Talk:Australia Day/Archive 1

Criticism
Removed the uncitedsection claim Western Australians didnt support Australia Day, seemed a bit of a joke to have that comment next to a picture of the Perth fireworks which HALF A MILLION people attended220.239.6.72 (talk) 06:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

ANZAC Day
Im going to be honest and say I cant see how on earth Australia day is related to ANZAC day, they are Australia's too most important national celebration days, however, they bear no directi relation to the other 220.239.6.72 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
The last three paragraphs bother me. They read more like a discussion of Australia Day than a NPOV statement. Should they come out? Arno 06:52, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * Speaking as an Australian, it's a point that does need to be made. But it does take up entirely too much of the article. - David Gerard 09:19, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * It's too much - in effect the entire article is a "Australia Day shopuld be changed" essay. That's what bothers me. Arno 05:52, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * I've done sections for 'Celebration', 'Criticism', 'Suggested changes to the date'. The third is actually an issue I've never heard much discussed. I'm really not sure it deserves that much of the article, though expanding the other sections would be preferable to just cutting it. A picture of the fireworks would be nice! Anyone get any this year, in any city? - David Gerard 12:15, Jan 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * Pretty good, it does seem more NPOV now. Arno 07:11, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * This whole article seems to be a an anti Australia day piece. I suggest that the criticism section be removed or moved to a new page. This article is not representative of the feelings of most Australians towards Australia Day. Tmothyh 23:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * To me, the critisism section is not referenced nearly enough. It needs to be redone, or removed as it damages the quality standards of the page (there are about 5 *citation needed* comments within the one paragraph). As Tmothyh stated, the critisim section is not representative of the feelins of most Australians. --Brynic 22:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Some references really are needed for the last two paragraphs of the section if they are to stay, and the weasel words should be removed/replaced as discussed below. (This section, referring to the article as it was 3 years ago, is hardly the sensible place to talk about it.) And for the millionth time, it doesn't matter whether one section is representative of the feelings of "most Australians" if it isn't claiming to be! JPD (talk) 10:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Link suggestion
This article is quite comprehensive but neglects the history of the day, as it was celebrated on january 26 from the early days of the colony. A good external link would be http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/austday.html


 * ooh, nice one! - David Gerard 10:32, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)

Misc
I've added links to the federal and State Australia Day pages. (Note that the States and Territories are listed in the conventional order, rather than alphabetically.)

I looked for some decent critical links. The one I've put here could be better (it's from Indymedia so it's just a little strident), but does address most of the usual criticisms. Might also be material for expanding the critical section. - David Gerard 10:30, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)

There still doesn't seem to be enough history of Australia Day in the article. There is a lot more history regarding the change of date, the reason for January 26, and the recent changes to make all states and territories celebrate it on the same day. I also disagree with the 'Criticisms' section - I think that more and more Australians are realizing the importance of Australia Day and this can be seen in the number of celebrations held around the country. I think the important part of Australia Day is that Australians celebrate being Australian by doing Australian things - what they believe is Australian, and celebrating the Australian way of life. I think we can make this article more informative if there are more facts and truths about the day.

I agree that the history of Australia Day could be expanded upon. It is the oldest public holiday in Australia, even if it wasn't celebrated in every state on the one day until 1994. The article dosen't even mention the fact the holiday used to be called 'foundation' day.

I must say this - the debate about changing the date of Australia Day does seem to be a minority preoccupation. I've seen more than one opinion poll on this subject - one a few years ago showed fully 77% of people preferred no change.

It is probably fair to say that the Australian public dosen't embrace their 'national' day like the people of other nations do theirs. However I don't think the date or the time of year has much to do with that. True patriotism is just in shorter supply in Australia. Compare the behaviour of the crowds attending the last Davis Cup finals in Spain and Australia and you will discover what I mean. (The central chair umpire had to tell the Spanish crowd to shut up after nearly every point their country won.)

Be that as it may, since the massive bicentenary celebrations in 1988 (which included a reenactment of the voyage from England to Australia by the First Fleet) public particpiation in Australia Day events has grown in each succesive year. Six million Australians turn out on Australia Day annually.

It should also be noted that it is most unlikely agreement will be ever be reached on a alternative date.

My "Amazing But True Golf Facts" daily desk calendar marks Jan 28, 2008 as Austrailia Day in Australia-except NSW. More specific but less accurate than Wiki?


 * I'm not sure why you chose the middle of an old section to post this question, but Jan 26 is Australia Day, 28th is the public holiday for 2008 because the 26th falls on a weekend. -- Chuq (talk) 02:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

If we are going to have that shit about invasion day on this page why don't we include an image of some tall ships from the massive Australia Day celebration in 1988? Why exactly is it that we can have an Australia Day page that discusses a walk over Sydney Harbour Bridge yet I can't even learn about the reenactmment of the First Fleet's voyage in '87-'88.

This article is well below wikipedia's standard. Australia Day has a past as well as a present - Australia Day is criticised by somme at the mmoment but these elites will move on to another topic in time. Australia's oldest public holiday will weather the storm. If you read this page as it is you might get the misleading idea that Australia Day is in immentent danger of being moved from January 26th.

In fact what is stated above is true - six million Australians do turn up to Australia Day celebrations annually. A tiny number go to aboriginal demostrations and this apparently makes them feel better so good luck to them, but really, this dissent gets more air time then it is worth.

p.s. I've heard the NSW police estimated that only 100,000 people walked over the Sydney Harbour Bridge. We might want to check that figure out. But what does it really matter anyway?

Not long ago in Australia a governmment agency - the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Comisssion (ATSIC) - was abolished. Separate elected representation for 'Indigenous' people also went down the gurgler with it and it is very difficult to see a future Prime Minister wanting to bring it back. Some radical black activists used to call ATSIC 'our governmment' and had the idea in their heads that it was the first step towards a separate black parliamment and and an aboriginal state like native Canadians have. How wrong these radical activists were!

Political correctness is clearly comming to a thudding halt in Australia. Aboriginies are just going to have to accept the fact that they are just an ethnic minority within the Australian state. Those people who walked over the bridge are just going to have to accept this fact too.

Six out of ten aboriginies are in a relationship with a non-aboriginie so an awful lot of blacks are signalling their approval of the arrival of Europeans into Australia. That's an extraordinary rate of 'marrying out'.

Note for non Australians reading the above; Australia is probably the world's only country where elite is a term of abuse - it implies that the target hold's opinions at variance with the prime minister. Shame.

That said, I do agree with the above author in one respect - the history wars/black armband/white blindfold/invasion day discussion is not the central theme of Australia day for most Australians.

Perhaps it deserves its own page, referenced from this one?

"Australian day is the best, and everyone should love it!" I think this comment is non-neutral, highly opinionated, and should be removed. It probably does not follow Wikipedia's standards either.

I would also like to respond to the comments posted two posts before mine (as of the time I am posting). I think it is silly to presume that just because an aboriginal marries/cohabits with a white person that it means that he is willing to accept historical oppression.

You said: "Political correctness is clearly comming [stet] to a thudding halt in Australia. Aboriginies [stet] are just going to have to accept the fact that they are just an ethnic minority within the Australian state."

Sounds eerily similar to the attitude of many white Americans prior to the Civil Rights Era here in the States (and still today, though usually through more covert measures). By your reasoning, your group should have more rights simply because your group is bigger. Anybody who does not like it should just shut up. Then you brush off the opposing view by saying they are trying to be "politically correct." Let's not forget that various totalitarian regimes have used this same kind of thinking to manipulate millions of otherwise clear-headed people into slaughtering many innocents. Thank God for freedom of speech.

Ideally, "politically correct" should have a positive meaning, as it reflects a society that keeps altruism and respect of fellow man high on the list of its priorities. Case in point: I'll take a politically correct Australia or America of today over a politically correct Nazi Germany of a few decades ago.

--Raphael 22:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Please add my name as an Australian who is vaguely embarrassed at most of the views above. While yes, most Australian don't care about Australia Day one way or another, except as a public holiday, there are a sizeable portion of Australians who understand that we as a nation should be ashamed of the way we destroyed a culture and took their land. I would ask the editors who frequent this page to keep an eye out for those who want to remove all statements about the awareness that some Australians at least have for the harm we inflicted. Sad mouse 03:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The point that some people often seem to overlook is that when they say things like "we as a nation did bad things to the indigenous population", they exclude the indigenous people from the nation. The indigenous people are just as much part of the nation as everybody else.  If they're talking about the British colonists and their descendants who did the bad stuff, that's no better since they're really saying the nation is what the British made it and the indigenous people were just bystanders and victims.  It's time to stop this guilt-laden and divisive "we did this to them" stuff, and start using language that includes ALL Australians in "the Australian nation".  There is no "us" and them" in a unified nation.   We're all "US".   JackofOz 07:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Day
The mention of the walk across the harbour bridge would definitely better in a seperate article about 26th May, which for a while was called "Sorry Day". It relates to reconciliation, but not directly to Australia day.

