Talk:Aung San Suu Kyi trespasser incidents/Archive 1

fixes...
I have a busy schedule today, but through various times today I'll be making copyedits and improvements to this article. Kingturtle (talk) 12:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * To help other editors, Kingturtle, please do take the time to provide rationale's for substantial prunings (ie something a bit more specific than "unhelpful or "unencyclopedic" in your edit summaries!) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  01:27, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've closed the following discussion. Please make additional comments here: Articles for deletion/John Yettaw. Thanks. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  16:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC) in a new section. Thanks. ↜Just M &thinsp;E  here&#8202;,&#8202;now  20:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to Delete

 * Strongly disagree: The events precipitated by Yettaw's unconventional visit to the imprisoned Suu Kyi have yet to play out. While the visit itself was newsworthy, if initially and apparently on a blip, it has affected national politics (she has since been arrested and charged with violating the conditions of her home imprisonment, the national elections in 2010 will be influenced by her status) in ways that were not anticipated. While it may prove to be appropriate to incorporate the article into various other articles (Suu Kyi, Burma, etc.), I maintain that deletion of this article now will make it that much harder to re-start as more facts about this man become available. Also of note: he is being charged by Burma's junta and there will probably be additional international focus on him in the near future. IOW, too soon to say that his notability is temporary. --LeyteWolfer (talk) 13:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "The events precipitated by Yettaw's unconventional visit to the imprisoned Suu Kyi have yet to play out" - See WP:CRYSTAL for information on why speculation on events in the future are not included here. If he does become the source of widespread media attention, you can always re-add the article. However you shouldn't pre-emptively add articles about people that you believe may become notable in the future. Passportguy (talk) 14:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The distinction I was unclear in describing is that he is not notable for something he /may/ do but something that he has done. The consequences of his actions already have garnered international attention, have had repercussions being witnessed at this very moment and suggest considerable influence of a nation's politics in the coming months. In my view, there is nothing to gain from deleting the article now when the action he committed is already notable and, additionally, may become even more notable with time. In essence, I am saying the focus should be on the action committed, with the future impacts only adding possible weight to strengthening the notability. As an example, I am NOT the author of this stub article, but I DID come here after reading his name for the umpteenth time in the media this week, to seek out more information on this American who has thrust himself and affected another nation's politics. The article needs development, not deletion. --LeyteWolfer (talk) 17:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I strongly suggest you read NTEMP, especially the part about the fact that "it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute sufficient evidence of notability". Passportguy (talk) 17:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree: Currently, the article contains no other fact about the subject other than that he is a US citizen. Every other factoid is either about the event, or about ASSK. CapnZapp (talk) 17:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree: If Wiki started pages for every oddball and crank we'd have a worse reputation than we do already...doktorb wordsdeeds 18:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Disagree: I believe that Wikipedia should ideally hold information about basically everything. As there is no problems with server space, there is no real reason why one should delete articles at all. Wikipedia is not a professional encyclopaedia with an employed staff - and it should not strive to be that either! --jakslev (talk) 08:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Disagree: This crazy sonofabitch just condemned Suu Kyii to lifetime imprisonment with his foolish actions.Lets leave this page as a monument to how religion can drive people insaneRain City Blues (talk) 16:20, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

We are without any benefit of hindsight yet
to better determine what elements of commentary about these matters might prove notable; yet what MAY in the end prove notable are especially items of immediate commentary arising from folks extremely closely connected to the principals"(eg: - A lawyer for Suu Kwi said that Yettaw had told her he was Mormon and that on his visit in 2008 Yettaw had left 'a little Bible' for her and that during Yettaw's visit in 2009 he had told Suu Kwi he was Mormon and had prayed extensively while at her residence. - Yettaw's former wife Yvonne said he had told her prior to Yettaw's 2009 trip to Asia that he needed to travel there to work on a psychology paper on forgiveness. - Yettaw's wife Betty said he is 'a very peace-loving person, well-meaning, forgiving, mild-mannered” who 'meant the very best for' Suu Kyi. - Exiled opposition figure Ngwe Lin believed the government may have 'turned a blind eye when the guy swam across Inya Lake' in 2009 in order to use the incident to punish Suu Kyi.)"But we needn't be in any hurry to make any determinations about which may or may not be notable so I am parking the above here on the talkpage for the time being. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  01:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, FWIW (if anything, that is...) here's some anonymous blog commentary: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/anyone-know-john-william-yettaw/#comment-291874 . ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  01:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And there's a translation into English of a Burmese-language, anonymous blogpost wrt Yettaw, here (a claim he walked in): http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/juntas-plot-taxi-driver-who-bravely-informed-us-of-his-true-accountyettaw/ . ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  20:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Justmeherenow's kvetching about Kingturtle's otherwise exemplary m.o.
...who contributes much great information toward the encyclopedia, it's true; but the quibble I have with him is a pattern of his reflexive deletions of sourced material without any specific rationale. I sincerely believe that this behavior is not constructive toward the collaborative venture of Wikipedia. As an example, in one single mass deletion --
 * 1) He deleted the statement (as I've posted on the talkpage immediately above) that Yettaw left a bible and prayed extensively at Suu Kyi's residence in 2008. Later it's been added that he left, more precisely, six books, including the Book of Mormon -- but the statement about Yettaw's praying a lot is still missing. Why this deletion of material, as accompanied by its source?
 * 2) He deleted the expressed belief (posted on the talkpage immediately above) that Yettaw had been working on a psychology paper on forgiveness; yet later Kingturtle re-added this. So, this begs the question, Why did he delete it, accompanied by its source, in the first place?
 * 3) Kingturtle deleted the description (posted on the talkpage above) of Yettaw as "a very peace-loving person, well-meaning, forgiving, mild-mannered [...who] meant the very best." Although this has not been re-added, it's been mentioned in almost all news articles about the affair. So, why his original deletion, along with its source?
 * 4) The belief by some of a conspiracy by the Burmese government to allow Yettaw to reach the compound in order to create an incident for which to punish Suu Kyi was deleted, along with its source. Why?

