Talk:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump/Archive 6

Transcript of what was picked up on mic
Should we include a transcript of the shooting in the article? It was picked up by the microphones on the podium and I think it provides important information. We include cockpit voice recorders in many airline crashes and in the article for Reagan's attempt we include the full audio of secret service radio traffic. As we are unlikely to get that, this is the closest we have until then. Should we include it?

CNN and Florida Today provide slightly differing transcripts of what is said by Trump and the agents but I still think including parts of it helps the reader understand the immediate efforts made by the secret service to keep their protectee safe.

PaulRKil (talk) 16:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No it adds nothing to our understanding of the event. Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I disagree, I think it provides context to the efforts the secret service made to keep their protectee safe particularly when they will be put under a microscope and people will be coming to this article for information. PaulRKil (talk) 16:58, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That is wp:or, we do not interperate wp:primary sources. Nor does it in fact say anything about any mistakes they may have made (or exonerate them). Slatersteven (talk) 17:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Other than it being slightly funny Trump was so concerned about his shoes, I don't think this really adds anything to the article. Scu ba (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not funny in my point of view but if it’s anything, I think it shows his refusal to listen to the demands of the people sworn to protect his life in these very circumstances. When the secret service will be examined for what they did and didn’t do, I think us including this in the article helps demystify what the SS was trying to do in that very moment. PaulRKil (talk) 17:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Lmao you actually think when the internal review of the Secret Service happens that director Kimberly Cheatle is going to read off the wikipedia page. This actually made my day, maybe the funniest thing I read all week. Scu ba (talk) 02:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I honestly think this is the fifth or sixth discussion that has involved the shoes. As suggested above, it was possibly trauma related.  --Super Goku V (talk) 07:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I suspect his concern was not for his shoes, per se, but for the fact he did not wish to walk unshod. Marcus Markup (talk) 19:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Trump was trained at a "military high-school campus" thingy.--Good for him for not wanting to walk around in America, hobo-style (or without shoes).--Politician's wearing shirt and shoes, is a good thing. 2001:2020:355:9EBD:A520:1AE7:A49C:5216 (talk) 19:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

"Fight fight fight"
Did he actually shout the words "Fight fight fight", or did he just mouth them? Sources which aim to recount precisely what happened on stage say he only mouthed these words, for example: and. And if you listen to the video, you can hear voices on stage before and after he pumps his fist, and you can hear Trump himself say "wait, wait, wait" to his guards, but you certainly cannot hear him vocalise the words "fight fight fight". I feel the evidence is stronger that he mouthed them, but even when I change it to "mouthed or shouted" others are reverting it back to "shouted" - what do others think? Liguer (talk) 00:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * lets be real, he shouted it, crowd was loud, he was not next to the microphone, so it was not heard out loud on the speakers. Bohbye (talk) 00:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Misinformation in recollections about Crooks

 * Recollections about Crooks from peers relating to his high school persona, political views, and biographical information have varied considerably and are inconsistent with one another.

That statement appears nowhere in the cited source, and not just that, the statement is completely and totally at odds with the cited source that says "Former classmate describes Trump rally gunman as ‘definitely conservative'". So no inconsistency at all. Please fix this nonsense. Viriditas (talk) 00:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That one (just one) classmate considers the shooter "conservative" is not grounds to stop the presses and issue an EXTRA! edition. Some people think Obama was conservative, for example. Marcus Markup (talk) 00:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You are apparently not listening or reading for comprehension. Nothing in the cited source supports the text.  I will now remove it. Viriditas (talk) 00:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Your edit deleted a reference definition that was used elsewhere in the article, so I replaced it. I did not verify those usages of the reference -- maybe it was your intention to remove to other statements this reference supported, but maybe it wasn't. -- Mikeblas (talk) 01:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Removed text is found below:
 * Recollections about Crooks from peers relating to his high school persona, political views, and biographical information have varied considerably and are inconsistent with one another.


