Talk:Atlantis/Archive 1

discussion
Following article copied from www.LinkersConnections.com/Articles.htm.

- * Where * appears: To see map, photo, picture or sketch go to www.LinkersConnections.com/Article.htm. James Churchward presents a map of Atlantis as part of a world map etched into a clay tablet and star dated beyond 25,000 years ago. He shows pottery found by Dr. Henry Schliemann of Troy fame proclaiming they are gifts from Atlantis. Phoenician hieroglyphics read: “From the King of Chronos of Atlantis.” + IIRC, Thera was featured in a PBS special in the late 1980's and mentioned as a possible Atlantis. It seems like many members of the general public would be familiar with this theory. A matching pottery vessel to a vase found by Schliemann was identical to another vase in a collection in the Paris Louvre that came from Tiahuanaco, Bolivia. It bears the same markings, size and shape, as if made in the same factory and is marked with the same symbol for Atlantis. Two identical vases found worlds apart. Tiahuanaco is 12,500 feet up in the Andes and Troy is on the Mediterranean Coast. + This article in general seems to be sloppy, rambling and lacking in NPOV. It reflects more the wishes of woo-woo's than the historical facts and the opinions of scholars. Churchward presents several books including photos and sketches of multiple references to Atlantis and Mu throughout archeological history. He presents the most all-encompassing information promoting the existence of both Atlantis and Mu of any person ever. Yet he is barely noted by today’s “scientists.” Even the credible scientists daring to go out on a limb advancing their own theories that Atlantis was in the Mediterranean, North America or Artic do not get the big picture portrayed by Churchward. + --HK, 9 Aug 2005 * Collapsed Gas Belts and Chambers Sunk Atlantis
 * Ancient map of Atlantis

Churchward's theory is that gas belts and chambers, created like trapped bubbles in bread, left over from the cooling earth, eventually collapsed underneath Atlantis sinking it below the Atlantic Ocean.

The ancient world map clearly shows a giant inland sea where the Amazon basin is now. When Atlantis sunk this inland Sea drained and became swamp. The crucial point is the Andes were not mountains yet. From the inland-most western edge of the Amazon Sea where the great port of Tiahuanaco is located, it is only a hundred miles or so to the Pacific Ocean and from there a short sea voyage of a thousand miles or so to the great continent of MU, the motherland of all earth's continents.

Today, Tiahuanaco is a giant ruin of tumbled cut stone blocks weighing 350 tons or more. Located 12 miles off the shore of Lake Titicaca, Peru, at 12,500 feet, it is surrounded by examples of marine life and salt crystals. Either Tiahuanaco was down or the sea was up. Churchward’s interpretation of these blocks being part of stone canals for inland sea travel makes perfect sense if you accept that Tiahuanaco was at sea level in past history. Accept that as fact, eliminate the Andes as a physical impediment and Tiahuanaco becomes a major center of commerce linking South America with Mu to the west and east across the Amazonian Sea, to Atlantis and Africa/Asia.


 * Lines of Colonization: Mu to Atlantis

It was only a thousand miles or so by sea from Mu to South America. A short portage of a hundred miles or so from western South America to Tiahuanaco, exchange goods and continue easterly across the Amazon Sea and up the east coast of South America till you run into Atlantis. Keep going north to the Canary Islands, at that time an Atlantian mountain chain, and from there only 70 miles or so of open water to Africa. Bring on the trade. Bring on the cocaine from South America that was traded to the Egyptians and can still be found traces of cocaine in 3,500 year old mummies.

If Atlantis was a fact, then it was much like America is today: totally dominate in economics, commerce, finance, military and politics. In short, Atlantis ruled the world. Its influence was felt everywhere. Look at the map with Atlantis as a continent occupying most of today’s Atlantic Ocean and it is easy to see a water-to-land world much easier to navigate than our oceans today. Atlantis ruled the world and left its imprint in many places. Yet Mu was the motherland and little to no attention is given to Mu by even alternative “scientists” today.

Mu must be included whenever consideration is given to Atlantis because they were The World, then. Accept Mu, and you can accept the giant carved stone head that sits outside the Mexico City Museum entrance, a head so large and out of place they did not even include it inside the Museum. A 12 foot high stone head of a Negro from pre-Columbian history found in Mexico is one hell of an anomaly to ignore, but scientists have done a most excellent job of doing just that. The curly hair, ridged eyebrows, big lips and multiple “African” features leave no doubt that this is the head of a Negro-not a Mayan, Aztec nor native American of any kind.

Simple question for you, the reader: Where else do you find giant heads and statues? Think of Easter Island and throughout the Pacific Islands. Giant heads and statues were common to Mu. The Pacific islands are mountain tops left over from Mu, just as the Canary Islands and Azores are mountain tops left over from Atlantis. Africans in Maya Land or Were They from Mu?

Inside the Mexico Museum are several thousand statues unearthed from Mayan and Aztec ruins throughout Mexico. The majority look Aztec or Mayan. But a few look distinctly African (Negro), Asian (Chinese) and Asian (Aryan/Indian). I took individual photos of hundreds of these statues and plan to put them up on the internet for all to see. Not much for me to speak about. The statues speak for themselves. Non-native races from around the world were known to the locals in what is now Mexico and Central America, meaning there was a lot of world-wide commerce and travel taking place in an era of human history that conflicts with current “scientific” assumptions. So of course the giant head has been relegated to the anomaly dust bin. +

Thor Heyerdahl's Contiki reed boat expedition proved two things: + 1. Reed boats could never support commerce across today’s oceans. + 2. There was no other type of boat possible to sail the seas going back to commonly accepted points in ancient history beginning with our current era.