Other random deletions Kingturtle made to the article include the two separate edits I'd added, with sources, that Suu Kyi is Buddhist, that Yettaw is part Native American, plus other odds and ends. Kingturtle deleted. Then he deletes the inclusion of Yettaw's birthyear as being 1955 but adds that Yettaw was born circa 1956. Then also he deleted the mention that Yettaw still is in debt for the 2008 trip still, along with its source. Any one of these deletions alone wouldn't be that big of a deal but put together they represent a pattern. I don't know how Kingturtle edits elsewhere but this talkpage comment is just to make him aware of the perspective of another WPdian whose sources contributed to this article were thrown out in the manner described . ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  13:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Kingturtle has contacted me on my talkpage in a very conciliatory manner; so, in any case, I now apologize for some of my tone and have striked the details, at least, of my kvetching, above. Sorry. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  17:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Commentary
A Commentary section is unencyclopedic. That's why I removed it. What exactly was the intention of that section? Kingturtle (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh? WP:NPOV says, "At Wikipedia, points of view (POVs) – cognitive perspectives – are often essential to articles which treat controversial subjects."
 * Shouldn't deletions of opinions properly be accompanied with specific rationales -- ie something beyond "This is opinion. Unencyclopedic"? ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  01:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The intention is to provide encyclopedic coverage of the event and notable commentary about the event, per WP guidelines. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  01:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Then maybe Reactions would be a better title for the section. Commentary sounds like the Wikipedia editors are making commentary. Kingturtle (talk) 01:49, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a wiki. Put in a sub-hed of "Reactions" if you wish. (Nonetheless, as for me, I'm content to leave the miscellaneous items on the talkpage until some time goes by, providing editors with more perspective. {smiles}) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  01:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If I understand you correctly, Kingturtle, you say that you believed a section's title to be slightly open to misinterpretation, in your opinion -- so therefore you simply reflexively delete THE ENTIRE SECTION, along with a half-dozen sources, giving as your "rationale" that it en toto is, quote, unencyclopedic. In which guideline or essay, exactly, do you pick up that such an action is in keeping with WPdia's culture and practice? ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  13:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * {blushes} Oops! Instead saying all the my defensive, polemically tinged argumentation above, I really should have just linked to WP:PRESERVE. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  21:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

2007 or 2008?
Which is it? Evercat (talk) 14:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 2008. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  15:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