 * The cited source does not support this statement. Viriditas (talk) 00:37, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I had created a section above at to raise the same issue. One other editor there (Kingsif) also questioned including this, another (IP) editor said "Perhaps best to remove that stuff," and no one has tried to defend using that source in that way, so I think there's a pretty clear consensus to remove this as that source was being used incorrectly. Elspea756 (talk) 01:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Neighbor reports Trump signs outside Crooks home
Forbes writes that a neighbor witnessed pro-Trump signs appearing periodically outside of Crooks' home over the past several years. Unclear if from parents or him. KiharaNoukan (talk) 22:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that looks like a good source for the article for that as well as other information. It contains a good summary of classmates' descriptions as well. Elspea756 (talk) 23:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * A picture posted on the lawn, might have c. nothing to do with the shooter.--Leave it out of the article, unless things are very clear about how the shooter was involved. 2001:2020:337:9E1E:3940:1C6A:CE6E:B887 (talk) 05:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Rename
Should be called something akin to "Butler Assassination Attempt" or "Butler Trump Rally Incident" as attempts on his life are not new. ManOfDirt (talk) 00:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * This is fairly standard Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan and others. This is the only attempt that went that far. Bohbye (talk) 00:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You're both correct, but ManOfDirt has a point. See GTD:
 * 06/18/2016: An assailant attempted to assassinate presidential candidate Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Las Vegas, Nevada, United States. The assailant was arrested as he tried to remove a gun from the holster of a police officer. Michael Steven Sandford claimed responsibility for the incident. Sandford stated that he targeted Trump because he believed "somebody had to stand up for America" and told the Secret Service that he had planned for over a year to assassinate Trump.
 * 09/19/2020: An assailant mailed a letter containing ricin addressed to President Donald Trump at the White House in Washington, District of Columbia, United States. The letter, which also contained an explicit death threat against President Trump, was intercepted by security officials. Pascale Ferrier, a Canadian citizen, was arrested for sending the letter as she attempted to illegally cross into the United States from Canada with an automatic weapon. A Twitter account linked to Ferrier included similar language to the ricin letter, including calling the President “an ugly tyrant clown.” Ferrier has also been charged with sending a second ricin letter to a police station in Mission, Texas, United States out of personal enmity after being deported in 2019 for an expired visa and weapons charges.
 * If there are quite a few entries, then yes, we should have a single, general page of some kind, perhaps pointing to this article. Viriditas (talk) 01:01, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Security incidents involving Donald Trump have a forklift for god's sake. They all got kinda close. Put simple, this isn't unqiue. Besides, "Assassination attempt on Donald Trump" is quite unoriginal. ManOfDirt (talk) 01:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * A forklift? Wouldn’t that be kind of slow-moving? Viriditas (talk) 01:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Most forklifts I've driven could outrun a guy if you really wanted to (although probably not an athlete). I would personally not pick one as a melee weapon, but I imagine it'd be pretty hard to stop, because even though they aren't that big, the counterweight is solid iron and they weigh like ten thousand pounds. jp×g🗯️ 03:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It definitely should not be called '"Butler assassination attempt'"; egads, that sounds like a bad mystery pulp. As with many things on Wikipedia, we can put a name on the most visible example even if there are things of similar names. This is rather more severe than "guy who doesn't have a gun and likely never used one tries to grab one" (the Vegas incident.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Current title seems fine to me. Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I might be convinced to rename to something like Trump Rally Assassination Attempt or 2024 Trump Attempted Assassination Attempt; but given the prominence of this event and notability; that'd certainly be an interesting discussion. Absolutely opposed to something obscure like "Butler Assassination Attempt" or "Incident". Who/What/Where is Butler? What's an incident? Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it unlikely this title will be changed unless there's a different security issue later. I'm glad we have one page about all the various incidents. Gives us a place to redirect minor situations if they arise. BusterD (talk) 11:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Widow of killed bystander
Trump called her yesterday. Please mention in article. . 152.130.15.107 (talk) 13:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Should we also mention Biden called her? Slatersteven (talk) 14:01, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And that she refused to take his call? Bohbye (talk) 14:06, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, lets have all the facts, if its relevant. Slatersteven (talk) 14:12, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Trivia. No. Zaathras (talk) 14:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Issue with "Recollections from classmates about Crooks's political views have varied considerably"
The article currently says "Recollections from classmates about Crooks's political views have varied considerably," sourced to The Guardian article "Former classmate describes Trump rally gunman as ‘definitely conservative’." The article describes three classmates's recollections 1) quoting a classmate saying "definitely conservative," 2) paraphrasing another classmate as saying "does not recall Crooks making political overtures," and 3) saying that another student "did not share any classes with Crooks" and making no description of political views, instead describing "hunting outfits ... bullied ... outcast." Based on this, I don't think "recollections [of] Crooks's political views varied considerably" is an accurate description here, since the recollections only vary from "definitely conservative" to "does not recall." Any thoughts on this? Is there another source that would support a "varied considerably" description? Or should this description be clarified to accurately describe the range of "varied" recollections? As written, it sounds like the source is reporting "some said he was conservative, others said he was progressive," when the source says "some said he was definitely conservative, others did not know." Elspea756 (talk) 21:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * From your assessment it sounds like "varied considerably" is referring to one classmate saying he was outwardly political and another classmate saying he seemed apolitical, but given the state of US politics, I agree the sentence in the article does make it seem like classmates placed him at different positions on the left-right political spectrum.
 * My bigger concern with it, however, is that we are using a sample size of two classmates. Even the layperson knows that's not useful data, and it's just being used by news media to paint a picture. So is it good for use on Wikipedia? And within the context of other sources using solid facts (not classmate recollections) to discuss his political attitudes, is it necessary? Because to be accurate we'd have to say "One classmate recalled him as "definitely conservative", while another felt he was not political", and does that add to a reader's understanding, within the whole section? Kingsif (talk) 22:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree that the sample size isn't huge, but we should reflect what the source says. I agree that the phrasing here should be rewritten; the thrust of the Guardian article is that a classmate of Crooks remembers him as "definitely conservative" (it's literally the headline). It goes on to talk to another peer who remembers him as being apolitical and quiet, and then circles back to the first person who remembers a mock debate where Crooks had conservative beliefs. I don't believe that "contradictory" and "seemingly diverging" are an accurate reflection of what the Guardian is saying overall.
 * Maybe something like (in third paragraph under "Perpetrator"): "Public records have not given any clear indication of Crooks's views; there are no known posts on social media websites or writings indicating his ideology. Authorities have stated that it is unknown what his political views were, or whether the assassination attempt was related to them. He was a registered Republican; his voter registration had been active since September 2021, the month he turned 18. A former classmate remembers Crooks as "definitely conservative," though another remembers him not political. Federal campaign finance records show that on January 20, 2021, when he was 17, Crooks donated $15 to a voter turnout group, the Progressive Turnout Project, through a platform called ActBlue, which is used by Democrats and progressive organizations. On the day of the assassination attempt, Crooks was wearing a T-shirt from Demolition Ranch, a firearms YouTube channel. The FBI said that there had been "no indication of any mental health issues" regarding Crooks. Itsasatire (talk) 14:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd say that's an improvement, but I'd be careful interpreting what the article says. The article ays "does not recall Crooks making political overtures" which is not the same as "recalls Crooks as apolitical." The article just says the former classmate doesn't recall any political conversations. It's possible they were in a class where personal political views didn't come up, particularly with a quiet student. I'd say instead of paraphrasing which may introduce interpretations, just quote the article: "A former classmate remembers Crooks as 'definitely conservative,' though another 'does not recall Crooks making political overtures.'" Elspea756 (talk) 15:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, I agree direct quoting "does not recall..." is better. Itsasatire (talk) 15:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Good catch!--Another thing: a classmate in the USA, can mean as little as being in the same classroom for c. 50 minutes every week.--For now it might seem that few fellow-students have given examples of his political views. In other words we know next to nothing about his political views.--I am guessing that some RS say "inconclusive for now" about his political views.--Perhaps best to remove that stuff from the article for now; justification: cherry-pick. 2001:2020:345:8F1C:A988:66D7:49F8:2A69 (talk) 22:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Donald Trump assassination attempt
English experts, how about this shorter title? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Ambiguous. Makes it sound like Trump tried to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * HEY! IT SAYS ON WIKIPEDIA THAT TRUMP TRIED TO SHOOT SOMEONE ON FIFTH AVENUE!! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Why did the Secret Service not have jurisdiction over areas within shooting distance?
Currently, the "Background" section states:


 * Four separate counter-sniper teams were assigned to the event, two from the Secret Service and two from local law enforcement. The Pennsylvania State Police, which serves as the law enforcement agency for Connoquenessing Township, were also involved in security matters.

Notwithstanding the lack of citations in that excerpt, is there a concrete reason that State (or local) Police were assigned to secure the areas within shooting distance of the stage, and not the Secret Service? The extent to which the former tolerate people walking around with rifles (they do) is quite different than that of the Secret Service (they do not.) 141.239.252.245 (talk) 19:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Graphic should be changed to reflect Comperatore's death
this graphic says "critically injured Comperatore". He has died. FergusArgyll (talk) 07:21, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree for a change.Gilliebillie🤡 (talk) 09:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ✔️: BmboB has updated the image. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Location parameter
Whatever is going on in the Location parameter of the infobox, is it not excessive to list three lowest administrative units that are each unfamiliar to 99.9% of readers? Can't we just say "Butler Farm Show Grounds near Butler, Pennsylvania, U.S."? Why do we need to list three of these anyway? Super  Ψ   Dro  20:47, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Because it's a necessary level of detail, cities not being the lowest possible administrative unit. kencf0618 (talk) 10:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See for details.  --Super Goku V (talk) 20:07, 17 July 2024 (UTC)