Talk:Audie Murphy/Archive 5

DMY format
Per WT:WikiProject Military history:Military_dates_or_civilian_dates.3F, the U.S. military style DMY format is to be used on this article. Please do not change. — Maile (talk) 12:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Do not change dates, formatting or do rewrites of article
This article is FA. As discussed above, and many places elsewhere, the accepted date format is the military format of DMT. Do not change that. Do not do a rewrite of the article, after it has already been approved as FA. It does not need to be reworded at this point. If anyone has issues on this article, please discuss here. — Maile (talk) 13:17, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

U.S Army manual on dates, capitalization, etc.
In regards to some recent well-meaning edits and reverts, please see the U.S. Army CMH Style Guide 2011.pdf. Hope this information has been helpful. — Maile (talk) 22:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding dates, section 6.1 specifically says "Use the military day-month-year dating system (without punctuation)."
 * Regarding capitalization of ranks, section 1.47 specifically says "Lowercase military titles when standing alone, or when following a name."


 * One of the examples given in the U. S. Army manual as proper date usage is:
 * "On 1 August 2003 General Schoomaker succeeded General Shinseki as chief of staff."
 * The Army applies it to people. — Maile (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


 * See also MOS:MILTERMS. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  22:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022
Hello, please change the name of the Mountain that the plane crashed into to 'Brush Mountain' Brushy Mountain is nearby but is not the same mountain that was crashed into. Here is a USDA page stating that the mountain was Brush Mountain: https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/gwj/recarea?recid=73549/

Thanks! Normalrat420 (talk) 00:02, 15 October 2022 (UTC)


 * To add to the legitimacy of my suggestion, It could not possibly be Brushy Mountain as the crash report says that the crash was at the 2700 foot level, an elevation which Brushy Mountain never reaches (its peak sitting in the 2300s). The report says it is Brushy Mountain, but this must be an error in the report.
 * Link to report here: https://audiemurphy.com/documents/doc037/NTSBReport_06-15-72.pdf Normalrat420 (talk) 00:09, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * There are a number of sources that identify the crash site as Brushy Mountain, and a number of sources (including the VFW monument to Murphy) as Brush Mountain. Probably best to say in the body that the plane crashed on the side of a mountain, and use an extended footnote to explain that two different mountains are identified by various sources, including refs to those sources. Schazjmd   (talk)  00:13, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, the Brushy Mountain article has its peak at 3250 feet, while a contemporary news report says Brushy Mountain is 3065 feet. Schazjmd   (talk)  00:25, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The Brushy Mountain in the article linked is quite far from Roanoke. The closest Brushy Mountain, which is the most likely for it to have been confused as, sits in the Carvins Cove Natural Reserve,
 * Best link I could find: https://greenways.org/trails/carvins-cove-natural-reserve-trails/brushy-mountain-fire-road/
 * This mountain sits only at 2382 feet. Also, if you look at the USDA source, the description says 'The Veterans of Foreign Wars have erected a monument in Murphy's memory, on the crash site.'. If you look at the webmap, it is clearly on on North/West slope of Brush Mountain in the Brush Mountain Wilderness. Normalrat420 (talk) 00:39, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The only solution is that the original report is incorrect. Looking at a 1972 USGS Topo Map, the ridge is clearly labeled as 'Brush Mountain'. Normalrat420 (talk) 00:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I've talked to an Academic who focuses in Appalachian Studies and they have confirmed to me that the mountain was largely called 'Brushy Mountain' by locals especially during this time, even though it was officially referred to as 'Brush Mountain' by the USGS. It is very likely that the orignal crash report relied heavily on local knowledge. Unfortunately I have no hard sources for this (talked to academic in-person) but hopefully anyone curious about the discrepancy will see this. Brushy or Brush, the name is more-or-less correct. Normalrat420 (talk) 22:58, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I changed the body text and added a footnote explaining the contradictions in the mountain name. Schazjmd   (talk)  21:30, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Politics
The article should mention he was a Democrat. 2A00:23C5:C410:5601:689D:D246:90FC:A4D8 (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Source? Schazjmd   (talk)  20:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Medal of Honor Citation
Needs addition of Medal of Honor citation to the decorations sub category