So how did pre-Columbians know what other races looked like? Accept Atlantis and Mu and the whole world makes much more sense. World wide travel was common enough that statues were made of travelers from other parts of the world just as we take photos today of guests from other countries noting their differences in dress and appearance. On a larger scale, civilization leaves giant relics carved in stone, built to last forever, as reminders of our past to consider today and not to throw into the obscurity of anomalous fact.


 * Semitic Head

Bring back one microbe from Mars and the scientists will blow that up into the big picture explaining how life developed, components of mineral building blocks, amino acids, environmental factors contributing to evolution and dispersion, etc, on and on. All we need is a simple microbe from Mars and the whole Universe opens up to new “facts” of life throughout the universes. We will not be alone any longer if we can just find one microbe from Mars.

Yet our ancestors left us literal tons of evidence everywhere on earth of a previous superior Era of human development. “Scientists” continue to ignore and obscure because they can not explain, nor speculate for, anything contrary to commonly accepted theories of human evolution. Can’t even speculate and dare they do so, they will be ridiculed and fired. That is some heavy shit to hold over anyone. Not many a man will subject himself to ridicule and complete loss of income for any reason let alone speculate about a GIANT STONE HEAD in Mexico that defies commonly accepted scientific thinking.

So let’s start connecting the dots. We have Churchward’s volumes written in the 1930’s and pretty much ignored. We have hundreds of facts to support Atlantis and anyone can do a search on the internet under Atlantis or any reference to it and find days worth of reading by scientists who have put up scientific evidence supporting the possibility of Atlantis being in the Atlantic Ocean. Stories about Atlantis can be found in almost every issue of Atlantis Rising or Nexus, two most outstanding examples of alternative media. Even TV has been showing numerous Atlantis stories.

I will include my own “facts” later. We now need to connect more dots. Maybe we should start with the forest instead of the trees; the trees being all the independent facts lying about the world in museums, repositories, sites, and collections everywhere, and the forest, or bigger picture, we are trying to identify. Everyone is focused on finding the clues, the scientific facts to support their conclusions regarding the location of Atlantis. Until actual ruins are found that say here is the capitol of Atlantis, we are stuck in one point of history unable to see a much grander picture. The very scientific process we so depend on to give us the facts to increase our knowledge actually inhibits our consciousness and ability to put a bigger picture together. Add Religious doctrine to current civilization and science stalls because everything now has limits. Can’t do this, don’t go there. Speculation is fine but don’t publish it and never promote it. Nothing can disturb the status quo; or risk career limbo, poverty and ridicule.

America and the scientific community are most expert at killing messengers who disturb the status quo. We all suffer for this lack of discussion regarding our ancestors. So what, you say? I love to answer a question with a question.

Does History Repeat Itself? If so, who cares? What the hell does ancient history have to do with today? Great, great, great, …, grand-pappy Urgh from 10,000 BC is always shown as a Neanderthal clothed in Woolly Mammoth hair skin carrying a club. A bit too primitive for us to even consider as it relates to today, you say. Time to connect the dots again…

Why was the guy such a primitive in the first place? Could he be a survivor from cataclysmic earth destruction? Could his relatives have been Kings and Queens, Rich and Famous people from a previous era? And here, he is nothing but a survivalist clubbing small game for dinner while he remembers his parents lavish feasts in opulent quarters as nothing more than distant past.

Picture going back from such an image to another era that preceded our current era, a time when Atlantis ruled and Mu was the Motherland. All is gone. So what? Well, what if what happened to Atlantis and Mu is a naturally occurring event that is predictable, or should I say “prophetic”? Christ was a Prophet. The Bible proclaims the end of the world and salvation in a new location called heaven. How much prophecy is based upon predictions which are based upon facts? We can predict all kinds of astronomical events from meteor showers, comets, eclipses etc. that would seem prophetic to the ignorant.

Now picture that same transition from a Golden Era to a Stone Age Era repeating itself again, because of a naturally occurring event that is predictable and due to repeat itself in our lifetime. Call it the Tribulation and Armageddon, or the Tilt, or just plain The End of the World as we know it, and it is due in our life time. Just how much of a survivalist are you? Thinking in the Big Picture, the End of the World picture, our concepts of survival are too limited. We think of short term disasters holding out until help arrives.


 * Survival Without Help Coming

Connecting the Dots means time to speculate on survival without help coming. Now what are you going to take with you? A few months of packaged food is worth about the same as your medical kit, nothing but a band-aid for the real Deal. Think bigger. We are talking rebuilding Civilization. We need to survive the means to produce a can of food rather than take as many cans of food we estimate we need to survive. It is time to turn around our thinking.

The End of the World is a classic example of making lemonade out of lemons. We are about to be handed the biggest lemon ever, the end of civilization as we know it, and now we have to plan to make lemonade. It is a great opportunity to recast our civilization in whole new concepts from what we have today that so exploits the earth for so few. For all those who have given up, don’t vote, stay to themselves, shake their head at society today and wish things could be better: Wise up! This is as good as it gets and it is all downhill now, all the way to the end as we know it. If you survive you get to be the seed-stock for a whole new Era. You can make it a Golden Era, or you can simply kiss your ass goodbye and hope for the best in a place called Heaven. In either case it is time to get your shit together. Think BIG PICTURE. ...CONNECT…the…DOTS…

Do you really want to rub sticks together again just to start a fire? We are getting another chance to rebuild, starting at a higher level than the last time, if we can only see the BIG PICTURE.