June 9, 1955
What citation gives us this birthday? Kingturtle (talk) 16:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Birthdatabase.com identifies his date of birth as September 6th of 1955. Although it lists his city of birth as either Covina, CA, or La Verne, CA, it is quite clear on the date.    KDS 4444  Talk   19 May 2009  —Preceding undated comment added 00:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC).
 * Also
 * Blogger and Buddhist monk Ashin Mettacara (winner of the Best News award among Asian bloggers; picture here:File:Ashin Mettacara.JPG) gives Yettaw's birthdate, plus additional vital statistics apparently taken from Yettaw's passport, in the May 14 post "American Made John Yettaw: A fool engineered by the Myanmar government" here: http://www.ashinmettacara.org/2009/05/american-made-john-yettaw-fool.html .
 * Note also the Monsters and Critics news piece about the website MoeMaKa and others (also see Media of Burma):"[...]The internet is playing a useful tool in dispersing information, and one-man news agencies are springing up overnight in Myanmar to spread the word on events and are helping major news media such as the BBC using it to supplement their coverage. [... ...] Surprisingly the government has yet to shut down internet connections, though there are recent reports of closures of cybercafes and the disconnection of mobile telephones. Agencies are also pulling photos taken by locals on the scene able to take pictures that no one else can get with their mobile phones and downloading them to the internet and the world. One site, moemaka.blogspot.com, doesn't care who uses their photos and is not concerned about copyright or financial reimbursements, according to Japanese freelance photographer Dai Kurokawa. 'They are just interested in getting the photos out and seen,' said Kurokawa who has spent time in Myanmar documenting the plight of the people. Many of the photos are taken by friends of the bloggers and with the slow download times of the internet, now getting bogged down with the increase of traffic,is putting many in danger of arrest as they patiently download their photos. [...]" Well, anyway, MoeMaKa News & Media has a posting of May 13 entitled "Data of John William Yettaw" that also relates the birthdate here: http://moemaka.blogspot.com/2009/05/data-of-john-william-yettaw.html .
 * In any case, Kingturtle and KDS444, apparently Burma uses the British system of day-then-month. My error. Much thanks for the correction, KDS444. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  00:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Because this is a biography of a living person, I have removed his date of birth until we have a valid, reliable citation for it. Kingturtle (talk) 14:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Venerable Ashin Mettacara and the Internet news blogsite MoeMaKa News & Media (which gives Yettaw's birthdate as (၅၄)ႏွစ္၊ ၆-၉-၁၉၅၅) taken together could be taken aas reasonable, mutually supporting RSes IMO but guess I'll go ahead and bow to Kingturtle's editorial opinion in this case. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  14:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't bow down. We are equals here. Kingturtle (talk) 16:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We bow to guidelines -- and, sometimes, to competing interpretations of them -- but not so much to individual contributors, it would be hoped. (Although some of us might bow with great flourishes to our own images in a mirror...in which cases we'd hope that our fellows would set us aright!) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  14:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, per the guidelines at WP:WEB wrt establishing notability of web content, Yettaw's birthyear is certainly adequately sourced as being 1955. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  16:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

his travel blog
I came across the travel blog, but was unsure if it was the same John Yettaw. This article confirms that he was traveling in China at the time the blog was written. Kingturtle (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Where is the link for this travelogue? Does it say anything that might be of relevance or interest?  Does it seem to be authentic?  Do the events in it correspond to any of the known and established events of the life of the John W. Yettaw who is the subject of this article?  Am interested in more information.  Please point.  Thanks!    KDS 4444  Talk    —Preceding undated comment added 06:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC).
 * Here: http://www.travelblog.org/Bloggers/John7Children/ ↜Just M &thinsp;E  here&#8202;,&#8202;now  13:33, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, JustMeHereNow & KingTurtle. Given that the timing of this blog corresponds with his known trip to China, and given that the "name" of the blogger is "John7Children", and given that he is known to have been the father OF seven children (see http://verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal;NEWSROOMAPPID=JyxQKY2HS2BXgfgQgpCyy3xgSr9x0Gq1GpD1rjqQ2NxblGVbvV1N!497486999?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page_world_article&_article=1782569), I more than suspect we have a match. Am not sure what, if anything, this means for the future of his Wikipedia article, but I am willing to believe that this is indeed him. KDS 4444 Talk    —Preceding undated comment added 23:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC).

Placement of fair-use image
I removed the f/u image from the bio infobox but placed it in the particular section concerning Yettaw's 2009 swim to Suu Kyi's mildewed compound; WP guidelines wrt usage rationales for fair use images are fairly exacting. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  13:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * JMHN: This TimesOnline article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6286448.ece) includes a photograph of Suu Kyi's house taken from the water. I have reviewed the overhead satellite image of her residence on University Avenue in Rangoon, and am able to verify that the image of the house in the Times article corresponds with the pitch and color of the roof of the house in the satellite image (a little tricky at first, but once figured out, leaves no room for doubt).  Do you know if we can either a.) include a copy of this image here and reference it to the London Times or b.) mention the image in the Times article as being of her residence?  Since John swam in and entered the property from the water's edge and attempted to climb up her drain pipe, I think an image of this house would be appropriately encyclopedic if it can be included (from a reader's perspective: "how close to the water is her house?" "how close to the water does it FEEL?"  "How far did he have to climb to try to reach the second story?" etc.).  I realize such use of an image is likely prohibido, but wanted to see what other people's thoughts/ experiences were.  Seeing this house really brought the whole scenario home for me.  Can't you just hear the buzz of insects??   KDS 4444  Talk    —Preceding undated comment added 07:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC).
 * Well, KDS4444, according to my understanding of the guidelines, if, say, Suu Kyi no longer lived there and were the residence to become extensively refurbished, fair-use licensure would be justifiable under an assertion that no free images of the building as it appeared at the time are know to exist. However, as it is now, someone can telephoto their own actual photograph and release it for free use and voila. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  23:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Can't walk on water