Australia Pwnz Day
For me, as an Australian, the name "Australia Day" doesn't have any impact, and I don't really care about it. I propose changing the name to Australia Pwnz Day. It would have more emotional impact. :-) --Jibjibjib 05:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait until we've got the 219 runs to win --Paul 06:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

(offensive and racist comment removed) JackofOz (talk) 02:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sections
Would it be a good idea to have some sections that outline the main events that take place in each state/major city? e.g. in Sydney they always have the tall ships, fireworks etc while i think in Perth they have some annual swim/triathlon type thing (i'm not too sure)

info box
Mm... can't say I'm a fan of that infobox. Surely not every single article on WP requires an infobox. pfctdayelise (translate?) 21:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

History section
I've added a start on a history section. Please expand and modify! Nloth 05:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Image
Does the "Australia Day Eve celebraton" image REALLY need to be in this article? I mean, it doesn't really show anything apart from the fact that Aussies go a lil bit wild on Australia Day, and will use any excuse (Australia Day Eve?) for a drink and a party. Perhaps a more appropriate photo? ABVS1936 11:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * At the expense of upsetting the original editor who posted this photograph I agree with the point being made here - this photograph does not enhance the article at all - it could be a photo after the cricket, football or anything quite frankly. I am for removal. -- VS talk...images 12:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have removed this image - it is not of a type that enhances this particular article. It is non-specific, not specifically informative and looks more like a personal shot of three mates. -- VS  talk...images 10:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed some crap
''"Australia Day barbecues and pool parties are the norm, and the day usually creates a great outpouring of nationalist sentiment.

This has often been regarded by some critics as racist towards the many different cultures that coexist within the country's borders ."''

That part is rubbish. Nationalistic sentiment =/= racism. Moreover, the supporting ref links to nowhere. So it's been cut.

Weebs 12:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, this is not just "some crap", or "rubbish". Reverted revision and fixed link.
 * Daniel Zimirk 12:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Whilst not quite an edit war there is a lot of to and fro on this part of the article. I put up a suggestion for citations earlier today and whilst I can see both points of view the fact is that if these points can not be verified by good and meaningful citations (given the broadness of the comments) then all of this part or the parts not references should be removed.  I suggest give it a day or three at the most and then removal (if necessary) is fair and Zimirk should allow Weebs or whomever to remove without the edits being reverted.  After all fellow editors - these items can be returned at any time if the points are verified - and quite frankly they should not be included if they are not so verified. -- VS  talk...images 12:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * PS The current reference to an Aboriginal Sign being stolen on Australia Day is non sequitur with regards barbeques and pool parties being an outpouring of national sentiment which is considered racist by some critics ... Stealing a sign is theft, and it may at times be racist but it does not follow in terms of the way that it is attempting to link and verify the two sentences above it. This reference may belong somewhere in the article but not here - in my view it should be removed immediately! -- VS  talk...images 12:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

While, as with most of these sorts of comments, there is some truth in them, and so it is not quite rubbish, it is weasel words and unverified. As VirtualSteve says, the link provided is not a reference for the claims made. Even if parties were becoming the norm, the exaggerated "great outpouring of nationalistic sentiment" definitely hasn't been around long enough to say it is "usual"! JPD (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would say that nationalist sentiment would be an accurate description about the feelings that Australia Day brings about in people. A recent example of this would be the number of people displaying the Australian flag in protest to the flag-ban at the Big Day Out. A quick glance at the article on Nationalism would suffice in order to explain why patriotism is considered nationalist.
 * Daniel Zimirk 03:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Daniel as you can see people are having problems with the way this article is currently non-encyclopedic at this point. I have initially adjusted the sentence to remove some of the exaggerated weazel words.  Secondly I have removed the first reference.  It is simply does not support the paragraph it is attached to.  I have left the second reference at this stage - I think the jury should have time to consider this one for a bit longer.  Can I stress - this is not about not understanding the point of view but it is about using proper references. I certainly am not trying to upset you and your views on this and so I have one other suggestion as follows - If this point is important to you (and others) it should be made more critically and carefully. You should first redlink the words "Invasion Day" and "Survival Day" (both are the same day) and then create a single page that directs/redirects readers to this point of view in full.  That would IMHO be the encylopedic thing to do.-- VS  talk...images 10:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

My problem with the statement is that I don't see how nationalistic sentiment can be directly linked with racism. Nationalism and patriotism mean love for ones country, not ones ethnic or racial group. 58.84.208.31 12:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Daniel, I am not saying that the controversy-causing flag-flying is not "nationalist", I am questioning whether there really is a "great outpouring" of this sentiment, especially when as you say a lot of it was in reaction to the reported ban, not simply a response to Australia Day. On top of that, even if this really is as big as you suggest recently, it hasn't been going on long enough to say it "usually" happens!
 * As for the anon's comments, I think the point is that much of the "nationalist sentiment" that Daniel refers to has been associated (fairly or unfairly) with racism by critics. This doesn't mean that nationalism is being directly linked with racism, but even if it were, that wouldn't be the issue for us. We can report on any notable criticism made, even if we think the links made are invalid. The main problem is still the fact that it is unverified and weaselly. JPD (talk) 17:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT

 * I have moved the latest reference by Daniel from where he originally placed it and noted reasons in edit summary. I do not do so with a firm belief that it is a useful reference as it is about an article that refers in the main to allegations of Police actions - only mentioning Invasion Day at the very start.  Others may not like the reference (I personally think it is quite weasely because it purports to verify the Invasion issue when in fact it does not) but I will leave the decision for it to stay or go for others to decide at this stage. -- VS  talk...images 11:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * PS and on second glance I have renewed requests for facts in at least two areas. Daniel you really must stop removing other editors legitimate requests for such citations. What you are doing in my opinion is reducing the veracity of any argument you could make and you seem to be in danger of failing WP:NOT.  Please can you read your own reference again - doesn't it just (at best) support your contention that a small (it is after all only 500 people) marched on a day that they call Invasion Day etc - it certainly does not support the view (please note my highlighted emphasis) that non- Aboriginal Australians are celebrating the decimation of Aboriginal peoples, the confiscation of their lands and the destruction of their culture, or even that Aboriginal peoples are of the belief that non-Aboriginal peoples are doing this when they celebrate Australia Day in any way - as this part of the article suggests? -- VS  talk...images 12:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Denial Of Historic Fact
Ever since I began editing this page I have been met with criticism and rebuke for my attempts to offer a balanced argument on the topic of criticisms of Australia Day. While the original wording of the section was not mine, I attempted to work with what was there. Every time I made a change to either back something up or to make things appear either more truthful and not so one-sided, I have been refused. The fact that the reference to a research paper concerned with Genocide in Australia was deemed not relevant to the reasons why Aborigines and their supporters deem Australia Day as worthy of criticism seems to prove that Australia is in a state of denial over historic facts, and the citizens of this country are willing to accept the glossed over fairy tale that right-wing politicians believe we should all swallow without question. Since this page appears to accept only a one-sided point of view, I will not attempt to edit this page in the future, due to the narrow-mindedness of those that would ignore history over arrogant pride. Daniel Zimirk 12:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think this has anythign to do with denying historic fact, it is about using this page for soapboxing. The issue of genocide in Australia is indeed an important issue (although it is important to write about it from a neutral point of view), but the paper you linked to does not mention Australia Day at all and is only tangentially relevant, and not a source for anything contained in the article, particularly once the reference to genocide had been removed. Similarly, a report about "Invasion Day" and people stealing a protest sign about Australia day is not a source for criticism of general nationalist sentiment as racist. The problem seems to be that your links don't seem to actually be connected to the text. The next question is whether the word genocide is included. I tend to think that the issues could be presented openly without having to have the inevitable arguments over that word. These issues should be covered in other articles on Wikipedia, but for this one it would be better to focus on the facts concerning Australian Day in particular, giving links to the articles where the historical issues are covered. JPD (talk) 12:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Daniel, I second what JPD (and others) have been saying and trying to say - expecially with regards the comment (as I have made now on numerous occasions also) that the problem seems to be that your links don't seem to actually be connected to the text. Indeed although some of your references have been nonsensical in terms of the connection to Australia Day almost everyone has been nice in terms of pointing that out. These have not been attacks but requests to write encyclopedically towards the article on Australia Day.  This is (the same request that is generally or overtly made for every article on Wiki) - which judging by your profile and other outputs you are otherwise able to do. With respect it seems quite churlish now to start calling those that legitimately request such input as narrow-minded, arrogant, prideful etc.  I agree with your suggestion to not edit this page - but you should only stop until such time as you realise that presenting the truth requires you to be diligent in terms of the linkage of references to the correct article.  Once you have worked that out - then please come back to this article as a better editor. Alternatively - as I politely suggested many edits ago - write or add to other articles that reflect the point you are making and to which the references that you are finding may have some relevance. -- VS  talk...images 22:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This page is very poor
User:b1_ March 5, 2007

It does not communicate what it means to be an Australian on Australia day at all well. Needs to be simplified for one. Sorry day stuff is most certainly not 1/4 of what Australia day is about. A single point and a link to a seperate entry, please. What about the concept of mateship and of giving everyone a fair go? What about the outback and country australia. What about the national anthem and the alternative national anthem (Aussies know what I mean). There needs to be some attempt to convey to an outsider what it means to be australian - an attempt to convey australian culture, and this includes aboriginal culture. The article needs to be more positive, it is a celebration day afterall.