Additional notes: 1. Recent DNA and RNA blood testing of populations in Portugal, the Basque Region, Morocco, The Canary Islands and Azores have shown a unique blood link that is also rare among the rest of the world population. 2. Recent explorations have found what appears to be a huge sunken city 2,200 feet down off the coast of Cuba. The find has been shown on cable TV and is located on a giant flat plane of sea bottom. A husband/wife team is returning in the Fall of 2005 with high intensity lights and better equipment to explore the find.

To see Ancient Writing related to Atlantis go to: www.UIHwy.com +


 * To view maps,photos and pictures go to www.LinkersConnections.com/Articles.htm

- ===============================================================

discussion 2
Why is Thera mentioned twice in the timeline but not once in the "Locations" section? Isn't it a credible Mediterranean location? I know the Atlantis fans don't consider it as sexy as some of the other sites (which is obvious by the hardly-NPOV comments appended to the Thera mentions) but given that continents far from Greece get mentions, why doesn't Thera even get a paragraph?

IIRC, Thera was featured in a PBS special in the late 1980's and mentioned as a possible Atlantis. It seems like many members of the general public would be familiar with this theory.

This article in general seems to be sloppy, rambling and lacking in NPOV. It reflects more the wishes of woo-woo's than the historical facts and the opinions of scholars.

--HK, 9 Aug 2005

Added info about the India/Indonesia theory of Atlantis by Prof. Santos as well as link to his website.

--Atla 14:04, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If Atlantis is suppose to have existed somewhere in the Atlantic between Europe and the Americas, had contact with the peoples of Europe, would it also seem possible they had contact with the peoples of the Americas? Is there any thing in either the oral or written histories of the native American inhabitants that mentions contacts with people from Atlantis or something that could point to Atlantis?

Thanks for the altiplano info!! Can you please clarify why cocaine is considered to support this theory?? (Found in Egyptian mummies, right?)


 * Out only ancient source for the existance of Atlantis is Plato, who claims that his father got the story from some Egyptian. The cocaine in the mummy shows that there had to be cross Atlantic contact of some sort or another (perhaps even just sporadic) in ancient times. Proving that there was contact is a necessary step to link a South American Atlantis to Plato. --BlackGriffen

I agree!! Finding cocaine in Egyptian mummies is very interesting!! But our Wikipedia Atlantis entry doesn't mention that cocaine WAS found in Egyptian mummies. It just says that cocaine is evidence of contact with Egypt. I think we need to clarify this. Thanks.
 * The notion that the cocaine finds in the mummies are legitimate is vulerantly rejected by most archaeologists. Most do not like anything that upsets established notions, such as that nobody crossed the Atlantic before Colombus. By the way, some archaeologists have said in recent years that they believe Europeans may have crossed the atlantic in ice-age times due to the similarity of tools found on both sides of the atlantic.

This may help: http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtml

"a great many films"? Name ten. :-) I certainly don't think "Atlantis films" are considered a genre like, for example, "War movies" or "Westerns".


 * here's 46: http://us.imdb.com/Tsearch?atlantis :)

Ya got me!! :-)

Other issue: The name of an ancient historian or author named Marcellus shows up twice in the text of "Atlantis." One claims that he wrote in the first century (A.D.), and the other that he wrote in the fourth century. Could somebody comment on this? Were they different persons or the same, and there is an inaccuracy? --zasimon

Aren't maize and quinoa cereals? They come from Southern America and N American Indians cultivated other grains with lower yield, whose names I don't remember? -- Error

Am I the only one who gets the distinct impression that the whole Atlantis story was a confusion of two separate histories? - various accounts of the Americans, and of the sinking of the seven islands off the coast of Spain just after the ice age .

Notice that in all the name-dropping of ancient sources, there are no citations to surviving texts, other than the Plato references. Now, when will Plato's actual cave as described in the Republic be identified by some literal-minded owl? Wetman 17:03, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please someone check the most recent additions.

---

Grammar is at times confusing. Perhaps a knowledgable native english speaker could review and edit the article.

Linked from Slashdot: Scientists claim to have found Atlantis
There are two stories linked from the Slashdot story. -- Jim Regan 08:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

"Atlantis in Gibraltar, between Iberia and Africa"

Comparisons between the theory of the Hispano-american investigator Georgeos Diaz-Montexano and French geologist Jacques Collina-Girard. Simple Coincidences or Plagiarism?

By María Fdez-Valmayor

Dear Sirs:

The French geologist Jacques Collina-Girard claims no one before him (Sept, 2001, publication date of his article) had realized Atlantis Island could be located in one of the sunken islands or shoals at the Strait of Gibraltar, which was exactly where hispano-american investigator Georgeos Díaz-Montexano has been upholding for the last years: he could prove the first publication of his theory was in April, 2000 (see: Proofs 1  and  Proofs 2)

Georgeos Díaz-Montexano - Theory in April, 2000 Jacques Collina-Girard -- Theory in September, 2001

Collina-Girand has successfully confused the National Geographic Society, as well as everyone else, with his "influence", "degrees", and "academic references". He has "more credibility" than Georgeos Díaz, as he is part of the "oficial" and "academic world". However, he is neither entitled to nor has the right to take advantage of someone's effort and intellectual property, even from an "amateur".

Anyway, this point is, in fact, easy to solve (both in front of public opinion and court, if there was no other way but turn to Law): In order to prove Collina-Girard has formulated a theory almost identical if not really similar to Georgeos Diaz-Montexano's one, at least in the most fundamental points and the theoretical statement, he just needs to settle two obstacle, from my on point of view, easy to overcome.

