Talk:Attack on the NKVD Camp in Rembertów

AK
We have a bit of a problem here. Armia Krajowa was officially dissolved on January 19, 1945. In May, 1945 former Home Army units that continued to fight would have operated under a different name. This needs to be cleared up. Balcer 02:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You are right, but these were soldiers of AK. Besides, not all units obeyed the order of dissolution. Anyway, I will clear it up as much as I can Tymek 03:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the complications, but let's fix it, lest the article give the wrong impression that the AK as such still existed. Anyway, it is simply a fact that the AK proper never (as far as I know) fought with official Soviet forces, in fact it was dissolved to prevent precisely that from occuring. Balcer 03:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I am checking sources available to me and all I see is AK. The article in Gazeta Polska mentions dissolution of AK in January 1945, however the author, Henryk Gojski, uses phrase "AK soldiers" in description of this event Tymek 15:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we know for certain that the AK no longer existed. "Former AK soldiers" is the only formulation that is fully accurate here. Balcer 17:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

What's in a name?
I find it problematic that Jan Smuga-Domański is non-googleable. Can people knowledgeable of him check the name's spelling? Digwuren 14:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He was/is a local poet from Rembertow, unknown in Poland.I came across this name while writing the article, otherwise I had never heard of him Tymek 17:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, so no one has heard of him, and presumably no one has heard of the poem, then why do we include it then? It should only be in the article if it is notable.  Plus there are possible unresolved copyright issues.  So, in my opinion, removing it will only improve the article. Balcer 17:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I put the poem to enrich the article, but feel free to remove it Tymek 18:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The poem is interesting, but just too little known to be included here. If you like, we can simply mention it and its author, without quoting it in full.  Actually, in terms of legacy, I am quite curious as to how this event is commemorated in Poland.  Is there a monument dedicated to it, for example?  That should definitely be discussed, if possible. Balcer 18:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not from Rembertow and I have no idea how this event is commemorated. BTW, I came across a very interesting page about this camp and its history, it may serve as grounds for further expansion of the article http://www.ipn.gov.pl/wai.php?serwis=pl&dzial=82&id=4543&poz=2 Tymek 19:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Monument in Rembertow
Balcer asked about a monument to commemorate the camp and the attack I found the photo of it, here http://www.rembertow.waw.pl/akrualnosci%20zdj/NKWD.jpg the monument was erected on MAy 21, 1995

and here is what the inscription says

W miejscu tym na terenie dawnej fabryki "Pocisk" znajdowały się obozy od września 1941 do początku 1944 - hitlerowski obóz pracy jeńców sowieckich - komando stalag 333 - od lipca 1944 do września 1944 - hitlerowski obóz pracy dla więźniów polskich - od września 1944 do lipca 1945 sowiecki obóz specjalny NKWD nr 10 Żołnierzom oddziału partyzanckiego Armii Krajowej Obozu "Mewa - Kamień" Mińsk Mazowiecki który pod dowództwem ppor. Edwarda Wasilewskiego "Wichury" nocą z 20 na 21 maja 1945 roku rozbił obóz specjalny NKWD nr 10 w Rembertowie. Z obozu uwolniono ponad 500 więźniów akcja ta przerwała zsyłkę więźniów na wschód. Więźniom obozu NKWD nr 10 w Rembertowie żołnierzom i działaczom Polskiego Państwa Podziemnego represjonowanym i mordowanym których szczątki spoczywają na terenie dawnej fabryki amunicji "Pocisk" i na obszarach sowieckiego imperium

Tymek 03:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Great work. Let me translate (roughly, with better flow in English as "monument" style is always convoluted):

In this place on the grounds of the former factory "Pocisk" the following camps were located: (The monument is dedicated to) the soldiers of the partisan unit of the Home Army from Camp "Mewa-Kamień" Mińsk Mazowiecki who under the command of 2nd lieutnant Edward Wasilewski "Wichura" overran the special NKVD camp No.10 in Rembertow on the night of 20/21 May, 1945. Over 500 prisoners were freed from the camp and this action interrupted the deportation of the prisoners to the East. (This monument is dedicated to) prisoners of NKVD camp No. 10 in Rembertow, soldiers and activists of the Polish Underground State, repressed and murdered, whose remains lay on the grounds of former factory "Pocisk" and in the lands of the Soviet empire. Balcer 03:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * from September 1941 until the beginning of 1944 - Nazi labor camp for Soviet prisoners of war - komando stalag 333
 * from July 1944 until September 1944 - Nazi labor camp for Polish prisoners
 * from September 1944 until July 1945 - Soviet NKVD special camp No. 10