"2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machinegun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective." 2601:406:4D04:57D0:913C:5B85:99E2:4B5D (talk) 04:45, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2023
Please can you add the movie Apache rifles 1964 to his film history. 202.7.245.21 (talk) 01:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Already covered at Film_career_of_Audie_Murphy RudolfRed (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Medal of Honor Citation
The citation for his Medal of Honor had a link that leads to the wrong page. This should be the correct link below:

Citation number (75)

https://www.si.edu/object/audie-murphys-medal-honor-citation:nmah_1062079 Bane of Solace (talk) 23:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ Corrected, thanks! — Maile (talk) 23:46, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Born in.?
On his tombstone it's stand born 1924. On wiki it's stand born 1925.? 217.74.149.238 (talk) 21:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Please read footnote #1 for an explanation. Schazjmd   (talk)  21:32, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2023
Add a section for Sabaton's "to hell and back" song which describes his fighting at Anzio. Hornet Gaming (talk) 23:15, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Inflation
The inflation figures in the article are really misleading. $1 being paid to a ten/eleven year old in 1935 is not worth about $19 in 2019, although I'm sure external figures show they are equivalent. One could buy a fancy dress shirt for $2 in 1940. Here is a misleading CPI calculator https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1940?amount=1 And here is a link showing he could have bought 5 pounds of hamburger meat http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/70yearsofpricechange.html DDB (talk) 23:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Birth date?
article states June 20, 1925....photo of his tombstone shows June 20, 1924 2603:7000:743E:1BC1:693B:56F2:86D0:ECF4 (talk) 07:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Audie Murphy lied about his age to get into the military. He was buried in a military cemetery, so they used the 1924 birth date on his military records. His driver's license said 1925. His family tree says 1925. — Maile  (talk) 11:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Mistake needs to be corrected
Audie Murphy was not just ONE of the most decorated American combat soldiers of WWII. He was THE MOST decorated American combat soldier of WWII. Your information is false and is not fair to the legacy of Audie Murphy. Mollycat790 (talk) 07:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * That claim was made when he returned from the war in 1945. Everybody - including the US Army - believed that at the time, and gave him the accolades as such. Record keeping was not as tidy as it should have been right after the war. Since that time, families of WWII veterans have worked with the military for the awarding of medals that slipped through the cracks immediately following the war. Most notable are Garlin Murl Conner (presented by Pres. Trump 26 June 2018) and Matt Urban (presented by Pres. Carter July 19, 1980). Nobody can really define who was the most decorated, so we leave it at, "one of the most decorated". — Maile  (talk) 11:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Lies. Absolute lies. You should be ashamed. Even Obama went public and said Audie remains the most decorated US combat soldier of WW11 45.2.153.75 (talk) 12:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Examine this list to see where Audie Murphy stands in context. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 12:35, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

He stands as the most decorated. Thankfully Arlington recognizes that, Obama recognized it and those who matter do. Wikipedia is known for its false information. So I had my say. You are only about 1% who try to say he is only one of the most decorated soldiers. Shameful. Please do not contact me again. 45.2.153.75 (talk) 12:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Nobody from Wikipedia will "contact" you; just stop posting here. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 12:57, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * A note in case anyone else reads this and gets confused, here are the chronological facts: Arlington's information is dated as of Murphy's death in 1971. Murphy's tombstone at Arlington lists his medals but does not make any claims about his being the most decorated. Arlington's website only says he was, "one of the nation's most-decorated soldiers". Matt Urban's  medal count was updated on July 19, 1980, during the administration of President Jimmy Carter. President Trump would present the Medal of Honor posthumously to Garlin Murl Conner; the presentation took place on 26 June 2018. — Maile  (talk) 12:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

About Arlington
It says his medal count is unparalleled. That’s enough for me. Furthermore, most sources say “most decorated.” Audie Murphy was an exceptional man and deserves to be celebrated. As for his tombstone, if you knew anything about him, you would know that he did NOT want a special headstone or special treatment. His family honored his request. However, his is the second most visited grave at Arlington after JFK. They had to make a special pathway due to the amount of traffic. There is a limited series about his life being planned as the producers said Audie did not give himself enough credit for his heroics. He downplayed it in “To Hell and Back.” He always said the real heroes to him are the men that died serving their country. Let’s just leave this subject alone now. 45.2.153.75 (talk) 12:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Audie Murphy was an exceptional combat soldier who did not crave special treatment or accolades. If he was still alive today, he would undoubtedly want this article to just say he was among the most decorated, rather than trying to claim that he alone was the most decorated. 57.140.32.11 (talk) 22:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)