1. He has to prove that those who read the basic statements of Collina-Girard's theory, which was same as Georgeos Diaz's, would find both theories similiar or almost identical to each other, close enough for them to be easy confused, regardless of who was the first person to write it. So, first of all, it would be necessary to lay down how close the two basic statements are: the major defence of Collina-Girard's is still that both theories are "totally different". Of course, what else would he say!

If there is a high similitude between both basic statements of this two theories, then, we have a problem, as both autors cannot claim in their writtings, and in front of mass media, they are the original creators of it. It can only be one, and this point could be solve if one of them says so, in public, that is, his theory is later, just a "simple" and "curious casuality". If the secondary or later author keeps saying everywhere in mass media that he was the first to announce that theory, then, of course, he would be damaging the original and previous author, who won't be able to get neither financing nor any support to develop his theory, as everybody would argue there's a previous investigator claiming to have been developing the same statement before.

2. So after laying down how close to eah other the basic statements are, it would be necessary to show who was the first publishing it. There're magazines and news to demostrate this point.

To make it easy, I've arranged a short article and clear comparative table, with the basic statements of both theories, showing the most relevant points people can see when reading them. Accurately, these comparisions should be done with investigators' first publicacions, instead of their later developing of themselves. And so it is. We have compared the main statements of both theories in Georgeos' first publication (the mass media magazine "Más Allá de la Ciencia" -Beyong Science-, April, 2000), and Jacques Collina-Girard's, in Science Academy, September, 2001. The French geologist submitted a report, with date March 15th, 2001, to French Science Academy. Collina-Girard states this theory came up to his mind just by chance in January, 2001, but the report was not accepted until June, 2001, and published in September, 2001. So, before September, 2001, no one could neither know nor even think Collina-Girard's theory did exist. Up until that date, the only theory about "Atlantis in Gibraltar, between Iberia and Morocco" was Georgeos Diaz's statement. Also, as the bulletin where Collina-Girard published his "pseudo-theory" would only circulate in academic media, it hadn't reached outside if it wasn't for the big divulgation campaign at the end of September, 2001, using all international mass media.

Why did they do so?

How many relevant and even more original reports are submitted every year to Science Academy, no announced at any international mass media?

Why even, being Atlantis a "taboo" topic, with a really bad image for scientific society, all institutions and media regarding them hastened to support this "pseudo-theory" divulgation campaign, Collina-Girard's (the Georgeos's theory) "Atlantis in Gibraltar, between Iberia and Africa"?

The French scientist (Jacques Collina-Girard and his team) did know perfectly Georgeos Diaz's investigations, and, convinced of his higher scientific possiblities, they planned to steal Georgeos Diaz's theory as soon as they realized he was not part of any University, with neither possible credibility nor institutional support with him. Looks like, as we have seen, these French "scientists" did think it is the "oficial science", not again "amateurs", the ones to represent and take the glory for (maybe, who knows) the scientific discovery of Atlantis. This is not the first time in History, "so-called" academic "scientist"had tried the same, not only against Spanish investigators.

In any case, we need your most sincere opinion and votes, after reading this article and analyzing the comparative table between both theories:

http://civilizaciones.webcindario.com/release_news.htm

Please, see to the pdf archive.

http://usuarios.lycos.es/egiptosofia/The_archaeological_evidence_in_front_of_Gibraltar.pdf

Yours, María Fdez-Valmayor

Secretary, "The Civilizations Origins Scientific Society"

http://Atlantis.sitio.net

[mailto:origenesinfo@todito.com Origenesinfo@todito.com]

Tel. (34) 91 408 82 84

(34) 660 89 65 70

Votes:

Survey: Think that a great similarity between both theories exists?

[ http:// miarroba.com/encuestas/votar.php?id=73637 Votes] [Spaces added to break blacklisted URL. —WWoods (talk) 13:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)]

Translate by Lc. César Guarde. Universidad de Barcelona, Spain.

Tel. (34) 660 89 65 70 / (34) 91 479 91 20

Atlantis in the Sea of Azov
Atlantis Motherland book, by authors Flying Eagle and Whispering Wind, published in 2003, locates the Island of Atlantis beneath the Sea of Azov and on the adjacent fertile plains to the west in Ukraine and to the east in Krasnodar Kray, Russia. Their research is based on tectonic evidence of a massive earthquake centered at Kerch, at the end of the Pleistocene and evidence of a great flood at the end of the Younger Dryas ice age, in 11,600 BP. This date corresponds exactly with the date set by an aged Egyptian priest for the destruction of Atlantis, as recorded in the dialogues of Plato.

Plato’s writings report that the Island of Atlantis was not an island in the open sea; it was created by the ancient Atlanteans by excavating an incredible ditch around a fertile plain, located north of a great sea, and surrounded by a boundless continent. A massive earthquake caused the island to sink, creating a new sea, which according to Eagle/Wind is the Sea of Azov. The violent earthquakes and floods left the new sea “impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way.” The aged priest refers to the shoals of mud as still existing at that time. The Sea of Azov was blocked by shoals of mud at that time, and would still be today without regular dredging.

Numerous other similarities with Plato's description of Atlantis are presented by Eagle/Wind. Plato’s writings reveal that red, white and black rock was quarried from beneath the City of Atlantis. There are miles of tunnels beneath the city of Kerch; where red, white and black rock is still being quarried.