Also, Polish Wiki has a nice and relevant article under pl:Zakłady Amunicyjne Pocisk Sp. Akc.. Balcer 04:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The photo could be temporarily uploaded under fair use, but hopefully we could get some pictures from our Warsaw Wikipedians...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion on the DYK page
I think the discussion that followed on the DYK page should be moved here. Perhaps some admin could do it Tymek 19:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Anybody can copy it at any time. I'd suggest to wait for until the nomination expires or is succesfull, and moving it then.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess the nomination has expired, so I am pasting the discussion here. Arguments put forward by two gentlemen were ungrounded and fabricated, yet their tactics to make as much noise as possible seems to work Tymek 13:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I will need to take them to my arsenal, then. Adoption of some others of the most famous techniques of Ghirlandajo, such as the infamous overtly aggressive stance, has already shown considerable promise in discussions with Soviet sympathisers.  One of the largest victories of this approach is that Petri Krohn appears to have given up trying to deface Estonia-related articles, at least directly.  Digwuren 15:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

...that in the May 1945 attack on the NKVD Camp in Rembertow, soldiers of the Home Army freed up to 1000 Poles, whom the Soviets planned to send to Siberia? self-nom by Tymek 20:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The page is filled to the brim with POV-language and has no reliable sources. It is in conflict with our core principles of verifiability and neutrality. --Ghirla-трёп- 13:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

what makes you think the sources are not reliable? Reasons please. It has been described in several articles and in several books. Obviously, Soviet sources never mentioned it, but you can't change history. Also - unfortunately, one of Home Army members, who took part in the attack, Captain Henryk Gojski, died on July 27, 2007, just a few weeks ago. Otherwise, I would try to get in touch with him and perhaps he could have convinced you that it really happened. Hope you are not the one to decide on DYK nominations. BTW, I would be grateful if you showed me examples of "POV-language" Tymek 13:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The validity of most if not sources is impossible to established. Some are clearly merely dubious web-sites. Also, the article is written in an intentionally POV-ed language. Even when sourced, can be featured without cleanup. --Irpen 01:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Sir, please show me examples of POV language. Use my talk page, littering here makes no sense Tymek 04:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

How about: "a daring this action of the anti-communist Polish resistance". BTW, the article also needs a lot of copyediting.--Carabinieri 01:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"Daring" removed. Anything else? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 12:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Are you kidding? "NKVD henchmen had free hand to do their bidding on Polish territories." Please read the article at least once, Piotrus. Most importantly, until an article about history it is based on sources such as essays on the modern newspaper article authored by a non-historian, essay on a web-site of the Przemysl Institute of Biotechnology, a book titled "Sowieckiemu zniewoleniu NIE", and a dubious web-site, sorry, it cannot be featured on the main page. --Irpen 13:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I npoved the henchmen statement. As for the sources, they satisfy our policies and make this DYK much better referenced then others. Unless there are some specific facts you'd like to question, or more npov statements I'd be happy to fix, I see nothing wrong with featuring this article. PS. Please stop removing the link to that article from others - as others noted, WP:IDONTLIKEIT should be avoided.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 14:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, the page was started as a way to inflame things, and Tymek does not make efforts to conceal that he has political axes to grind. I don't share the attitude of certain editors who view DYK/FAC as a way of trumpeting their POV across Wikipedia by hook or by crook. And I certainly find objectionable that hard links to it are being spammed across so many pages. This is poor editing practice, and advocating it betrays poor judgement. --Ghirla-трёп- 20:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The article is now at Attack on the NKVD Camp in Rembertów; are there still issues with POV or has this been sorted out? --Peta 00:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC) Please read it and decide for yourself. As an author of 139 DYKs I think it is a DYKable article, and the above criticism is an example of WP:IDONTLIKEIT - but I am sure Ghirla and Irpen will disagree. Hence, I ask any DYK-admin to simply read the article and decide for himself if it is DYKable material or not. Any comment by parties will be obviously biased, and no consensus will be reached in the short span of time left before this nomination expires (finally, please note no concerns have been raised on talk, only on this suggestion page).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 00:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I have read the article - and I have to say that it's hard for me to tell if this is a balanced account of the events since I can't check any of the sources as they are all written in Polish and the neutrality of those sources has been questioned by other editors. Is there an account of the event written from an observer without an obvious Polish/Russian bias that could be used to verify the article? --Peta 00:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