 * 1) Nyan Win relates that Yettaw said in court, "I had a dream that Aung San Suu Kyi would be assassinated so I came to warn her, so I am not guilty," and, "I can’t walk on the water so I swam."
 * 2) Myanmar's consul general in Hong Kong said in an online posting [[edited]: expressed his belief...] that Yettaw is a "secret agent or her [Suu Kyi's] boyfriend." ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  18:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC); ↜Just M &thinsp;E  here&#8202;,&#8202;now  06:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, JustMeHere, the article states that the consul "alleged" these various relationships... Which I guess is something short of "saying" such things, since "saying" would suggest some level of agreed-upon factuality to them, and I doubt that even the government of Myanmar believes that its interpretation of John Yettaw and who he is is the same as that of anyone else in the international community...  For what that's worth.  "Alleged" seems the better word for now.    KDS 4444  Talk    —Preceding undated comment added 04:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC).
 * Yes, of course! ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  06:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yettaw now wants to plead guilty. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  19:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

2nd infobox (Infobox Historical Event)...
I do not like the 2nd infobox (Infobox Historical Event). It is bulky and fat. I do not see why we need it. Kingturtle (talk) 16:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * KT, I adjusted its width on the page to 22em.undefined If you don't like the infobox's formatting itself, please address your concerns at Template talk:Infobox Historical Event. Thanks. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  01:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Costs?
"As of May 2009, Yettaw was still paying off the cost of his 2008 visit" - this is an ambiguous statement: does the word "cost" refer to fine imposed by the court, or to the personal expenses he incurred during the enterprise? The link to the referenced AJC article is now dead... Dom Kaos (talk) 13:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It refers to his travel costs. I'll fix it. Kingturtle (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks - that now makes much better sense :-)  Dom Kaos (talk) 18:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Doubled citations for Yettaw's birthyear
The reason for there being two citations is that per WP guidelines regarding reliable sources in another language than English, we'd provide the most reliable source, viz the renowned foreign-language news site which published Yettaw's vital statistics, for his birthyear, accompanied by (2) this exact chart's translation into English as supplied by the monk's renowned newsblog, which was posted the day after the Burmese news site's posting of this info. It might be conceivable for us to use only the English-language newsblog, however. (However, in my personal opinion, FWIW, since some ppl inexplicably have a hard on for removing on removing citations of blogs, no matter how prestigious of awards they've recieved for their news coverages -- such as in this case, the monk's newsblog won for Asian news coverage -- the blog's supplementation by the Burmese-language news site would seem a fairly reasonable choice.) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  16:25, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Newsweek source gives 1955 as his year of birth. Can we use that one as the only one? Kingturtle (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course! :^) ↜Just M &thinsp;E  here&#8202;,&#8202;now  20:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