 * No, this article should be neutral, whether the day is a celebration or not. More importantly, it is an article about the day and it's celebrations, not about "what it means to be Australian" in general. Including more info on celebrations would be good, but the fact is that for better or worse, Australians haven't historically made a big deal out of Australia Day. JPD (talk) 16:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Australia Day is not just about the big celebrations on the day. It also about what individuals get up to on the day and what the day means to australians. If it means very little then that needs mentioning also with references. I have a vague idea that historically it has not been celebrated with gusto but I would like to see some proof. With 500,000 at the Perth celebrations last year I'd say it means something to most people at the moment.


 * Yes the article should be neutral, but not at the expense of distorting reality. This article sacrifices truth in the name of polititical correctness. Someone reading this entry in its current form 100yrs from now would get the impression that the aboriginal protest celebration Invasion Day was a big part of the identity of the day. This is not the reality and this article has been hi-jacked by a protest entry. It should be under a heading of "Recent Developments" perhaps, because that is what it is, and have a link to a separate page dedicated to it, because it is a separate issue.


 * I'm also not sure mentioning the Big Day Out is neutral. That's a youth event ie specific to a certain group of australians. Should we be mentioning it and ommitting the RSL Bingo Australia Day Extravaganza? To me it is an indication very few older people contribute to Wikipedia because they're not net savvy. A weakness of the concept of Wikipedia perhaps. User:b1_ March 7, 2007


 * You're right that it's not just about big celebrations, but obviously they are the ones that have the most written about them, and so they get written about first. It's not anything to do with political correctness. The fact is that the day has been a day of protest for some groups since the 1930s at least. It's not a recent development, and it doesn't belong on a separate page, because it really is about the nature of the day. To say it is a separate issue is to completely misunderstand not only the protests, but history as well (after all, you mixed it up with Sorry Day). I don't think the article suggests the protest events are a huge part of the day in general, but if it does distort anything, it is only because the information on celebrations is so short, and the answer is to expand that. JPD (talk) 11:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Big Day Out is in some ways similar to the protest events in that it is important to certain groups. In fact, most of Australia Day events are like this to some extent. The neutral approach is describe all the ones that invovle significant numbers of people. If you have sources for the Bingo event (is this a national thing, just in Ballina, or...?), then add it. JPD (talk) 11:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there is a misunderstanding here. For me the average Australian is not celebrating the landing of the British Fleet (Australian don't like the British - Australians are decended from the convicts locked up in the hull of the ships that followed the first fleet), nor are we celebrating, indirectly, Federation and the gaining of the independence from the British like the Americans might celebrate Independence Day because there was no war preceding it and hence little associated feeling is attached to it. What the average Australian is celebrating is being Australian, and reflecting on what that means. There is a communal sense of pride, general flag waving and acknowledgement of how lucky we are to be living in a wealthy, tolerant, free, generous, safe land of plenty. We give thanks for how lucky we are and are encouraged to get out among fellow Australians to celebrate our good fortune. This is far removed from Invasion Day and the message it is trying to put out, that Aborigines were almost wiped out by the British, and have been oppressed ever since by Australians. The two are linked by its historical context but that's as far as it goes with regard the meaning of the day for most Australians. Hence why I say they are separate, meaning it deserves a mention and a link but not a paragraph. The protestors of course want it to be one and the same issue. That rather than feel pride and community on the day, Australians should feel shame and guilt.


 * The article just comes across as a little amateurish to me when comparing it to, say, the Wikipedia entry on "Australia" or the one on "Independence Day" which seem more polished. To be fair it's most likely just a case of 'not finished yet' though, which is why we're here.


 * User:b1_ March 8, 2007


 * The day originates as anniversary, and so celebrates that anniversary. Different people and groups throughout history have attached different messages to this anniversary. The fact that they can be quite different does not mean that they are separate issues. Of course it is natural that the day develops into a general celebration of Australia as a country and it's institutions which in many ways trace their history back to that day. However, I think you will find that the Australia Day as "being Australia, and reflecting on what that means" view, together with the "general flag waving" and so on, without reference to the anniversary, is a much more recent development than the Aboriginal protests. Remember that this article is not only about how Australia Day is celebrated now, but also about its history. It is also not about what you think the average Australian is celebrating ("For me, the average Australian..."). There isn't any "average Australian", and the article isn't even about only what "most Australians" think. Minority views are separate views on the same issue (including what it means to be Australian, and whether some actually are lucky to be so), whether they are saying that there isn't much to celebrate or that it isn't a good day to celebrate it. A good article puts all the views together, in context. You are right that this isn't a very good article, but I don't think that removing any material is the way to make it better. JPD (talk) 13:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Have there really been organised rallys by aboriginals, on Australia Day, between 1938 and 1988? I can't say I have heard of them. Have we got any links for reference? I referred to Invasion Day as a recent development because I had only first heard of it in 2005. I was aware of various protests back to 1988. As far as I know the title "Invasion Day" is recent. I have no doubt aborigines have felt disenfranchised every year since 1788 but have aboriginal Australia Day protests been ongoing back to the 1930s?


 * The problem with the article is that it is not conveying the majority view - what Australia Day means to most people in Australia today. It's fine to include minority views but where's the majority view (and for that matter, where's the other minority views of, for example, ethnic Australians and how they celebrate the day)? Here's a detailed and fully referenced article on the day that communicates well where we're at: http://www.australiaday.com.au/studentresources/history.aspx The last paragraph before chronology sums it up pretty well. I thought the article was an interesting read. A nice summary of the evolution of the meaning of the day to Australians through the centuries.


 * User:b1_ March 10, 2007


 * I'm not really sure what difference it makes whether protest were called "Invasion Day" or "Day of Mourning" or whatever else. They aren't a recent development, whether the names are or not. I don't know much about the years between 1938 and 1988, as they didn't attract as much attention, but the tent embassy in Canberra started on Australia Day 1972. An Aboriginal boycott is recorded even earlier in 1888.
 * As you say, the problems with the article are mainly missing information. The solution is to add the information. Be bold and do it yourself (but log in first!) The article you give is quite a good source, as you say, although as a publication of the Australia Day Council, it is worth toning down the promotional side of it in some places. JPD (talk) 17:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Summary inaccurate
From my reading, the 26th is not the day of landing, but the day when Authur Philip "took formal possession of the colony" a small difference, but, I think one worth noting. --Riccodecicco 11:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

BioShock
This is a relatively minor thing, but this day of 1959 is mentioned in Bioshock. The password to one of the doors is 0126, or Jan 26th. Don't know if it's worthy. Frvwfr2 00:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced claims
I have removed the following statements from the article:
 * "There is no great sense of attachment to Australia Day by some Australians from the Eastern coast either."
 * "In recent years, Australia Day has been celebrated more intensely by all, Anglo-Australians in particular, and the day creates nationalist sentiment."
 * "Critics regard this nationalist sentiment as racist towards the many different cultures that coexist within the country's borders, especially the Aborigines."

The first two are either original research or an individual's point of view for which no sources have been provided despite fact tags dating back to January. The third is already covered in earlier parts of the article.