For obvious reasons the Polish and Soviet communist governments suppressed all public mention of this event while they were in power. They then all fell from power and disappeared into the dustbin of history, so it would be difficult to get the "other side" perspective of this event written after 1989. I do not see this as a problem though, since it is not the job of Wikipedia to give dead ideologies equal time. NPOV extends only to those opinions which are still held today, not those that some may have held in the past. Balcer 04:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not about political axes to grind, as Ghirla called it in such a gentlemanly fashion. It is about largely unknown part of history of Eastern Europe. No decent German would object to an article called "Attack on SS camp in town of X", neither call it political after so many years, because this is history worthy mentioning. However - if there is anything written about Soviet crimes, some gentlemen always have problems with it. Nazi crimes have been described in thousands of articles. Soviet crimes are still waiting. I will state it again - you cannot change history by coming up with fabricated objections Tymek 13:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

A few English refs has now been added. As Tymek sais, it is not a very well known event, but it is certainly notable. As for the refs, there are plenty of academic books in Polish ([1]) - unfortunatly our access to them is rather limited. But current refs, including Davies and Piotrowski (respected Western academics) should be enough.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 17:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Setting aside the axes, if any, the article is unacceptable. The reference's being of dubious reliability as explained above is a worse problem than their being from "one side" as Balcer puts it, be those anonymous essays about history at the web-site of the biological institution, non-historian written article about history in a non-historic newspaper, book under a provocative title or a web-site just like you and I can start for a nominal fee written but an uncredited author. Further, numerous examples of unencyclopedic POV-language pointed above confirm that. Piotrus addressing them sentence by sentence and asking "what else?" is a joke. --Irpen 17:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Setting aside the axes, what do you want, Dear Irpen? Do you think that you will change history by claiming this article is unacceptable? Do you think you can erase what happened? Do you think that the monument in Rembertow is a fake one? I bet that this event has not been even mentioned in Soviet sources, for obvious reasons. The question is - what do you suggest? Deletion of the article is unacceptable, or else I will lose faith in "free encyclopedia" Tymek 18:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC) If you cannot show other POVed statements, then it is your criticism that is a joke (or, as was mentioned before, a 'I don't like it' argument). As for the dubious reliability of the refs we have: 2 books by Western academics (Davies, Piotrowski) and 1 book by Polish academics (Sowieckiemu zniewoleniu Nie...); an article in a online science popular magazine (Zwoje) by historian and writer (Kobos); a publication by reliable NGO on a pages of a Polish research institute, and 3 articles in notable Polish newspapers. Irpen's claims that the article is thus based on "sources of dubious reliability" doesn't hold any merit (particulary when his criticism is based on arguments like "book under a provocative title..."). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

On my first glance over the article, I can spot a few "bias buzzwords", such as the classification of prisoners at the camp as "Polish patriots" and the Polish Committee of National Liberation as a "puppet government". Both may well be true, but without any knowledge on the subject, and given the vociferous arguments above, I'm a bit leery about moving it forward. Your mileage may vary. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 22:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, the term Polish patriots is not biased, as the people imprisoned there had before fought the Germans for years, putting their lives in danger almost every day, and the only purpose of their fight was independent Poland. If such people are not patriots, I have no idea who can be called one. As for "puppet government", let me quote Norman Davies, from his book "Rising'44", page 153: "The commitee was a classic case of a puppet Government imported in the baggage train of a conquering army" Tymek 05:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Tymek, both terms seem pretty accurate and neutral in this context.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 14:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Why to quote the same page from two editions of Rising'44 ?
Xx236 (talk) 09:54, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

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