Plato's writings describe a hill, where the Citadel of Atlantis once stood, located on the northern shore of a great sea. Mithridat Hill rises up in the middle of Kerch, on the northern shore of the Black Sea. In ancient times the Black Sea was known as the Pontus. Pontus is also the name of a pre-Olympian god of the sea, who later became known as Poseidon, the legendary founder of Atlantis.

Other similarities listed by Eagle/Wind are; settlements of primal man, an abundance of hydrothermal energy, to create the hot water fountains of Atlantis, and mineral springs to create the cold water fountains of Atlantis. There were mountain villages, whimsical precipitous cliffs on the side of the sea, very fertile land, vast canal systems, two harvests per year, all the metals required for coating the walls and creating the temples, palaces and statues described as having existed in the Citadel of Atlantis. There was an abundant variety of flora and fauna, including bulls, horses, mammoths and even orchards of chestnut trees.

Flying Eagle and Whispering Wind have published a theory regarding the devastating flood that destroyed Atlantis, which they call THE GREAT ATLANTIS FLOOD, One Terrible Day and Night of Misfortune; the extraordinary inundation of Atlantis and Attica. Their theory proposes that, with over one third of Europe draining into the land-locked Black Sea, at the end of the Younger Dryas, the level of the Black Sea rose to within 20 meters of its current level. A devastating earthquake and resulting tsunami increased the hydraulic pressure on a proposed subterranean outflow channel, flowing beneath the Bosporus land bridge and the present day Sea of Marmara and northern Aegean Sea, causing this subterranean channel to catastrophically rupture, generating the “extraordinary inundation” of Attica. The Island of Atlantis, Attica and lands of the Hellenes were all destroyed by the catastrophe and resulting widespread disease. This event created the necessity to re-locate ancient Athens from where it was located before the war with Atlantis. The Egyptian priest described the re-founding of Athens as occurring at the same time as the destruction of Atlantis.

Their websites are beautifully illustrated by Maui multi-media artist, Ernist Nelson.

For more info visit their website: http://atlantis-motherland.com New updates are available at http://atmo.info.

References:

Abrupt Climate Change: GDGC, NOAA, http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/abrupt.html

Manifestations of young tectonic activity in the southern Azov and Kerch fault zones (Crimea), A. A. Nikonov Joint Institute of Physics of the Earth, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow. GEOTECTONICS, English Translation, VOL. 28, NO. 5, APRIL 1995, Russian Edition: SEPTEMBER-OCTOBER 1994. http://eos.wdcb.rssi.ru/transl/geot/9405/pap02.htm

NEWEST TECTONICS OF THE KERCH PENINSULA (Russian). Аркадий Вениаминович ТЕВЕЛЕВ, НОВЕЙШАЯ ТЕКТОНИКА КЕРЧЕНСКОГО ПОЛУОСТРОВА (note: this site displays photos of some of the 42 mud volcanoes on the eastern Kerch peninsula; showing natural geological circular formations.) http://geo.web.ru/~tevelev/kerch.htm

LATE GLACIAL GREAT FLOOD IN THE BLACK SEA AND CASPIAN SEA, TCHEPALYGA, Andrey, Institute of Geography, Russian Academy of Science, 29, Staromonetniy per, Moscow 109017 Russia. http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_63243.htm

THE ALTAI FLOOD. Keenan Lee, 4 October 2004. http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:LV1I2rbyQJEJ:www.mines.edu/academic/geology/faculty/klee/altai.doc&hl=en

VULNERABILITY TO EARTHQUAKES IN UKRAINE, I.I.Rokityansky, Institute of Geophysics, Ukraine. http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/RMS/july2000/Papers/absroki.pdf

Map of Kerch faults. East Oil Company, http://www.eastoil.com/graphics/11az.jpg

Maps of Aegean Trough (Proposed ancient subterranean channel beneath the Sea of Marmara): http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/01/07/images/Piraeus_earthquake_map.jpg and http://geography.lancs.ac.uk/cemp/publications/images/dambaluk_Aegean_map.jpg

Climate Science: Investigating Climatic and Environmental Processes, Abrupt Climate Change: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/abrupt.html

Marmara depths image: http://www.cdf.u-3mrs.fr/~henry/marmara/marmara_big.jpg, www.cdf.u-3mrs.fr/~henry/ marmara/marmaraVT.html

Late Glacial-Holocene palaeoceanography of the Sea of Marmara: timing of connections with the Mediterranean and the Black Seas. Authors: Cagatay M.N.; Gorur N.; Algan O.; Eastoe C.; Tchapalyga A.; Ongan D.; Kuhn T.; Kuscu I. Source: Marine Geology, 15 July 2000, vol. 167, no. 3, pp. 191-206(16) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V6M-40NNKD0-1&_coverDate=07%2F15%2F2000&_alid=291519789&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5818&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4b94fd1aae963d3909ee7ed95cf2f026

Persistent Holocene Outflow from the Black Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean Contradicts Noah's Flood Hypothesis, (OUTFLOW DELTA AT THE SOUTHERN BOSPHORUS EXIT) Ali E. Aksu, GSA Today: Vol. 12, No. 5, pp. 4–10. http://www.gsajournals.org/gsaonline/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1130%2F1052-5173(2002)012%3C0004:PHOFTB%3E2.0.CO%3B2

Lost city found on unsunken part of lost continent
http://202.186.86.35/special/lostcity/

Antarctica
plz someone will delete that sentence. If I write an internet site about Atlantis in the moon, in the next day, it will be here also? Interresting. I must test it. -Pedro 19:20, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Strange Ideas"
Does this section even need to be in here? It's very poorly written and adds little or nothing to the article.
 * Remove it. The editor that contributed also added a useless paragraph to the Mars article. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 13:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please read "The Ancient Secret of The Flower of Life" book 1 & 2

and one more less stupid theory
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1554594.stm http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/template.cfm?name=Atlantis

If plato speak about it, it is more likely to be near greece.