As always, other views and comments welcome but if you think these should be re-added to the article please provide some sources to support them. Thanks. Euryalus 20:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Invasion day?
(Removed some extremely offensive and rascist material) 203.217.66.134 (talk) 06:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

HI
HELLO AUSTRALIA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.212.214 (talk) 09:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Invasion Day?
It is rediculous including "Invasion Day" as one of the other names that Australia Day is referred as. This is only used by Indigenous Australians (Aboriginals), whom only make up 2.6% of the Australian population. 121.221.24.78 (talk) 03:19, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. Many Anglo-Australians do not support Australia Day, preferring to recognise the rights of Indigenous Australians. Not only that, Invasion Day is a very notable part of Australia Day 'celebrations' and shouldn't be discounted as a view held by a small minority. &raquo; \ / (⁂ | ※) 03:37, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The Aboriginals were here for about 40 000 years before the white people came and declared it "empty land" (terra nullius). They ignored the reality here and to the Aborigines the white people "invaded" their territory with inadequate discussion and negotiation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.68.157.161 (talk) 05:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As there still seems to be some disagreement, I have requested a WP:3O on the matter. &raquo; \ / (⁂ | ※) 02:17, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Invasion Day should not appear in the first line as if it is an alternate, official name of the holiday - it is not. There is a section on "Invasion day" which should stay, and this section should be enough. We are describing the official holiday, the article is about the official holiday, so only official names should be listed in the opening line. (In an article about a film, only official titles would appear in the first line, not fan-invented nicknames for the film, whether they be complimentary or not.) Format (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll remove it. &raquo; \ / (⁂ | ※) 02:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion
(Assuming Format's opinion was not an official 3O!) I think it can stay. Wikipedia prefers common names to official names so there is no requirement that only official names appear as alternative names. Thus, for example, the article Independence Day (United States) includes the Fourth of July as well as the Fourth, though neither of these is an official name. The only question, in my mind, is whether Invasion Day is a fringe concept. I've never heard of it but a google search pulls up quite a few references to protests, solidarity marches, etc. in the form of an Invasion Day alternative to Australia Day. There even appears to be a movement asking the Aussie PM to move Australia Day to a different date so that it doesn't clash with Invasion Day. Seems non-fringe enough to be included and I suggest it stay. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 03:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Invasion Day is the name of the protest against European settlement of Australia. Calls to move Australia Day are not because it clashes with protests held on the same day that protest against Australia day - the protests would be held on whatever day the thing commemorating what they are protesting againt is held. Format (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm in favour of its inclusion for the reasons RegentsPark gave. Whether it is a fringe concept has to put into context. While Indigenous Australians are a small minority, they are the most notable and recognised minority in Australia, and nearly every Australia Day, Invasion Day protests are reported in the news. Certainly not a fringe concept, the rights of Indigenous Australians can be rather polarising in view that has always had a place in Australian politics. (Rudd's Apology is a good example of a recent event &raquo; \ / (⁂ | ※) 04:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree with the reasons to keep Invasion Day as a name that Australia Day is referred to. Although the view of the Australian Aboriginal population should be recognised, the day celebrates not only the arrival of the first fleet but also "what is great" about Australia (hence, the motto of Australia Day - "Celebrate what's great!". It is the national day of Australia and politics should be kept out of it. I suggest that a secondary, separate article be created for "Invasion Day", or have a section within the article for the viewpoint of the Indigenous population, but remove it from the first line of the article. 121.215.153.186 (talk) 03:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

THE UMP-TEENTH OPINION: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.131.213.170 (talk) 05:21, 13 January 2010 (UTC) CONGRATULATIONS WIKIPEDIA...for allowing some reflections on your international resource.

"INVASION DAY" SHOULD BE INCORPORATED INTO DEFINING "AUSTRALIA DAY".

1. The "officials" of King George 111, who landed and claimed title from 1788, of property in the Sydney Cove area, did so knowing full well, that humans beings, from a different culture, had already occupied that land. These officials, also knew they had superior military arms to enforce their wishes against any attempt by senior indigenous law makers to resist that occupation. 2. The Latin vocabulary ( terra nullius )came in handy to skirt that reality and redress that occupation with officialdom word labels, as a way to sanitize the conscience a little, and pronounce the new law on all human beings in the territory taken with the King's name and powers. 3. Two centuries later, the practical meaning of "terra nullius" is unfolding (eg community debate: from the Marbo case decided by the Australian High Court, or the relevance of human rights, or avoiding being an independent Republic ). Internet, Google and Wikipedia technology allow us as individuals to research any "official" word label/name or meanings to the forces in history. This is progress to deny the spin merchants sympathetic to King George 111's descendants, their glorious media monopoly on the way things from their "God" must go on.

4. Given that Sydney Cove in 1788 is near the beginning of "Australia Day", (on what ever day, latter day officials choose) spare a thought for King George 111, who was not a happy chappy at that very time, on account of difficulties in the Americas. The French military logistics had helped George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and other founders of the U.S. of A. to deny his Royal Highness his priveleged, above the salt decrees. By force of arms, the officials of King George 111, were sent back home, and the Constitution of the U.S.of A. prohibited them from any future in that domain. 5. "George III, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith", is reported as the official Sovereign and Royal Title in whose military power and law "Australia Day" commenced.

The Latin version, supposed to give one that extra zing in royal primacy, as in the sterling moments of the Roman Empire, pre or post the "Holy" period, after Emperor Constantine 325 AD.

"GEORGIUS*TERTIUS*DEI*GRATIA* BRITANNIARUM*REX*FIDEI*DEFENSOR"

Reference to Royal titles: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Royal+titles+and+styles.-a0179456487 6. Hoity toity pompous defenders of the Royal Order on Australia Day will choose to sneer their predilections with carrot and stick, but DEMOCRACY is no champion of Sovereign rule. Australia Day should have more to do with "independence", and human civil-rights within a working democracy and less to do with the nostalgia of British colonial might. In so far as thinking and thought is part of the program for the future, the thoughts of Thomas Jefferson must rank as a necessary read for developing the future of Australia Day.

7. As an caucasian aussie, the freedom of speech entitles "Invasion Day" to be within the current definition of Australia Day, irrespective of self appointed official "historians" who are too keen to tell us what to think and censor people's rights to re-define where national loyalties are best served. Australia Day must be more than an appendage of the descendants of Royal Highnesses from King George 111.

Fourth opinion
In my view, presenting alternative (and largely negative) titles to national holidays as though they were viable, widely-used labels, creates a disturbing precedent. Any disaffected group who regards any national holiday as an anniversary to protest should be represented - it is purely arbitrary to accord this only to Indigeneous Australians. My opinion has always been that an article on national celebrations should deal with that subject matter first and foremost - its history, observance and practice - and give appropriate place to political disputation within a relevant section later in the article.

I point out that "Invasion Day" is not an official term; it is not widely used by Australians - hence cannot be described as "common usage"; it is not an accurate term (an invasion is primarily a military function not analogous to colonisation) and in any case, does not contribute to the meaning and understanding of this national holiday. The plight of Indigenous Australians and various historical controvesies are adequately addressed elsewhere.

Earlier in this discussion page, an effort was made to make a connection between the "Fourth of July" and "Fourth" as examples of common usage which differs from the official term. These examples cannot be used as analogous to the term "Invasion Day" for readily apparent reasons:

1. Making reference to the date on which a national holiday falls does not present a new political concept, as inherent in "Invasion Day". One may talk of "26 January" or the "25 December" in lieu of the official names, yet these still represent neutral terms for the national holiday falling on the nominated date.

2. They do not attempt to besmirch the national holiday. Although we must be impartial reporters, I do believe respect for national customs and sensitivity toward national institutions are important to consider in any reasonable effort to write an article. No one in their right mind would insert Neo-NAZI perspectives into articles describing commemorative holidays that surround the Holocaust; nobody insists on Turkish perspectives on ANZAC Day. Respect for cultural institutions should be inherent in any article addressing them - alternative and negative perspectives have their place, but not as presented in this manner.

For these reasons and others, I have removed the reference to "Invasion Day", unless compelling alternative arguments can be mounted to the contrary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.178.234 (talk • contribs)


 * I agree with the above opinion. The name "Invasion Day" is not used by the overall majority of the Australian population, and is not identified by a significant enough slice of the population for it to be included as an alternative term for the day. Certainly, the views of the Australian Indigenous population should and have been included on this page, under the separate heading "Other Uses". I disagree, however, with including "Invasion Day" in the first line of this article for the above reasons given. Kostanza (talk) 03:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree with user:58.7.178.234. Invasion Day is a common enough term to merit 11,600,000 hits on a WP:GOOGLETEST. That quantity is higher than one half of the population of Australia and much higher than that of the most populous state, New South Wales. It stands to reason that most Australian adults would understand the meaning of the name, "Invasion Day". To clarify things, Australia Day only merits 182,000,000 hits, which is about only about nine times the AU population despite being our one national holiday. Even our [Australia Day National Conference 2009 http://www.australiaday.org.au/events/files/uf1hwh_Conference%20Program%20and%20session%20summaries.pdf] refers to Invasion Day. To ignore the National Government's interpretation of Australia Day would grossly disturb WP:NPOV. BTW, although I cherish Australia and Aboriginal culture, I find the name Invasion Day needlessly divisive compared to alternatives like Survival Day. The reality though is that any discussion of Australia Day would be negligent if it disregarded Invasion Day. Warmest Regards, :)--thecurran Speak your mind my past 12:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Placing Invasion Day next to Australia Day is misleading for the reader. It implies the term is commly used, like 4th of July.  It is not.   The media may be drawn to the name due to its dramatic quality, but it is rarely used by Australians to refer to Australia Day.  If Invasion Day is there why not Survival Day?  Aboriginal objection to the celebration is noteworthy and should be mentioned in the article, but I reiterate, it is misleading to place Invasion Day next to Australia Day.--124.183.141.101 (talk) 04:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * There is bigotry and/or ignorance on display in that last post. But it's to be expected.