My o/r with regard Newsweek's recent profile
...is that it completely fails to dampen my conspiritorial radar. (Failing, as it does, to even mention another interpretation the evidence itself could conceivably support, alternative to the one being used as the template for the word portrait being constructed. That is, making but oblique mention of details the interpretations of which could contradict the conclusions being emphasized doesn't satisfy the journalistic imperative to present all the available evidence! (IMO, of course.) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  13:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you name some specifics? Kingturtle (talk) 14:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Geez, Kingturtle, you essentially wrote the existing WP article; cannot you see these newly reported contradictions of almost every single actual fact that our existing article implies about Yettaw's background! {good naturedly laughs} Still, I really shouldn't list 'em, since I can't help but veer from doing so completely neutrally and instead want to go into my conspiratorial "original research" (and won't complain if some IP comes along and deletes this whole section, either...); but here's the top ten, off the top of my head:''
 * 1.A) brief mention that Yettaw told a friend how he felt a restoration of Suu Kyi to participation in politics would be important to Burma.
 * 1.B) Lengthy wielding of journalistic paint strokes repeating the refrain that Yettaw has ZERO INTEREST IN POLITICS . You really don't have to be an expert in propoganda to recognize blatant spin when there's only one interpretation of events being offered.
 * Then there's...
 * 2.A) Extremely skant details about what can only be objectively viewed as extraordinary accomplishments in scholarship by Yettaw are only spun to show his alleged instability.
 * 3.A) His military service record is, um, in Germany. Every other background story he's ever used doesn't pan out either.
 * 4.A) Unemphasized that apparently NO LONG HISTORY OF HIS RECEIVING DISABILITY PAYMENTS HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED! (despite all the stories about the same told to the press by his friends and acquaintances). Emphasis instead on: Some folks have suggested he's crazy. (Hold that thought.... )
 * 5.A) Other than the above NO ADDITIONAL DETAILS ABOUT HIS BACKGROUND CAN BE DUG UP. You know, this only being 2009? and with the normal way of the world being that there are leaks to journalists from the investigations done by the U.S. government when independent actors become involved in some kind of international intrigue? But, in the present case: nothing can be dug up, a blank slate!
 * 6.A) The dude is constructing a huge mansion.
 * 7.A) A super brief mention that Yettaw may have taken something suggested to him by a party in Burma whom Newsweek leaves unnamed as an actual directive.
 * 8.A) An un-named person who knows Yettaw says Yettaw knows stuff about the Burmese situation that would put him in big time trouble with the Burmese authorities if it were to be revealed.
 * 9.A) The ex-wife (was it?) is stymied by all the doodads of professional intrigue discovered in Yettaw's possession at the time of his arrest.
 * 10A) Meanwhile, this dude (who other reports have mentioned coincidentally happens to be a highly trained expert and theorist in dealing with psychological abuse and torture) expresses to any and all that he is happy as a clam in lock-up, expressing alleged dulusions that he sincerely believes himself the savior of Suu Kyi and by extension of the Burmese people (with Suu Kyi's, it's also been reported elsewhere, holding no grudge against our smart and jovial, "gentle freako.")
 * Newsweek offers not even a sentence followed by a question mark even broaching any possibility that Yettaw's anything other than the good-natured-yet-mad, go-it-aloner freakizoid that he's said to be. So, the reporters merely arrange their lighting and background details and put film into their journalistic cameras and produce the following portrait of our obviously idealistic and educated international traveler whose background simply cannot be checked (thus any speculations pertaining thereto can ultimately neither be confirmed or denied...... but, oh, he is busily contructing a huge mansion, his children excel in school and the whole family are considered more than upstanding members of his community):
 * 2B) The smart dude is whacky, crazy, man. Perpetual grad student type. Super brief mention by Newsweek of an academic record revealing incredible competence and accomplishement.
 * 3B) He was in the military. Joined up when 17, serving in Germany. No record after that. No further work for Uncle Sam, of course. Why would anyone suggest that?
 * 4B) Maybe he suffers from some kind of undocumented disability, though. (That has been his story, in the past. But then, you know, crazy people make things up.)
 * 5B) No employment record. You know, it's hard to dig stuff up these days. The private investigator was too expensive. Or the one Newsweek hired hit a brick wall due to the fact that Yettaw had been living as a hobo riding the rails in between visits to his two consecutive wives' households, having no regular associates or else keeping people who knew him in his alternate life separate from those who know him in conjunction with his families, so Newsweek's P.I. has hit a brick wall in his investigations.
 * 6B) Wow, look at all that trash strewn around um, that huge mansion being constructed. Trailer trash, I'd say. Well, Yettaw does get greasy working on the General Lee, which he has to jump into through a passenger window since its doors are permanently welded shut.
 * 7B) Yettaw deludedly thought he was on some kind of secret mission. (Crazy, no?)
 * 8B) Some unnamed fellow suggests Yettaw (completely independently, of course) has uncovered Burmese secrets. (We don't come out and say so, but, obviously this dude's just craaazy to suggest this. "Probs some nutjob conspiracy theorist!," reader's should guess.)
 * 9B) "Geez, what was it, exactly, with all those carefully chosen supplies he had?," wonders his ex.
 * 10B) He believes himself a savior. Did we mention he was crazy?
 * ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  17:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree the Newsweek article had a lot of fluff in it, but it also had a good deal of information this article didn't have. I was careful to keep the speculation and fluff out, and only include items that were presented as facts. I don't know what I believe in any news story in this matter, but by using many different sources we can get to some sort of reasonability. Yes, many other articles state he had vietnam experience, but all of them were based on what Yettaw had told family and friends, and on what those family and friends told the media. The Newsweek article is the only one that actually checked with the government. According to the government, Yettaw was in Germany, not Vietnam. Again, I tried only to add non-speculation and non-superlative information this article didn't have. Kingturtle (talk) 17:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Subject's (a-)vocation(s)
What's known, according to my opinion (working from memory; will re-check later)? Arranged in descending order:
 * 1) Student (whether or not receiving loans). Abolutely yes. Very much.
 * 2) Visionary wanderer. Very much, as asserted by Yettaw, his family and friends and therefore as reported in the media. Actually known facts: When Yettaw was questioned after coming out of the lake but a stone's throw away from the U.S. embassy (look at the square-shaped dot on the satellite photo of the lake posted several places on the Net), he came across as a harmless-if-crazy tourist and somehow wasn't detained; his subsequent trip, it became known he'd visited Suu Kyi and he asserted that he is a harmless visionary on an ideosyncratic mission. These things being said, according to what facts are in entire public record, in general the ultimate motivations of Yettaws sense of mission and the ultimate purposes of his travels remain wholly open to investigational speculation.
 * 3) Contractor. Not so much. (My experience has always been that local details about big time stories are usually filled in by local reporters, but.....inexplicably in this case, whereas the CNN satellite truck has cruised on over to Yettaw's next door neighbor's place and has secured an interview with a fellow who knows of Yettaw as an highly educated idealist ostensibly doing important work, all the local reporters have shown exactly zero interest in the story and have instead endeavored to stick to the police blotter and school teams' scores. My guess? Local bigwigs are, ahem, connected to, um, let's say the people who run a local training institution that Yettaw often attends to debrief his professors on what he's learned on his travles doing scholarly work on pychology and forgiveness in the field, and these movers and shakers have simply contacted the local newspaper publishers, who in turn have instructed the local editors not to assign any reporters to this beat. Then, as far as CNN goes, word filtered down to the channel's top news honcho, who passed the word along that their initial reporting on the story was great but "We probably don't need to do a follow up, just yet." Nuff said.) But, sorry, now back to our regularly scheduled editing of Wikipedia: What is however, known is that Yettaw possessed a contractor's license in southern California, although there's zero claims that he's done more than nominal work in the area of building contracting, professionally. There is a turreted house being constructing on his property. Does he do some or most this work himself? Or does he pay others?
 * 4) Crazy man. Not so much. Whereas Yettaw's family members have asserted he receives disability payments, no mention of them was made by the extensive profile compiled by that arbiter of truth, Newsweek, and, instead, Newsweek chose to speculate about Yettaw's psychiatric conditions which Newsweek admits remains undiagnosed. It's true he has had a restraining order against him on behalf of a woman. I've yet to hear any fleshed out stories of drunkenness. (And what I've heard to-date in that regard could be expalined by an incident or two of Yettaws getting a little drunk while commiserating with a friend over a recent loss(?) In fact, I myself believe that the other speculations about Yettaw's psychiatric conditions all likely date from after his arrest in Burma.) ↜Just M &thinsp;E  here&#8202;,&#8202;now  19:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