"Jacques Collina-Girard, from the University of the Mediterranean in Aix-en-Provence, says it could have been sited on an island close to the Strait of Gibraltar, and would have vanished below the waves about 11,000 years ago - just as Plato said it did.

Collina-Girard's evidence is based on a study of sea levels that prevailed as the last Ice Age was ending. His assessment of the coral reef data shows the coastline off the southernmost tip of Spain and around Gibraltar 19,000 years ago to have been 130 metres (422 feet) below what it is today.

This would have exposed an archipelago, with an island at the spot where Plato reported Atlantis to be in his work Timaeus.

Nobody seems to have to have thought of the clearest indication given by Plato - that of an island at the mouth of the Pillars of Hercules" end of the quote

proper place for conspiracies to run free
trying to get a conspiracy based wiki up and running. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiconspiracy. check it out, add input. most of all help me get it running (I'm kinda amature over here)--Matt D 02:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

America America America
People are so American-centric that even in the case of Atlantis they manage to put that in debate, reaching almost the ridicule. I think that the guy that wrote that should go in a boat from Greece to the US. This article needs NPOV, when a reasonable guy starts reading the article imidiatly thinks: "what an impossibility." Lets talk about the Iberian Findings and those from Greece. The only ones that are credible and not from a book that wants to sell in the USA. And take of all that non-sence, or manage to put it has a curiosity. -Pedro 02:35, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Locations
can we sort the location theories by region, please? so that we have the places actually known to the Ancient Greeks in one place, and the crackpot theories of Cuba/America/Indonesia in another? Can we also compact the horrible, unwikified, fawning India/Indonesia paragraph cut down to at most a quarter of its present length? dab 17:08, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * +1 I agree. Marcok 22:58, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have stumbled upon this site. Which claims to have found the true Atlantis in the Meditranian. They have Maps and 3D animations of the locations. the link to their site is. http://www.discoveryofatlantis.com/800/index.html aquaris
 * thanks god, i'm not the only one that has brains in here. I would reduce the info about Cuba/America/Indonesia/India/Sri lanka to just one paragraph and stating that all these theories are very highly unlikely. The Spanish theory of the golf of Cadiz is very promissing and fit almost in everything. I think people should know that in the 18 century (???) there was found ancient pottery in the Azores, and the pottery travelled to mainland Portugal, nothing more is known about that, it is lost since then. -Pedro 20:10, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * ...and here I thought that the "real" City of Atlantis was in the Pegasus Galaxy! Silly me! VigilancePrime 06:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC) (that's a reference to the TV show Stargate: Atlantis for those who didn't get the joke)

Locations
Deleted the reference to Riven the Seer under the Mid-Atlantic section. Confusing, poor grammer, and seemingly blatent nonsence added by one guy in order to express his particular viewpoint. Perhaps someone can rework it.

It's been up since Jul 29. Surprised it last that long untouched.

As here:

The modern day legendary Riven, The Seer, proposes Atlantis to be a mid-sized Continental island in the Atlantic Ocean based out of the Amperes/Gettysburg Seamounts that was destroyed in several stages from Asteroid and Meteoric showers combined with a major Transform Fracture adjacent to the Atlantic Ridge.In 1979 a Russian expedition team found traces of a civilization at the Amperes Seamount which was published in the New York Times. The final catastrophe occuring at 6482 bC for the time also of the Great Flood that pushed civilizations into the eastern mediterranean. Later Atlantis controlling it's foundations up to Tyrhennia and Egypt from their Lake Tritonis Region no later than 1500 bC. Riven also translated the 10 Kings of Atlantis and the meaning of the name Atlantis into Fatherland and discovered the word Araklum in Etruscan scripts that relates to the mysterious Orichalcum element found in Atlantis. He argues that this battle must have been prior to 3100 bC and that the Narmer Palette and Gebel-Arak knife(4000 bC.), found in Egypt prior to King Menes(3100 bC), is evidence of an earlier foreign Sea-People invasion. His destruction theory is also based on the Eye of Ra Myth, the eruptions of Mt.Hekla and Mt.Vesuvius,the ecliptic alignment of planets on Nov 1,6482 bC, All Saints Day, and the flooding of the Black Sea from the Bosphorous straites opening. He has quite the visual website detailing Atlantis, it's location and maps with a list of the Ten kings of Atlantis and links to research sites about Atlantis called Tribes of Atlantis by Riven. The Atlantis story is a retelling by Plato and not a myth as many scholars attest because of Plato and his idealistic philosophies. The Original authors were Solon and Dropides who told the story to Critias elder who told it to Critias junior. Critias detailed the story to Socrates where it was later adapted by Plato. In 570 bC, in the time of Pharaoh Amasis, the extremely elderly Egytian Priest, realizing the end of Egypt was near, let the secret of Atlantis finally fall from his well guarded lips. --Ailric 17:51, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think that info is very useful, why delete it? Keep it in the article and remove the stupid info about India and Indonesia. Keep that info. BTW who is Riven? -Pedro 20:16, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Here's the deal: Some theories of "Atlantis" are patently rediculous. The idea of there being an entire continent in the middle of the Atlantic is positively preposterous, for the simple reason that there are two oceanic plates there which are parting from one another. An island, yes; a continent, no. Also, it is very POV - "myth" is one of the strongest theories there is for Atlantis, and stating "it is not a myth" is PoV. The other problem is, of course, the numerous poor assumptions, including the final sentence. Also, the whole thing is unsourced. Riven, the Seer? Its the name of a Myst sequel, but otherwise I've never heard of them. A link to them, or to their webpage, or whatever would be nice. If someone can source and salvage (i.e. NPOVify it), then I'd have no problem with it being in the article as it is (sadly) less crazy than several theories regarding Atlantis (anything involving extraterrestrials/another hidden/lost race comes to mind). Titanium Dragon 23:02, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would focus attention on the Spanish findings (an island near Cadiz). The pillars of Herculis are the pillars of Herculis aka Gibraltar. I believe in the ancient Greeks, they were not dumb. They manage to put their gods and myths, but at the end there is always had some truth behind it. I also think that many theories are very sad and low-minded and make Atlantis seeming ridiculous. I would keep that in the article, NPOV it, making it a sharp curiosity it could help in an investigation, it seems to have real myths, and real myths are always helpful. places that deserve attention: -Pedro 19:00, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * There are in Portugal some very old myths that Portugal was to Atlantis, the same that North Africa to Southern Europe (these myths are not very credible, they are supositions by some investigators). Also, It depends what you consider a continent. The Azores has ancient and enormous volcanoes (so they were very active in the past). Imagine the area of the Azores with much less water, it would create a 'continent' smaller than Europe, but has big has Turkey. Even if that info is crazzy it keept my atention, India and Indonesia did not. The Alien thing, oh God!
 * 1) Golf of Cadiz
 * 2) Cyprus
 * 3) Santorini
 * 4) Azores
 * 5) The Black Sea