 * Objection to Australia Day is not just from Aboriginal people. In my case it from a white Caucasian who wants our national day to be fully inclusive, rather than commemorating a day when we excluded a whole group of people. Australia has an acknowledged problem that many non-Aboriginal people never meet, socialise or work with Aboriginal people. This inevitably leads to ignorance of the real issues, along with a normal human fear of something they know little about, and hence feel threatened by. It leads to aggressive statements such as those on display in this Section. To reject a name because it is not used in the inevitably narrow world of many white Australians is actually not rational. It's just insular. Please take a broader view of the issue. Learn more about it. Understand it. Don't agree with a different view if you don't want to, but don't make that decision in ignorance. HiLo48 (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Err... I was objecting to the placement of the term "Invasion Day", not the term itself. It's already covered in the info box under "also called" next to "Survival Day" which somehow doesn't deserve such prominence. But feel free to label me a bigot and proceed with your patronising post--Wikipedia is no place to assume good faith!--121.216.137.173 (talk) 03:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * My style was triggered by your words "Aboriginal objection to the celebration...." It looked like ignorance. I am white. I object. HiLo48 (talk) 03:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm aware that white people can object to the day, but objection is spearheaded by the Aboriginal community--as it should be (if it were otherwise it would be quite degrading and presumptuous). What I wrote didn't necessarily rule out white objection.  I'm sorry if I appeared to show a "them vs us" mentailty.--121.216.137.173 (talk) 04:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I would ask people to please register rather than posting anon comments, which can be a cause for concern. That aside, the article does not list "Invasion Day" as an official title but rather mentions later in the introduction that this is the term groups with certain issues may use. Rotovia (talk) 10:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: Australia Day
I respectfully disagree with the points that 58 and 127 have raised above, and have replaced the Invasion Day reference along with a citation to this morning's Age Newspaper. My reasons for doing so: 1. A title does not need to be an officially endorsed name to warrant inclusion, such was pointed out in the 'Fourth' example. However, 58 made a good point that the Fourth is neutral, while Invasion Day is negative. I agree. 2. Invasion Day is, to be honest, a minority view in mainstream Australian society. To most people, it smacks of irrelevance - just some uni students protesting for no good reason. Yet somehow, Invasion Day always gets airtime on the news, always gets mentioned in the paper. While some will dismiss the protests as rubbish, they are an annual, well-covered event that, for better or worse, have been and will be a part of Australia Day. 3. 58 raised the issue of Neo-Nazi perspectives on the Holocaust. Clearly this is an exaggerated comparison, but his other example is intriguing. In recent years there has been a growing push towards recognising the Turkish perspectives on ANZAC Day. I can't find the link, but I do remember there was a level of controversy regarding whether ex-Turk troops should be allowed to march alongside the ANZACs. It is not a matter of cultural respect, but a matter of impartiality. In Turkey, Gallipoli would be remembered completely differently - the article on the battle should not be written through Australian eyes only. Similarly, we cannot discount Invasion Day protests as something 'they' do. 4. The article, in the lead sentence, contains three positive names for the Day, two of which I have never heard used before. (doesn't mean they aren't, I just haven't heard them.) Only one is negative. In the interests of balance, I think even there is it put into perspective. Cheers. &raquo; \ / (⁂ | ※) 03:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to disagree on some of your points. The first sentence of the article says it is about "the official national day of Australia", and it makes no sense to say "Invasion Day is is the official national day of Australia". 'Invasion Day' is a name invented by critics of the celebration, whereas the other three names given have all been official names for the celebration over the years. Placing the "Invasion Day" name in the lead therefore gives it undue weight, for what is clearly a very small minority viewpoint. Reference to the Independence Day lead section isn't particularly helpful, because in addition to being a case of other stuff exists, the "Fourth of July" name is widely used by a substantial number of Americans, in contrast to the minimal use of "Invasion Day" among Australians. So, in my opinion it's better off left out of the lead sentence. The section should stay, though, as should the existing reference lower down in the lead section about "Invasion Day" protests. - Mark 16:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I don't agree but it is not worth kicking and screaming about, especially since it appears I'm in the minority. I'm content with the sentence left out, as it is now. &raquo; \ / (⁂) 16:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggested changes to the date
AussieLegend has just reverted an edit where Rodney214 had mentioned another possible date for Australia Day, asking in the Edit Summary, "Has it ever been suggested as an alternate date?" Well, while Rodney124 probably went too far in his approach, the answer to that question is obviously Yes. Clearly Rodney124 has suggested it. Maybe others have too. The article mentions quite a few alternative dates. I could list several others. Wattle Day, 1st August, is a date occasionally proposed by snow sports enthusiasts since it would fall within the ski season. I could cite good references for that fact too. But it highlights a difficulty with this sort of entry in Wikipedia. How far do we go? HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Find the references, then we can include it. The suggested changes only mention the most well known or popular suggestions, so if there is another evidently widespread suggestion feel free to include it. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 06:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Australia was a colony in 1788, it was a self-governing colony in 1901(not an independent nation), it was still subject to a higher power in 1931 and 1942. We were both Australian citizens and British subjects up until 1983. A referendum on becoming a republic could not have been held prior to 1986 without asking for permission from the United Kingdom. Post 1986 we do not need permission from anybody we can do it when we please.

Compare the following clauses, the Australia Act 1986 should have been called the Australian Independence Act 1986.

Indian Independence Act 1947 4) No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed... shall extend, or be deemed to extend, to either or the new Dominions as part of the law of that dominion unless it is extended thereto by a law of the Legislature of the Dominion.

Australia Act 1986 (Cth) ((1) No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed... shall extend, or be deemed to extend, to the Commonwealth, to a State or to a Territory as part of the law of the Commonwealth, of the State or of the Territory.

Isn't wikipedia about educating and the sharing of ideas?

Fringe discussion debate: The way forward
I firmly believe the Australia Day debate fits the definition of a true fringe discussion.

Should we refer this issue to mediation and arbritration?

124.183.114.44 (talk) 06:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes please. Obviously, now that you have started this section we need to draw the attention of others to the conversation below under The overwhelming support for Australia Day. What you present there as facts I see as a blatantly POV purpose behind your change. I'd be happy for others to join the discussion too. HiLo48 (talk) 08:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

If any of the facts and figures are wrong please feel free to correct me.

I had to fight quite a big battle just to get those assimilation stats into the wikipedia article on Indigenous Australians.

Victory is nothing without a struggle though.

124.183.114.44 (talk) 08:21, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

One of your "facts" that seems to be at the base of your argument is this - "Aborigines have dysgenic traits, which are those that deteriorate with intermarriage." In my humble opinion, based on considerable study of and working with Australian Aboriginal people, that is utter rubbish. Your statistics don't mean much to me either. I've already explained why. (I note that that poll you have turned into "scientific pollS" is actually almost six years old. That strengthens my view about its lack of relevance.) As I said, happy for others' opinions. HiLo48 (talk) 08:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Exactly - lack of relevance of the "debate". Why would the figures have changed? We've hardly heard a peep out of anyone about changing the day since then.

It's going back in. That same poll is cited in the wikipedia article on the Australian flag.

If you think that australian aborigines don't have dysgenic traits then I'll let you think that.

124.183.114.44 (talk) 09:17, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The only 'battle' that you had to fight to get those stats into Indigenous Australians - and it certainly looked like a big battle - was against your own inability to comprehend Wikipedia's sourcing requirements. Your initial edits there were reverted because they weren't supported by sources; some misrepresented the source's figures, and IIRC others made interpretations that weren't contained in the source. Your later edit was accepted because it made more modest claims, supported by a cited source, and without personal interpretations. --GenericBob (talk) 16:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Disputed 2004 Newspoll
The wikipedians who contributed to the article on the Australian flag didn't go on with irrational nonsense when the 2004 Newspoll was cited at the end of that article.