 * There is no head-count device at Arlington graves, so no way to determine how many people visited any grave. Audie's grave might be famous, but Arlington has astronauts, President Kennedy, Five-Star Generals and Admirals, Medal of Honor Recipients (not just Audie), Tuskegee Airmen, WWII 442nd Regimental Combat Team etc. I was part of a Wikipedia team that worked to get his article in order - the article was originally just awful. There was one (since permanently blocked) editor who tore apart everything we did, because he decided on his own that none of Audie's life and career was like the sources said.
 * We now have multiple articles because of the bulk of Audie's life and career. To see those articles, go to the main page of this and scroll down to the bottom, to the purple box that says Audie Murphy and click "show". That will take you to all the others: his full military career, his medals (which he once threw out and then had replaced), etc. He had ups and downs, and mood swings, financial success and financial problems. His military medals were because he followed orders and did what he was trained to do. He was a human being, and everything that goes with that.  — Maile  (talk) 01:46, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

European Theater, action near Holtzwihr, "further explanation needed"
For the paragraph beginning, "The Germans scored a direct hit..." I would propose the following clarification:

"On the afternoon of January 26, the Germans launched a strong counterattack from the village of Holtzwihr with six heavy tanks and approximately 2 companies of infantry. Two M10 tank destroyers had moved into the Co. B position overnight but as the attack commenced one of the TD's slid into a ditch as it tried to maneuver into position.  The other was hit by a German 88mm gun which set it ablaze and forced the surviving crew members to abandon it."

Citation: https://www.audiemurphy.com/documents/doc010/PFCAbramski_27Feb45.pdf

One last note: in the same paragraph it's mentioned that Murphy was, "directing artillery fire via his field radio" however he mentions in Chapter 19 of the memoir, "To Hell and Back," that he had sent his radio operator to the rear rather than risking having the equipment captured.

See also: https://audiemurphy.com/articles/2021-05-08_Radiomen.pdf

"The situation was hopeless, and Lieutenant Murphy refused to risk the capture of the valuable radio to the enemy. The loss of a functional radio would be catastrophic. So, Lieutenant Murphy was forced to order the radioman...to retreat to safety. Dubious.Dubhouse (talk) 02:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Murphy's military service
I wonder whether we sufficiently capture the uniqueness of Murphy's World War II service. I don't believe we do so in this article or in the article focusing just on his military career. It was  his entire approach to soldiering, the mental attitude that distinguished him from the rest. Are we really doing that justice? Reading the Graham book, I am struck by the attention it devotes to that subject. Both of these articles seem a bit dry and lacking in sufficient detail. Since this article will be getting eyeballs on Jan. 26, the anniversary of his heroism at Colmar, it would be nice if we enhanced a bit that aspect of the article, while of course respecting its FA status. I have the same feeling concerning his youth, as the severe nature of his poverty is not described. I don;t mean anything big, just a sentence or two here and there, and perhaps a blockquote. I'm raising here because this is indeed an FA and perhaps this has been discussed in the past. Coretheapple (talk) 20:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The lead misquotes the WWII museum source, which calls Murphy "the'" most decorated solider of WWII, not "one of." Yes, this was discussed in the past, eleven years ago, but I think that we can revisit that. Also I see that the Graham biography thoroughly explores his decorations, and states that he is the most decorated solider in US history. I likewise note that the same determination was reached by the AUSA. Coretheapple (talk) 16:03, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Birthdate
He was born 1924 172.102.187.11 (talk) 14:07, 3 February 2024 (UTC)