Huh??
" Proclus tells us that Crantor reported that he, too, had seen the columns on which the story of Atlantis was preserved as reported by Plato: the Saite priest showed him its history in hieroglyphic characters."


 * Ok. According to one person, someone else saw some columns.  Were these physical marble-type columns like the ruins of Athens?  Either something was written physically on those columns or else a story was written about those columns, which was reported by someone else to someone else.  Please clarify this sentence. - Omegatron 01:59, May 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * Also there are like twelve different lands mentioned in this paragraph. Is one of these supposed to be related to Atlantis?  Please break them up into separate paragraphs if this island and this island and this other land are all separate mentions by separate people. - Omegatron 02:03, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

"the Atlanteans were Hyperboreans were Nordic supermen who originated on the North pole"


 * This article almost needs a cleanup tag. - Omegatron 02:30, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

Plato
Plato is a bullshit artist extraordinaire. We rely on him greatly--unfortunately because he's often our only source, either because others (such as Socrates) didn't leave writings of their own, or because other writings were lost or deliberately destroyed over the centuries.

Just because Plato passed on some rumor doesn't mean that the details are true--or even that the rumor wasn't just some story he made up to illustrate a point. Remember, this is the same guy who said that humans (the heterosexual kind, that is) were created as hermaphrodites and split into male and female by Zeus to confound them, and the guy who said that Achilles and Patroklos was the greatest love story of all time--which may be an interesting interpretation but certainly isn't to be found in the Iliad. He also has an inflated sense of his own importance, as described in his cave parable and expounded upon in The Republic.

Finding destroyed civilizations in the Mediterranean Sea is a fascinating exploit and more power to those who carry it out. But let's have some perspective here. Even if Plato did hear something that had a kernel of truth to it (e.g., the Sardinia theory is correct), he has absolutely NOTHING valuable to say about it! All Plato gives the archeologists working in the field is the buzzword "Atlantis" which they can bring up in conferences to raise the profile of their research and possibly bring in more grant money. For that, let him be praised. For everything else, ignore him--he's full of bunk.


 * On a related note, I tried to clean up the Plato section this morning - I didn't remove the "needs help" notice 'cause I wanted to let others decide if it's at least readable now. I did NOT try to add or subtract, just enhance the readability. (It's late and I can't sleep...so I did some work.) VigilancePrime 06:50, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * In case anyone is keeping track, I tried to tidy the explanation of the Timaeus and Critias dialogues up a bit. It seems a little more mention could be made of the actual context, that is, that these dialogues were clearly meant as a fictional, philosophical work and a continuation of Plato's Republic.  The war of Atlantis vs Athens (which Plato never wrote which the surviving Critias dialogue is leading up to) was meant to demonstrate the strength of the perfect society developed in the Republic (Athens) against a society representing the opposite values (Atlantis).  Furthermore, the dialogue itself was not based on any real conversation; Critias was Plato's grandfather and probably did not converse with Socrates; meanwhile, the dramatic date of the dialogues is many decades before 360 BC, and the supposed conversation takes place when Plato was only a few years old.  This is normal form for Plato, as is his insistance that the story is "true"; he says this before all his "tales" even ones that are obviously false.  I'd put all this in myself, but I haven't yet figured out how to format entries well and someone else may be able to do it better.

Plato Pt. 2, and general grumbles
Not to mention that he only invented Atlantis in the first place as a ficitonal example of a society destroyed by its own behavior. This page needs big help. It's so POV, it's not even funny. Maybe there's a statement somewhere here about mainstream historians' (and archaeologists', geologists', etc.) opinion on this topic (I.E. that atlantis never existed), but I am not about to sort through all the cruft to get there. I may take a crack at cleaning this one up soon.