Australia Day has overwhemling majority support. Get over it.

124.183.114.44 (talk) 09:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Reasons have been given for concerns about the poll. Discuss those reasons please, rather than describing them as "irrational nonsense". That's not helpful to either the article or your case.


 * And please stop adding new sections in the ad hoc way you are. The convention is to add new material at the end so that it can be followed chronologically. HiLo48 (talk) 09:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Get over it.

If it showed 79% support for change you would proffer no spurious reasons for its omission I bet.

When that same poll was added to the wikipedia article on the Australian flag none of those editors carried on as stupid.

The radical aboriginal rights activists might just have to accept defeat.

124.183.114.44 (talk) 12:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems the newspoll results have been included in a form that can't be argued with.


 * Victory!, victory!, victory!


 * VICTORY!


 * 124.183.114.44 (talk) 01:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Please act in a little more good faith and with a little more humility. I disagree that the poll results prove anything of the kind you claim, but I withdrew from the discussion for a while to allow others to observe and to make comment. I did this for the sake of Wikipedia, not to give you any kind of victory. I know there's no point trying to persuade you to see things differently, but I simply, humbly and politely record my views here. I personally believe a post like yours above has no place in Wikipedia, even on Talk pages. That's not because I disagree with what you say, but because I disagree very strongly with the way you say it. HiLo48 (talk) 01:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no point trying to pretend the "debate" over Australia Day is anything other than a fringe discussion.


 * I'm independently wealthy. Would you like me to sponsor another Newspoll on Australia Day? Yes or no. I could arrange it today.


 * The wikipedians on the Australia Flag page didn't go on stupid when I added the results to that page.


 * 124.183.114.44 (talk) 05:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Please read this carefully. I've tried to say it before. Calling other contributors' behaviour stupid is not acceptable here. Nor is it constructive in any discussion.


 * The paragraph on the Newspoll in the Australian Flag page is very similar to the one now in this article. That's probably why is hasn't attracted criticism. It contains no subjective conclusions. That was my concern with your original wording here. As well as presenting the poll results, you drew the conclusion about it being a fringe discussion. That bit's your personal opinion, an interpretation, not a concrete fact, and bound to attract criticism. The Wikipedia approach is to present facts and let readers draw their own conclusions, such as whether the debate is fringe or not, or whether the poll was a reasonable one. HiLo48 (talk) 06:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but none other than Geoffrey Blainey told me it is a fringe discussion. He'd know better than you or I.

124.183.114.44 (talk) 06:22, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Just cause a motely collection of fringe dwelling academics and journalists and the odd member of the radical faction of the ALP or greens suggests moving the date, that dosen't mean it's a live issue that engages Joe Average from Mt Druitt.


 * A "minority preoccupation" and the current leader of the opposition would call it.


 * The poll results certainly attest to it.


 * 124.183.114.44 (talk) 13:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Please register an account if you wish to discuss this, for reasons already covered surrounding anon IP edits. I would further ask that debates are not the place of wikipedia, but rather the presentation of sourced information in a neutral manner. If you dispute that the article is accurate or netural, then a reasonable discussion should follow about how to proceed. We certainly do not need to bring seemingly childish attitudes into this (I am specifically refrencing "victory! victory! victory!). Rotovia (talk) 10:15, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The overwhelming support for Australia Day
I have added this to the article:

"It remains a fringe discussion with polls showing a significant majority of Australians support January 26th celebrations. According to a 2004 NEWSPOLL that asked, "Do you think that Australia's national day should continue to be celebrated on the 26th of January, or should it be moved to a day that is not associated with European settlement?", 79 per cent favoured no change, 15 per cent favoured change and 6 per cent were uncommitted." Source: http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/cgi-lib.5764.1.0102australia_day.pdf

The intermarrige rate for Australian Aborigines is 69% and it is estimated that there are only between 30,000-50,000 full bloods left in Australia.

This could be taken to mean that most modern aborigines are quite happy with the demographic changes that have taken place since British settlement.

124.183.252.83 (talk) 04:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I've removed the change. The word "fringe" makes it clearly a POV addition. Your views on Aboriginal people, particularly using the term "full bloods" (archaic, and not in common use), shows an ignorance of that part of Australian society. What is the real purpose of your change? HiLo48 (talk) 06:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd argue that "fringe discussion" is probably an appropriate term. In the grand scheme of things, it's one of the less important discussions. It's not a central issue and only seems to appear in the lead-up to and around Australia Day. Even then, nobody really seems to take it seriously, except those involved in the discussion. I'm not sure what the intermarriage rate for Aborigines has to do with anything though. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This is a very complex issue that's not going to be easily resolved with anything like a popular opinion poll from a media outlet. If the population were to be asked other questions surrounding those celebrations I would predict some less than helpful results. I suspect a significant proportion wouldn't know exactly what is being commemorated anyway, despite the hint in the initial question. Knowledge of the Aboriginal situation is also sadly very thin on the ground among a lot of Australians. That is borne out by the comments from our IP above which bear a startling resemblance to some of the arguments used at the time to justify the stolen generations. Most Australians would never have seriously contemplated the issues involved in the day being a sensitive one for Aboriginal people. When we have proper referendums in Australia, serious attempts are made to educate voters about the various issues involved. Obviously that wasn't the case here. I'm very uncomfortable with the results of such a shallow poll being placed in the article, clearly with the intent of suggesting that the case for a change in the day has little merit. The adjective fringe, in particular, demonstrates the loaded nature of the proposed addition. A non-POV contribution would not require such an adjective. HiLo48 (talk) 09:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As the saying goes, "Internet polls aren't worth the paper they're written on". --AussieLegend (talk) 10:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you will find Newspoll is a telephone poll, and a source worth quoting. The wikipedia article on the Australian flag cites a Newspoll. I've put the basic poll numbers back in there while we debate if it is in fact a fringe discussion. As it is referenced no one should have a problem with:

"Scientifically conducted opinion polls show a significant majority of Australians support January 26th celebrations. According to a 2004 NEWSPOLL that asked, "Do you think that Australia's national day should continue to be celebrated on the 26th of January, or should it be moved to a day that is not associated with European settlement?", 79 per cent favoured no change, 15 per cent favoured change and 6 per cent were uncommitted."

Feel free to make the passage more eloquent if you can.

I personally think it is getting a bit tired radical aboriginal rights activists marking January 26th as Invasion Day, and calling for the national holiday to be moved to another date. Next year on the 222nd anniversary of the foundation of Australia and British settlement it is an approprite time for decendants of the original inhabitants can look back on the arrival of the First Fleet as an important day in understanding who they are as a contemporary people.

According to the wikipedia article on Indigenous Australians, and the 2001 census, 69% of unions involving an aborigine involved a non aborigine (the equivalent figure for blacks in the US is <2%). Current estimates place the number of full bloods at maybe no more than 30,000 (the last accurate census was in 1961 when the figure was 37,000). Because that other civilisation came here for better, worse or indifferent in less than 200 years there was a modern western nation established here as a result of this fact, which three quarters of the aboriginal population enjoys by living an urban lifestyle alongside their fellow Australians in towns and cities.

The future for aboriginal people lies not in statements of separateness but as an ethnic minority with equal citizenship subject to one law as part of a united Australian Federation.

These are all reasons that I think it is a fringe discussion, besides the fact as has been said the debate such as it has been does not reasonate with Australians, and particpation in Australia Day has kept on increasing since 1988 regardless.

124.183.252.83 (talk) 13:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry. I know we're asked to show good faith here, but your ignorance and bigotry on Aboriginal matters destroys much of your credibility. The number of full blood aboriginal people and their marriage plans is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's also quite offensive. The belief that full blooded aborigines were dying out was part of the official government justification for removing half caste (another archaic term) children from their parents over several generations. One can hardly argue that it was a successful approach. That it seems to be your main justification for adding this poll to the article bothers me. That you still even use the term full blood is very sad. And what blacks in the USA have to do with this article is beyond me.


 * Why say polls (multiple) when you cite only one? You added the word scientific. How scientific? Why ignore the other points I made about the ignorance of the surveyed population? Perhaps you don't see it because you don't know the reality of Aboriginal matters yourself. Can you find a poll asking people what Australia Day commemorates? (with no hints)


 * Your obvious political agenda is on full display in the also irrelevant sentence "The future for aboriginal people lies not in statements of separateness but as an ethnic minority with equal citizenship subject to one law as part of a united Australian Federation."


 * Why revert my revert with no obvious consensus in this discussion. I'm not at all happy with your attitude of using this article to forward an ignorance based political cause. I should remove your addition again, but I don't want a revert war and unlike you will await, pay attention to, and respond to ALL the comments of others. HiLo48 (talk) 18:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Further thought has made me realise what could be the reason you mentioned blacks in the US. I couldn't see one before but, sadly, it must be skin colour. There's no other possible connection that I can think of.


