnecessary, and is not working towards a consensus. This is your final warning. If you make any more snarky or uncivil comments toward Berkserker again that do not focus on content, but instead the editor, you will be reported and blocked for incivility and disruption. Berkserker - I recommend that you request dispute resolution at Dispute resolution noticeboard. This will be the place to go if an endless dispute needs a nice kick in the right direction. Let me know how it goes.  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   05:54, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Oshwah: I have been focusing on content.Check my latest edits regarding Madrid's climate on the Koppen article for example.This is what I intend to do from now on since now I am intrigued about the inconsistencies I have recently discovered in Spanish climate articles.I have made an initial list of the problematic articles that I will be addressing gradually Weatherextremes (talk) 06:49, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Weatherextremes, Oshwah: How is it inconsistent? Can you explain your reasoning a little bit? You were adamant about the 5 mm below threshold limit when claiming Piraeus was typical BSh, and now when it comes to Madrid you are objecting to a location that has a precipitation 20-60 mm below threshold. How is 60 mm borderline while 10 mm is not? Berkserker (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Weatherextremes: Please answer the question above. Meanwhile take a look at this presentation to see why the 1961-1990 normals are still taken as standard, unlike what you say and claim as "outdated". Here you can see why the WMO still only provides the 1961-1990 data on their official website. Berkserker (talk) 07:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Check the Koppen article talk pageWeatherextremes (talk) 03:14, 14 July 2016 (UTC)