In what ways does this article violate any of that? Kingturtle (talk) 20:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Scanning the story again
I see Newsweek (and a recent edit of Kingturtle's to Yettaw's WP article) do contain the vocational info with concern to Yettaw that he worked on a presumably casual basis for "USA Tours" (or at least perhaps driving a bus with that kind of logo on it?), in which capacity it's said he mainly shuttled personnel to nearby Fort Leonard Wood: the kind of inconsequential gig, however, that he could drop and up and on-his-own decide to head off to Southeast Asia (an area of the world in which he falsely and only coincidently claims military experience) in pursuit of objectives shown to him in his vision quests. Truth is so often stranger than fiction and Newsweek's reporters dug into the story there on the ground while here I am sitting on a couch in New Jersey occasionally glancing up to look out the window at a rainstorm; so probably Newsweek's story of the crazy bus driver is true while the image in my mind of "John is using the cover that he is just our bus driver, men, but he is here to instruct us in some United States Army advanced operational training" is probably worth about as much as most conspiracy theories usually are: not much at all! ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  21:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC) ( Filling in this script further: Yettaw, whose spread is miles from the nearest neighbor, puts up  visiting men (say, doing casual work on his place) not just in a shed on his place but in a comfortable room with a shower and heat in a nice motel. Image in my head? Men who are on missions are in town for training and so, of course, need housing. Likely story? Drifters. Then somebody or another challenges Yettaw in a parking lot and before the man knows what has happened Yettaw has pushed a finger -- not "in" the man's eye, it's said, but "through" his eye! Visions of someone not customarily a bar fighter taking it straight to his advanced training. Reality? Just happened that way. (Hope he wasn't hurt too badly !) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  23:02, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I' VE GOTTA BOW before Newsweek's skill in administering its brushstrokes of Yettaw as "well-intentioned and highly spiritual person who se struggles with alcoholism and[...]untreated bipolar and posttraumatic stress disorders." In any case, what follows is what I consider the best "Where's-the-money!!" quote from its profile:"After a house fire and a messy divorce from Yvonne, Yettaw found himself living in a trailer on his property, where a veritable Noah's Ark of trash began to accumulate on the lawn: two broken-down cars, two derelict trucks, two rusted satellite dishes and a pair of portable basketball hoops that still stand in the tall, tick-infested grass. Debt began to snowball, as Yettaw pursued increasingly impractical dreams. He started driving a USA Tours bus in part to ferry soldiers from their homes to nearby Fort Leonard Wood, began work on a 6,000-square-foot turreted home and started putting up drifters in a local hotel. / ¶ / A darker side also emerged. He put his thumb through a man's eye during a fight in a bar parking lot, say Brian and Yvonne, and, according to police records, spat in the face of a woman who accused him of taking her car. (Although no charges were filed, Yettaw admitted to the spitting, and the woman won a restraining order against him.) In 1997 he graduated cum laude/.../."