 * Any valid comparison with the USA would be with native Americans. They don't have the same issue because America's national day commemorates independence from a foreign power, almost exactly the opposite of what Australia's national day commemorates when looked at from an Aboriginal perspective.


 * Furthermore, and back to the topic, the poll you have added was taken over five years ago, back in the days of the Howard government, one that many would argue (I certainly would) used racist policies to attract voters and has now been voted out. Since then the nation has moved on. It has apologised to the Aboriginal people over the stolen generations. It's now very different times. I humbly submit that, based on many factors, some outlined above, your poll does not belong in the article today. HiLo48 (talk) 20:13, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

15% for. 79% against. That sounds about right. Support might even be higher now the baby boomers are dying off. Australia Day is GROWING year by year.

Back in the days of the Howard government? Back in the days of the Keating government, Australia Day was made a unified public holiday in all states for the first time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.252.83 (talk) 00:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

When that same Newspoll was added to the wikipedia article on the Australia flag those wikipedians didn't carry on like this.

Those assimlation stats along with the fact only 20% of eligibles voted in ATSIC elections back in the days of separate elected representation suggests the artificial nature of "colective identity" and the aboriginal separatist agenda.

Aborigines have dysgenic traits, which are those that deteriorate with intermarriage. The Daily Telegraph published an article this year on the high intermarriage rate and the "potential loss of aboriginal bloodlines".

124.183.252.83 (talk) 00:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow!


 * I really don't think we're having a discussion here.
 * HiLo48 (talk) 04:54, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed:
 * In 2004 a scientifically conducted Newspoll that asked, "Do you think that Australia's national day should continue to be celebrated on the 26th of January, or should it be moved to a day that is not associated with European settlement?", showed a significant majority of Australians support Australia Day celebrations with 79 percent for no change, 15 per cent for change and 6 per cent uncommitted.

From the article for further discussion. I have three concerns. The first is that the source doesn't particularly support "scientifically" - it may be, but there's nothing there to show this, and it would be better left out. The second is that it did not show that a significant majority of Australians support Australia Day, but that a significant majority of those polled do. Given that only 1200 were polled, it isn't really enough to draw major conclusions about Australia as a whole, although the random selection of participants is a good plus. I'm also generally concerned about the use of data from polls, as there are a lot of issues around them. If it is to be used I think it would be better as an aside, rather than given the prominence that it has been, but that's just me. :) Others may see things differently. - Bilby (talk) 09:28, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Bilby - have you noticed our IP's later contributions further up the article? I have responded to some of it, but this discussion has become very messy. HiLo48 (talk) 09:48, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I noticed. :) The discussion of "full blooded" seems completely irrelevant and has no real bearing here, so it seems better to ignore it. My main concern is whether or not a Newspoll with a sample of 1200 can be taken to be sufficiently significant - I'm leaning towards it warranting a mention, but I continue to have doubts, especially given the age. - Bilby (talk) 11:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm getting drunk tonight to celebrate the inclusion of the Newspoll.

It's like when I won the right to include aboriginal assimilation stats in the article on indigenous australians.

What a beautiful set of numbers as Paul Keating would say.

124.183.114.44 (talk) 08:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The debate
Can't we compact the space taken up by the "debate" over Australia Day in this article?

It would be different if their was widespread support for change and major parties where committed to moving it to another date with the support of the Australian people.

Premierstate (talk) 08:48, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "...if their was widespread support for change and major parties were committed to moving it to another date with the support of the Australian people", there would be no debate.


 * I agree that those parts of the article are messy. However, it is a very real issue to those for whom the current date is the most hurtful, and to others who try to see it from their perspective. I'd like to tidy it up. I'm happy to try over the next little while. HiLo48 (talk) 08:56, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I really don't care about the rights and wrongs of Australia Day anymore. As a fan of the written word I just see a messy article. Duplication.

Let's be BOLD and see what we can do.

I say we just mention the occasional suggestions the date be changed at the end of the article. Mention counter demonstrations from 1938 through to 1988 to the present.

Premierstate (talk) 09:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Describing opponents of Australia Day as a "small minority" is a significant concession to these people in itself.


 * I'm sure they will be quite grateful.


 * Premierstate (talk) 09:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You're showing a clear POV in those recent edits, and even more bigotry in these posts here. Please stop it and give others some time and space to make comment. I know it's a difficult subject for a lot of Australians. My view is clearly different from yours, and it's not good Wikipedia behaviour to just shove yours down other peoples throats. I certainly won't do it as you have. Please give the issue some time. HiLo48 (talk) 09:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I just think the "debate" occupies too many inches of this article for what it is.

Most people are out there getting stuck into it on Australia Day.

It is not truly divsive like, say, Orangeman's Day is in Northern Ireland. Go an experiece that on the lower Ormeau Road or Drumcree and you'll see what i mean.

The whole notion of aboriginal collective identity has a certain artificial flavour to it for all the statistical reasons I have aleady pointed out.

Premierstate (talk) 09:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You started a discussion here. All I ask is that you give that discussion time and allow others to comment. You should reverse the edits you have already made (while I was responding to the discussion you started!) and be patient. You should forget about comparing it to something anywhere else in the world. Give me time and I may be able to explain why, if you're willing to pay attention. It's not so important it must be changed right now. HiLo48 (talk) 09:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree that it's not truly divisive - when you have the Australian of the Year in 2009 calling for the date to be changed, then you have a significant issue, at least in terms of the event. And if we accept the poll that you wanted added, to have 15% of the population agreeing that it should be moved is a significant proportion of the population. A minority, true, but certainly not a fringe view. I'd agree that we're not talking about an issue as significant as Orangeman's Day, but it warrants some decent space in the article. That said, it isn't as well written as it might be, but the solution is not to drop a significant issue from the lede, nor to downplay the issue. - Bilby (talk) 11:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

You can accept the poll gives one the general idea. Nothing significant has happened on the Australia Day front since 2004.

I submit that it is safe to say that when research shows Australians are 5:1 in favor of something then there is only a small minority against.

No major political grouping has as its objective securing a new date for Australia Day with the support of the Australian people.

Australia Day can go past from year to year and not a murmur is heard from even the usual suspects or even a staged burning of the Australian National Flag.

No vacant alternative date has generated anything like the groundswell of public opinion required to swap the day off or been accorded anywhere near the same staus, as Kevin Rudd will tell you if you write to him suggesting the date of Australia Day be reviewed.

And I know I'll get howled down here, but despite the false impression that has been created that there is such a thing as a "collective aboriginal indentity," the fact 80% of eligible voters did not avail themselves of seperate elected representations and stayed away from ATSIC elections during the self determination era suggests there is not. Modern urban aborigines (and that's 75% of them) continue to signal their approval of the demographic changes since 1788 by "marrying out" in large numbers. In 1986 the census reported that 46% of unions involving an aborigine involved a non aborigine. By the 2001 census the figure was 69%. The equivalent figure for black people in the US is < 2%.

I'm not saying we don't mention the counter demonstrations. But be sparing with the words. Just cover it once. Like newspapers cover it in a single article, if that. A compendious mention at the end.

I wonder for how many Australia "Invasion Day" actually comes into their frame on January 26th? Now the baby boomers - those who came of age around the time of the Vietnam War and where so traumatised by it - are DYING OFF I bet it's less and less and less.

58.164.10.23 (talk) 11:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * While those arguing to conceal the divisiveness of the day post such irrelevant and uninformed material here, we can make little progress. A genetic point. Black Americans are more closely related to Australians of European ancestry than to Australian Aboriginal people. (I know that's irrelevant too, but i couldn't help myself.) Just pause, think and learn a bit here please folks. Patience helps a lot in these discussions. HiLo48 (talk) 12:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

It's relevant.

You do hear a lot of the increasing number of aborigines of mixed descent say things like "I am half for Australia Day".

I can't say one doesn't and nor can you.

58.164.10.23 (talk) 13:53, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Notable Australians for/against Australia Day
This might be an interesting addition.

Bob Carr for one was radically in favour of January 26th.

He thought the debate was getting a bit tired.

58.164.10.23 (talk) 12:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Controversy: Arguments for/against Australia Day
This might be another section. Who has ever seen a high school debate on Australia Day?

Isn't it usual to look at both sides of an argument?

I also don't see anywhere in the article the view expressed in some parts of the Australian Federation that January 26th is "New South Wales' Day".

Of that it is at a time of the year where it can't be appreciated fully. Or why have one single National Day?

We'd have to pay for this space by being more efficient about what we already have to say about the radical aboriginal line on Australia Day.

