Talk:Australian Cattle Dog/GA1

"Not an agressive dog"? I lived in Australia for 55years. I have seen dogs of all shapes and sizes. I have never seen any dog as frightening as a Blue Heeler. True, they can be docile, but only in the presence of people that they know. One night, I returned to the home of my friend with him, to find a would-be burglar bailed up in the corner of his garden by his 2 blue dogs, "Ned" and "Kelly" ( the name of a famous outlaw). The man was in tears, shaking with fear, and had soiled himself in fright. Historygypsy (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Right, I am reading through now and am making straightforward changes as I go. Please revert any where I inadvertently change the meaning. Queries below. Also, don't automatically do what I suggest - if you think otherwise please say so and we can discuss. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Looks not too bad on first read though - needs a bunch of minor and highly tedious formatting tweaks which I will do later on.


 * this is what I think you meant to do here - it took me a while to learn the refname tag as well.


 * Many thanks - I looked everywhere for info on the refname tag, I couldn't work out what to do with different page numbers. Marj (talk) 03:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What I do is place books used in a separate subsection below the inline refs - see coffee which is a page I am working on. Others have different ways of doing this. I also find the cite templates useful for autoformatting and adding extra information (the cite tag at the top right of the edit screen when you click open a page for editing. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow! I didn't know that there was so much to know about coffee. Thanks for pointing out the cite templates - lots to take in at once. Marj (talk) 01:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The cite templates are good, as they autoformat bold/italics etc. here is how it looks. Got caught up in some RL stuff, but back later. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

More notes - the text is a little repetitive - a challenge is to see if one can remove some of the 'Australian Cattle Dog' s - have a look at User:Tony1/How to improve your writing - I find this sort of stuff fascinating. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Make sure there is as little jumping between singular and plural dog(s) as possible in a given section of text. I changed some to all plural as they flowed better plural than singular.
 * I was reluctant to remove what others had written, but will do an edit to make it flow a little better, and remove some inconsistencies/repetitions. Wiki referencing conventions are a little different from what I am used to but I think I'm getting the hang of it.Marj (talk) 00:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Make sure all refs go at the end of sentences or after a comma.
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't feel afraid to edit what has gone before - one of the tenets here is that no-one owns an article. I have had to remove unsourced material from articles I have worked on before. If I find something which sounds plausible andreally adds to knowledge but I really can't find a source, I'll often place it on the talk page or comment it out so it is invisible for easy retrieval later in case sourcing turns up. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Among the most popular activities for Australian Cattle Dogs is dog agility. - agility a sport Do you mean agility trial?
 * I didn't write this but a trial is a competition, dogs can do agility without doing an agility trial. Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * okay. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Australian Cattle Dogs have been successful in a range of dog sports including weight pulling...etc. - need to format the references here. I'd do it myself now but it is nearly 1am and I am knackered and need to sleep. My time is limited over the next few days. There are some other references like this too.
 * Unclear what 'format' is required. These links work like the wikilinks to give additional information, they are not references as such - but show cattle dogs doing the activity. They can be changed to wikilinks if you prefer. Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Changed them to wikilinks to general information on the activity, though I do think the external links to cattle dogs doing the activity provided more information. Marj (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The external links can be used as inline references (using the cite format) rather than a plain link - I should have clarified that. sorry. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The  Characteristics section needs some references for material within it - is it Bently or Bentley as two spellings are seen.
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know where the writer got this info, but it could all be referenced to the Australian Breed standard. Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't find any 'authoritative' reference for the information on Tom Bentley's Dog, yet. Marj (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "Is better to embellish stroke age wit info on strokes in dogs and ref it there" Not sure how to interpret this. The wiki entry on strokes is about people only, no reference to dogs - the link I gave shows that dogs do have strokes (which has only recently been recognised) Marj (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I removed the bit about dogs dying of strokes - hard to know how common it is with a study of only 11 dogs.Marj (talk) 06:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This often happens on wikipedia - you link article A to article B...and realise article B needs work. Best thing is to put a subsection in hte stroke page on stroke in dogs. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * ACD is an accepted name for the breed. I changed it in response to your comment that the breed name was repeated too often - I used 'they' where it made sense and abbreviated some to ACD Marj (talk) 00:43, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, then I'd suggest noting the abbreviation somewhere up the top of the article near where the name is discussed (even though it is obvious :)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Many thanks, Casliber! Marj (talk) 20:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Casliber, can you use the ref name=... tag with the Cite book template? Cheers Marj (talk) 07:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * absolutely (I'd be in real trouble if it didn't work...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll look up the site and see what information it provides. Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * NB - for this site to be considered a Reliable Source, one would best find some notability or affiliation of the website author. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It's Katherine Beutow's site - I've added that to the reference. She also has info on the Bentley Mark (above) Marj (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Great! Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Another minefield to avoid is Original research - I mention this the section:
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure what this means: is it my original Research (non-existent) or Noreen Clark's original research that is not allowed? All of this comes from Clark's detailed research based on primary documents. Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * In 1920 there was one motor vehicle for every 55 people in Australia.[1], so before this most dogs of any breed would have been accustomed to horses. - i.e. the second clause is not mentioned in the car link, but is it mentioned in the next ref further down the page? One has to be careful linking fact A and fact B from two separate refs but combining them in a way not in the original refs.