All I'm saying is that if I allowed myself the same leeway as Newsweek's editors allowed the writers of Yettaw's profile, I could construct a portrait using Newsweek's own article, plus my new interviews with people who've claimed to have met Yettaw (eg with E. Erith, with Not Important) and with his next-door neighbor Mike Ansell (whose CNN video is no longer available), while still taking into account informed speculations by people, even if they don't know him personally (eg by Retired Diplomat), and come up with instead:"After his house burned down, Yettaw began a relationship with a fourth woman, who bore him a number of children. He began to build a 6,000-square-foot house on a huge parcel for his current family. (Note to self: Look up history of deed.) The building site currently features two beat-up 'ranch trucks,' a collection of broken-down cars, some satellite dishes and a pair of portable basketball hoops no doubt used by his many kids and their friends; yet the grass hasn't been cut for quite some time, which, until it would be cut, would produce the danger that one of them could pick up a tick.

Yettaw had been performing a non-professional level job, that of apparently his driving a USA Tours bus, often shuttling soldiers at Fort Leonard Wood onto or off from the army base. (Note to self: Check with employer and see how long Yettaw worked there and for how many hours a week. Does USA Tours book international tours?) He would often register nondescript non-professional class individuals who'd drift into the area into a local hotel. (Note to self: Motel 6? the Marriott? a rooming house? a B&B? Check.) Yettaw has opened an incredibly huge line of credit against his future earnings. (Note to self: via bank loans? merely credit cards? try to find out what employment he wrote on these applications. I appreciate the commentary by the writers of Yettaw's Newsweek profile, who have journalistically committed themselves to premise that the amount of Yettaw's debts are impractical. I myself would inquire with an expert in financial planning, once the details about Yettaw's debts, earnings, and possessions could be guessed at; and even then I'd phrase the guess as to the practicality of Yettaw's financial choices as being this financial planner's opinion. But if the earnings of Yettaw's driving gig, whatever its exact nature was, were too meager, with my editor's permission I'd go out on a limb and offer my journalistic speculation that Yettaw, someone who makes friends easily and whom almost everybody holds in good regard, could make a career change over to being an instructor, community relations person, sales rep, etc., or even could divide off the majority of his 160-acre parcel from a few-acre one that would include his homesite, to sell off in order to keep up payments on his debts. In any case, another note to self here: Be sure to plug in quotes here, later, from Yettaw's numerous friends and acquaintances.)"An agressive aspect to Yettaw has been reported. He shoved his thumb into a man's eye in a fight outside of a bar on one occasion. Also a restraining order has been ordered against his having contact with a woman whom Yettaw has admitted to spitting on. Nonetheless, due to Yettaw's brilliance he excelled in scholastics, graduating cum laude with the triple concentrations of criminal justice, psychology, and biology in 1997, after which Yettaw intermittently began research toward a doctorate in psychology. ↜Just M &thinsp;E  her''e&#8202;,&#8202;now  16:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

(Yet, purely for its style, I like Newsweek's motif of the greying haired visionary's constructing a seemingingly monstrous and impractical structure back in the hillcountry, whose property features: -- as a decrepit "Noah's ark." Bravo!) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  15:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1 pair of old trucks
 * 1 pair of broken down cars
 * 1 pair (apparently) of satellite dishes,
 * 1 pair of portable basketball hoops
 * [and so forth? other items unmentioned owing to lack of space in Newsweek's article?]

Basketball hoops
I removed from the article "There, excessive amounts of trash collected, including broken down vehicles, old satellite dishes and basketball hoops." I can't figure out how to include this information in a WP:NPOV way.

What is trying to be communicated by this info and what, exactly, is its factual basis? (1) Are the pair of "broken down" cars truly not working (viz "trash"). If so, are they being saved for parts? If they are simply not carted away yet, is it encyclopedic to mention? Is the property truly a trash heap? According to whom? Yettaw's neighbor? his wife? Newsweek reporters? Should it be considered a regular trash heap by Wikipedia? Precisely how many vehicles are excessive to own, for various intentions? Say I am a collector who has parked five Carmengias for parts right next to my tennis court (I wish...!) here in northeastern Bergen County, New Jersey. Should my Wikipedia bio use a newspaper quote of a neighbor who said, "That guy's a veritable Sanford & Son"? (2) Do the satellite dishes work? (3) Does Newsweek imply that the portable basketball hoops are not in working order? ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  17:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Undiagnosed conditions?
If Newsweek's investigation is relied on, implying that Yettaw's conditions in reality remain undiagnosed, then the assertions by his former wife and her mother, to the effect that Yettaw receives 100% disability, must be discounted, since how could someone receive payments for a military service-connected disability unless/until the former serviceman's conditions would be diagnosed? Per the Veteran's Administration, to qualify for disability -- the VA pays "$2,471/month for a 100% disability" -- an applicant must supply "medical evidence (doctor & hospital reports).") ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  20:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Page move
I googled John Yettaw and found nearly thrice the hits as for John William Yettaw, the name generally used in many news reports soon after his arrest), so I've moved the page to the shorter designation, per WP:COMMONNAME. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  05:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