I've got a good argument in favour of Australia Day: After two centuries of existance hasn't it earned its permanent place on the calendar? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.10.23 (talk) 13:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

58.164.10.23 (talk) 13:08, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Main image
I've changed the main image back to one showing the celebrations, rather than the foundation of Australia, although I've used a different picture than what was there before. I think the new picture better shows the crowds at the events, which is useful, while still having two clearly identifiable Australian icons in the Sydney Opera House and a larger flag. While the foundation painting was a nice one, it seems to me that the article is about Australia Day as an event, so it made more sense to display an image showing the event itself, rather than the event it commemorates. - Bilby (talk) 13:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Federation Pavilion
I've substituted a image of Federation for the image of the concert.

One aboriginal related image is plenty.

Premierstate (talk) 04:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Aboriginal sovereinty day declared
Is this really significant enough to mention? Some of the people mentioned in that piece are from this motely collection of political fringe dwellers called the aboriginal provisional goverment. 1000 members strong.

I only heard about "sovereinty day" from this wikipedia article.

If the proponents want to create more awareness they can take out paid avertising and create their own opportunities.

Premierstate (talk) 04:41, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, it seems to me that this means that it is serving its purpose of informing readers about aspects of the debate. Learning about an issue by reading about it in Wikipedia is likely to be a plus. - Bilby (talk) 05:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but I wanted to include Rodney Lidell's "Cape York: The Savage Frontier" as a source on the Indigenous Australians article and I was lectured to about "tiny minority views".

Aboriginal sovereinty day. It's just a passing proposal of radical rights activists.

124.176.119.43 (talk) 07:28, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Current state of the article
It's much better now. Much more Union Jacks and images of colony.

Only discussion of the aboriginal issue is about 2 inches too long don't you think?

You only really need to say things once.

124.176.119.43 (talk) 07:28, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * So, are you saying it now better matches your point of view on this subject?

HiLo48 (talk) 10:22, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, the issue of the date is not just an "aboriginal issue". I've heard people object that the 26th of January is a Sydney-centric date, when the convict colony of NSW was established. It has no relevance to states such as Victoria, SA and WA. There settlement had nothing to do with Sydney and 26th January. Rather than shrinking the section on objections and alternatives, I think there is a lot more to be said about the campaign for a non-divisive date. Much better for a unified nation. But that's enough of my POV for now. HiLo48 (talk) 11:45, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that too, but not from the common people. Academics, journalists, politicians. People from that strata are the ones suggesting that.

There have been attempts to involve the common people in the debate and the article will make that clear soon. The common people are the ones responsible for keeping Australia Day alive from century to century,

I've refered the matter for mediation.

124.183.245.186 (talk) 11:51, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason Australia Day will remain is that for better, worse or indifferent because that other civlisation came here in less than 200 years there was a modern, western nation established here because of that fact which spread to the north, south, east, west.


 * 124.183.245.186 (talk) 11:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * With respect, I don't think you'll find any support for referring to the general Australian populace as the "common people" - it is a loaded term, not typically used, and very much POV. - Bilby (talk) 13:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

We have to find another way of saying, then, that the great silent majority aren't chattering about it (the date of Australia Day).

NOT AT ALL.

124.183.245.186 (talk) 13:51, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * We did have a different way of referring to them - we referred to them as Australians. - Bilby (talk) 13:53, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The people who would like to see the date changed are also Australians. I also don't understand why it's a problem to bring an issue to the attention of the common people or silent majority. Surely only someone frightened that the common folk can't be trusted to make sensible decisions would be want them to remain uninformed. HiLo48 (talk) 21:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * An IP address in the range routinely used by blocked User:Premier, presenting the same unsourced arguments and POV as that editor has consistently done on this and related talk pages for at least four years, including a very similar discussion about "Invasion Day" pursued by Premier in early 2005. Tagged IP as suspected sockpuppet. Also, given no one agrees with the "common people" insert, archiving this conversation as having reached a natural end. Euryalus (talk) 22:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Article introduction: Common people amendment
I have reworked this passage to state the fact that there have been efforts made to involve the common people in the debate over the occasional suggestions by political and community leaders and radical aboriginal rights activists that the January 26th public holiday be ended.

I'll go to mediation and arbritration to keep the term "common people" in because it is the best descriptor.

And I submit that the last paragraph of the introduction could be incorporated into the section on "Controversy" to avoid unneccesary duplication and so as to not give "Invasion Day" a credibility and standing it does not enjoy.

124.176.119.43 (talk) 08:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Compromise
What about "attempts have been made to engage the broader general public in the debate have been made".

Surely we don't want to convey the erroneous impression that ordinary everyday people are debating the date of Australia Day around the BBQ on 26 January?

124.183.245.186 (talk) 01:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Engaging the broader general public in a debate on a public policy issue would be the normal and ethical thing to do in a democracy. No need to mention it. HiLo48 (talk) 01:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but let's acknowledge in the article that the broader general public have yet to be engaged in the debate, which hitherto has taken place amongst certain political and community leaders and radical aboriginal rights activists.

What would be the problem with acknowledging this fact?

I've referred the matter to mediation anyway.

124.183.245.186 (talk) 04:01, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem with what you want to do is that it serves absolutely no purpose. As I said above, informing the broader general public of the issues in a debate on a public policy issue would be the normal and ethical thing to do in a democracy. That's what Wikipedia is for. Education. We do it for referendums. Might as well do our best to educate here too. HiLo48 (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The point it's a minority preoccupation in every sense of that term.

There have been calls for a national debate. Mick Dodson called for one if you read that article closely enough.

Changing the date of Australia Day: a theoretical political concept.

That's all.

124.183.245.186 (talk) 07:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Social change almost always happens through minorities raising issues. It's a normal process in a healthy democracy. No need for the detail you're proposing. HiLo48 (talk) 07:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

It's just plain tired now. And old hat.

It's failed to ignite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.245.186 (talk) 07:21, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Not a contentious issue for the people at large.


 * They used to say socialism was inevitable.


 * 124.183.245.186 (talk) 07:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately we just have to make Australia Day work.

The people decide their culture.

The common people.

124.183.245.186 (talk) 07:36, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Consensus requires at least one or two more Wikipedians to comment on your proposed changes, and basically agree to them. I think your current edit is probably OK, but given that you were directed to gain consensus, and chose to ignore that and simply keep editing the article, I think it's important that we now follow the correct process.


 * And please stop posting those irrelevant "aboriginal intermarriage rate" comments. HiLo48 (talk) 07:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I wonder how many public holidays with a history going back two centuries have been just suddenly discontinued one year?

Radical aboriginal rights activists are demanding people.

124.183.245.186 (talk) 07:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Article and talk page edits, IP range and the edit summary here offer strong evidence the anon IP is currently being used by User:Premier. Blocked for a couple of days for attempted block evasion. Euryalus (talk) 12:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

NPOV Resolution

 * 1. Given we are able to establish "Australia Day" is the legal title for the holiday, I would suggest this title and other previous official titles be mentioned in the introduction.
 * 2. It is also appropriate to mention the dispute over the holiday in the introduction as it is a significant dispute amoung Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians, academics, and community groups.
 * 3. "Invasion Day" protests and the dispute are mentioned in the article and provide and balanced account of the dispute
 * 4. "Invasion Day" should redirect to this page, to assist those seeking information on the subject

I would therefore propose that this article represents the factual official title, the factual dispute over the cultural sensitivity and appropriateness of theholiday, and current public trends; thus NPOV is satisfied and te tag should be removed. Rotovia (talk) 08:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Supporters of Constitutional Monarchy have gotten about 90% of what they wanted so it's all good.


 * Federation1901 (talk) 05:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

ANA Day
Just to add to the complexity of the issue of the name of the day, I have recalled from my youth (quite a while ago) that the day used be known in some quarters as ANA Day. This evolved from the fact that celebrating nationhood on the 26th January had been heavily promoted by the Australian Natives' Association (hence ANA), particularly in Victoria. I've found a couple of very reputable references on this....

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/australia-day-in-question/2008/01/25/1201157665401.html?page=2

http://www.australiaday.com.au/studentresources/history.aspx

I plan to put together some words for the article on this aspect of the name. It should be less controversial than Invasion Day. ;-)

Anyone have any thoughts or concerns about this?

HiLo48 (talk) 04:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I've been pulling something similar togeather in relation to the 1888 celebrations and the ANA's push to get a national day established. My main delay has been with the difficulties of getting Inglis' paper - I generally have a lot of time of Inglis, and his paper seems significant, but is a tad tricky to grab. If you want to add what you have I'd have no objections at all. :) - Bilby (talk) 04:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)