To any atlantis-believers who may be bothered by my skeptical attitude - don't worry! even though I think atlantis is a myth in the most literal sense of the word, i also think that all of the varied opinions and stories about it are what makes it interesting - and i'll treat everything in an npov, respectful manner and avoid stepping on toes). Basically, I plan to increase the size of the introduction, and include the academic consensus promeniently, but leave in as many of the other theories as I can - removing only those that are written with irredeemably bad style or do not come from notable published works (using a very low threshold for notability).

It will probably take me a long time to get around to doing this. ZacharyS 03:44, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Dates
Since all of OUR information derives from Plato, perhaps the dates he was writing these works would be important to state? As it is, it's not even mentioned until much later in the Modern Revival section, where one can do the math and get the time period. This is a rather clumsy way of doing things. CFLeon 00:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This page
Can "someone" set it up so that it can be viewed on a normal screen rather than having to scroll left and right?

Given that Plato was writing from the eastern end of the Mediterranean, geography towards the far west might have been a bit fluid.

From various sources it appears that stories of eg the Thera eruption and the destruction of the Cretan civilisation might well have contributed to the development of Atlantis as an idea - a process of syncreticism might well apply.

Pseudohistory
This article needs to be re-written. It presents pseudohistory as actual history. Plato used Atlantis as an allegory for a moral message, as he was fond of doing (The Republic), and people started taking it literally. Now, New Agers have taken it as a myth of theirs, even though it is fiction and was intended to be recieved as such. This is mind-boggling. As Carl Sagan explained in his book The Demon-Haunted World, there is absolutely no evidence for Atlantis and there never has been. Maprovonsha172 17:09, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Nonsensical
Which parts are nonsensical? not that I am defending the "existence" of Atlantis, I just want to know which parts need improvement or are disputed. --Revolución (talk) 00:26, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Plato's account
did Plato's account mention natural or divine causes as the reason Atlantis was destroyed? Or were the divine elements of the story added later? --Revolución (talk) 19:20, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

'Other locations'
''50,000 to 10,000 years ago, the oceans were 100 meters (300 feet) shallower and the world's offshore continental plateaus were exposed and dry. Glaciers held the difference in ice located mostly in interior highlands. It is hypothesized that global climate may have stabilized between arctic highlands and tropical seas (at least along the equator); and that Atlantis was not one city, but a global, nautical civilization whose cities ringed every continent along these lowland plains. When enough ice melted to top off the oceans, often catastrophically (thousand foot tsunamis coming from inland, volcanoes, earthquakes, 40 day rains, etc.), this civilization was smashed and drowned completely. What little we recall of it, we call Atlantis. ''

this is highly speculative and unlikely. Would anyone support removal of this section? --Revolución (talk) 23:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and deleted it. --C-squared 03:13, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Moving content to individual pages
This article is getting too long and unwiedly. I have moved some the content to a new page. It doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be cleaned up, but hopefully will be in more manageable chunks. Reflex Reaction 19:39, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I have also removed many of the representations of Atlantis. It's a popular myth, every single show or book that mentions Atlantis unless it is a significant part of the story doesn't need to be listed. Individual episodes of TV shows are not noteworthy, those can be put into an individual article or show synopses, not here. Reflex Reaction 20:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I have moved some of the lengthy POV discussion to an archive page. Reflex Reaction 18:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

discussion of multiple pages on "lost lands"
Should we merge the articles Lost Lands, Lost city, Phantom island together?

And one more thing: do you think the title Mu (lost continent) is appropriate because it's probably not actually a real lost continent. Should it be Mu (legendary continent) or Mu (mythical continent? --Revolución (talk) 15:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree about the merge. I also suggest that another article created apart called List of lost lands. Regarding Mu, I think Mu (mythical continent) would be the right title. Cheers -- Svest 14:35, 1 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

New article
I've just created a new article Atlantis in fiction that I had to split from this main article. -- Svest 00:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

Atlantis and Sumeria
Is possible that Atlantis of Platon was Sumeria, in anteluvian era?

--Ionn 20:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Selling website

 * I removed, now twice, a link to atlan.org as it tells nothing about Atlantis but only seeks to sell a book. I do not believe that it is appropriate here, and after comparing it to other links on the Atlantis page, I believe that judgement to be correct.
 * IF someone would like to COMMENT on why this link should be there, we can discuss it here and come to a consensus. Until then, it will continue to be removed.
 * On a side note, it is listed under location THEORIES, and yet the site seems to assert that they have found it and everyone else is wrong. I think that's a secondary conflict and would seek resolution to that as well.)
 * VigilancePrime 19:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Atlantic ocean Atlantis and the Vertical tectonics
The section data is not 'original research' as all the sentences are well documented on sources and adds nothing more to those same sources, either esoteric or scientific peer-reviewed (presented below on the references section); as so, I'm going to revert your edition/erasion as it has no grounds. --GalaazV 23:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC) Also it contains sourced information on authors and publications about Atlantida, not yet available in this article earlier editions and as so is not 'innapropriated'. --GalaazV 23:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if sourced (and there seems to be only one person in that regard), the text you placed in this article is just a diatribe in favor of vertical tectonics, and puts forward no theory on the location of Atlantis nor an explicit explanation of what happenned to it and when. As it adds no useful information on the topic of Atlantis itself, it is inappropriate.  BTW - If you are David Pratt, then you should see the guideline WP:AUTO. --EMS | Talk 23:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, but it adds useful info as you may read, in the section and in the sources, that are not available at the article. By the way, the majority is not always correct, as any of us can see by looking to our history (even in recent events). As so I put it here if someone really wants to know and perhaps investigate valuable data on this topic, myth as some regard it, which goes through different cultures and civilizations. --GalaazV 00:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)