General Khin Yi
...said Yesterday (noting Yettaw's having met with Burmese dissidents in Thailand) "There could be some individuals and organizations that had supported or directed John William Yettaw, but it is undeniable that Mr. Yettaw is the main culprit who has broken the existing law." IMO this (or something similar), should make it into the article. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  02:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Event infobox containing fair-use image
The article contains only one image, which was removed (by a user who goes through WP mass deleting infoboxes with the summary "text is enough," apparently feeling no necessity of giving substantive rationales for hi/r removals of sourced content found in infoboxes, per WP:DONTLIKEIT, which reads in part, "This may include subjective opinions concerning the usage of fair use images"). I reverted. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  06:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

More from the AP
"''According to police in Myanmar, Yettaw said that in Thailand he met with Bo Kyi of the Assistance Association for Political Prisoners (Burma) and made 10 visits to a clinic that serves refugees from Myanmar.

'He mentioned he was writing a book about torture victims,' recalled Bo Kyi, whose organization documents political arrests in Myanmar. He described Yettaw as 'not very professional,' 'a very emotional man' and 'a bit abnormal.'

A Thai Christian woman with whom Yettaw often talked at his hotel in Mae Sot described him as 'a friendly man' and 'selfless and religious.'

'Mostly we talked about the Bible,' said the woman, who insisted on anonymity to protect her privacy. Yettaw was on a spiritual mission and didn't care about politics, she said. 'He has more faith in God. He doesn't care if people ridicule him.'

She said he wanted Suu Kyi 'to know about God, to read the Bible, and to listen to sermons.'

On his first Myanmar visit he went to Suu Kyi's house, but was not allowed in to meet her. He left behind several religious tracts, including 'The Book of Mormon.'

'Yes, he brought reading material as a gift to one who is isolated,' acknowledged Betty Yettaw. 'There was religious history and some poetry with some of his own writing, I believe. He is aware that she is a devout Buddhist and was not hoping to convert her.'

[... ... ...]

Myanmar's national police chief, Gen. Khin Yi, told reporters late last month that Yettaw is 'the main culprit' in the affair, perhaps directed by or under the influence of the junta's enemies. He described him as 'an intelligent man and not unsound of mind as alleged by some opposition groups.' ↜Just M &thinsp;E her''e&#8202;,&#8202;now 18:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)"

PTSD diagnosis
The reason it is important to include Newsweek's questioning of the diagnosis, is there is no verification of the diagnosis - only hearsay. Kingturtle (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Kingturtle: OK (...although I'm still curious how Yettaw receives VA payments, as is now reported by the AP, absent his having been diagnosed with any disability). ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  19:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It is very difficult to tell what the AP has verified, what the AP has copied and what the AP is using just on hearsay. Kingturtle (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I suppose -- generally. (The precicsion of the Associated Press writer's mention of the VA's $3,157-per-month disability payments to Yettaw would seem to indicate the AP's having verification of the same, though, in my opinion.) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  19:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I must have missed that one :) Kingturtle (talk) 19:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Yettaw fasted 42-days straight starting 8 May ("later...62 days)
says Chief. ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  20:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. We can certainly cite this. Kingturtle (talk) 01:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe a list article for Americans having been detained or convicted abroad?

 * North Korea: ""After being released from custody by the North Koreans, Lee (Euna Lee) and Ling (Laura Ling) were flown back to Los Angeles with Clinton and his delegation in a Boeing 737 owned by Hollywood producer and Clinton friend Steve Bing's company Shangri-La Entertainment.[31][32] They landed at Bob Hope Airport on August 5, shortly before 6:00 a.m. local time (UTC−7), where they were met by family and friends, as well as Al Gore. Ling spoke to the media[...].""

- Wikipedia


 * Burma: "Yettaw[...]flew to Bangkok, the capital of neighbouring Thailand, accompanied by Webb, on a US military aircraft."

- Al Jazeera

The military plane sets down in Bangkok and the only reporter on the scene is from Voice of America? (link) ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  11:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Iran: Shon Meckfessel, Sarah Shourd, Joshua Fattal, Shane Bauer ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  10:52, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

You could create List of Americans detained or convicted abroad or you could create a category for it. Kingturtle (talk) 10:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Category is a good idea, thanks! (to Kingturtle). ↜Just M &thinsp;E here&#8202;,&#8202;now  11:15, 16 August 2009 (UTC)