 * While his tombstone says 1924 and many sources do say that, in recent years it emerged that in fact he was born in 1925. His sister revealed after his death that she provided military recruiters an altered birth certificate making him one year older to allow him to join the Army. His latest biography "The Price of Valor" apparently adopts that birth date. This has been discussed quite a bit in the past. We can certainly revisit the subject I imagine. Coretheapple (talk) 15:10, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "Price of Valor" just arrived in the mail. It does adopt the 1925 birth date, sourced to his driver's license (recovered at the scene of the plane crash) and comments by his friend Specs McClure. I believe both of these have been gone over, in depth, in archived discussions. It certainly is plausible, given his dire poverty (not adequately described in this article) that he would want to join the Army urgently enough to persuade his sister to falsify documents. I believe underaged soldiers were fairly common in WWII. Coretheapple (talk) 16:14, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Audie Murphy's birth year
The article states Audie Murphy was born in 1925. However, this is incorrect. I recently took a photo of his headstone at Arlington National Cemetery, and it shows his date of birth to be June 20, 1924. Morrisonvp (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @Morrisonvp, please see discussion immediately above your post. Schazjmd   (talk)  18:47, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Tendentious editing removed
User:Penlite your recent edits to Audie Murphy and, to Night Passage (film), constitute Tendentious editing (editorial bias), and have been reverted. — Maile (talk) 14:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't know about Night Passage but I don't understand how the edit to this article was tendentious or vandalism. Can you explain your reason for the revert? Coretheapple (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I have the same concern about the Night Passage edit (which is not really relevant to the edit here). It is original research, not tendentious. Coretheapple (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. I reverted my edits on Night Passage, but I'm seriously concerned the recent edits on this article takes it from Feature Article quality to tabloid quality. Getting this to FA literally took a team of top-quality editors, and constant interfering by one editor who was obsessed that Audie didn't deserve any medals. That editor also rewrote the article every time we got it close to FA. But it doesn't hurt to ask others, which is why I posted the question at MH. — Maile  (talk) 22:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * It looks to me like my reverts have been corrected, and hopefully, this article is now where it should be. Thank you for taking the time to ask about it. — Maile  (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm getting hold of the Graham book. I wonder whether we have enough to show Murphy in a well-rounded fashion. Coretheapple (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I've gotten the book and look forward to reading it. As I mentioned in the milhist talk page, I wonder whether we may be downplaying some aspects of his character a tad. If so, we are doing neither the reader nor his legacy any favors. Coretheapple (talk) 23:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The Graham book is interesting. It's new to me but I imagine editors here are familiar with it as it is cited several times. I see no discussion of the book's value as a source in the archives and I was wondering if editors have strong feelings about it one way or the other. I'm not sure more is needed from that book, by the way, but it does have some interesting details. Coretheapple (talk) 15:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I note also that there is a 2015 biography, The Price of Valor, that may be useful. I'm getting a copy of it. I note that it is listed as "further reading" but not is not used as a source, and I was wondering why that would be. A description of the book indicates that it discusses Murphy's birth date and states that he was born in 1925, and use of that source would obviate the need to utilize primary sources as we seem to do here. The Graham book is quite good, but going through the archives I see that someone observed that the book tends to include uncorrobroated anecdotes. This is true, and they need to be used with caution but I don't think that they necessarily should be excluded entirely. Reading the Graham book, I am struck by how one of its primary themes, which was an examination of Murphy's character and personality, is not reflected in this article adequately. Considering that this is a featured article, it is striking that a significant element of the subject's biography would appear to be neglected. Coretheapple (talk) 16:14, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to mention that I finished The Price of Valor and it is largely of little value as a source. Except for confirming the birth date (which I suspect was inspired by this article!) it has little that wasn't in the Graham book in considerably greater detail. Also it appears to contradict the Graham book on whether Murphy went backrupt. It says he did. I believe Graham says he did not. Further, the Graham book goes into substantial detail over Murphy's involvement in an effort on behalf of Jimmy Hoffa. Nothing in Valor on that. I also noted duplicate phrases here and there. Coretheapple (talk) 22:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)


 * at update at on the same calibre of audie murphy 2601:642:4C02:4B99:3911:A441:73C8:F3AC (talk) 16:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

birth year disparity
Murphy's given birth year in the article does not match the year shown on his headstone. 2601:249:8F80:7BF0:5D7:BE7A:3249:8D9E (talk) 23:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please see footnote 1 in the article. Schazjmd   (talk)  15:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)