Also, is there a ref for the material above this sentence as it reads a little conjectural. That is, the material discussing the writings of Kaleski in the para beginning Kaleski's Standard was taken up by... Casliber (talk · contribs)
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * All of this material is a precis of Clark, though she did not give specifics on car ownership saying simply that given how few cars there were, all dogs would have been accustomed to horses. Does every sentence need a reference? Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh okay, that's fine. I wasn't clear on who was analysing Kaleski. In which case it is good to write it as "Noreen Clark has noted that..." to preface that this is one wirter's view on another. With fact A and fact B, the car bit is good as long as left as a separate sentence. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:23, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

PS: Are there no famous aussies who have them as pets?? hmmm.....Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Marj (talk) 02:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * There are no Australian books that mention famous aussies having a cattle dog as a pet, it would be unremarkable I guess, and few overseas publications mention Australia at all. I could list a dozen myself, but that's not much good. Marj (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I was thinking of other reliable sources such as the Sydney Morning Herald, Age or Burkes Backyard or Better Homes and Gardens something which might have had celebrities on them...I did try searching briefly last night.Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:19, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I did find this in the herald "An RSPCA inspector investigating a cattle dog that reportedly had no food, no shelter and had been tied to the same spot for months found the deprived pooch was actually a concrete statue." I'll continue to search. The local ACD society has a dispute with Don Burke so I won't pursue him but the pet advice section of BHG etc might be productive. Marj (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Is it documented anywhere about a controversial issue...or not notable? Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It arose out of his use of "Dumpage Rates" stats as an indicator of dog breeds to avoid. ACDs were #2 on the list after Maltese. Then when he did a profile on the breed, and he used a breeder outside the assn. Not sure it made the media, though I could check Kennel Club Publications - I was getting a new dog at the time and it was a hot topic. Marj (talk) 23:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting - a high dumping rate would be good to cite and discuss certainly. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Dumpage rates have to be linked to ownership levels and to IDing in pounds - bit of research to do but it would be interesting. Marj (talk) 23:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Scott Cam's Lizzie and Rosie on Backyard Blitz - I'll look for a reference Marj (talk) 23:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Simmone Jade Mackinnon http://www.dogslife.com.au/dogs_life_articles?cid=9445&pid=2110323 Marj (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2010 (UTC) Ken Done and Indianna (Will note these here for later) Marj (talk) 00:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * D'oh! (slaps palm of hand on forehead), Scottie Cam's dog was an obvious one.. :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I've added information on the three's cattle dogs to their wp pages, with references, and provided a link. Marj (talk) 02:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

1. Well written?:
 * Prose quality:
 * Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:
 * References to sources:
 * Citations to reliable sources, where required:
 * No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:
 * Major aspects:
 * Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:
 * Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?
 * No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:
 * Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * Images need WP:ALT text.

Overall:
 * Pass or Fail: - the alt text is pretty straightforward --> see Alternative text for images for details on how to do this. I think this has potential to be a Featured Article, and a few more eyes on it by other editors would be helpful. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)