Talk:Australian Natives' Association

List of Chief Presidents
Hi. I must say the table of chief presidents you created is quite impressive. As the table now takes up the overwhelming majority of the article though, do you think it might be better to split it to its own list? I'm thinking List of Chief Presidents of the Australian Natives' Association (you could probably even nominate it to be a featured list). Even if it didn't take up the majority of the article I'm thinking the sheer size of the table warrants its own article as in my opinion having it in the middle of this one makes it a bit unwieldy. Damien Linnane (talk) 05:44, 5 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi! Thanks for the feedback.  Yes I agree.  I was surprised at how it overwelms to page.  I was wondering if splitting the information would be appropriate.
 * There is more information to put on the Australian Natives' Association also besed on my research there are a number of inaccuricies in the current page that need addressing.
 * Thanks again. Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 08:49, 5 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Rob. I've gone ahead and split the page myself. Keep up the good work improving both pages. :) Damien Linnane (talk) 10:36, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

(talk)Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 12:24, 5 April 2021 (UTC)  Thanks very much for doing this. Robert (Bic) Bicknell

Member list
I have removed the list of about 20 members. There was no indication of why those people were included, since the article said there were up to 95,000 members at one time, and 17,000 in 1900. Not even all of the past presidents with Wikipedia articles were in the list. --Scott Davis Talk 00:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Good call. The list is a carry over from early edits by others.  It listed some notable members in the community, like Prime Ministers and other of note.  It was far from complete and lacked clarity of purpose. Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 03:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Membership
I dispute the assertion that Aboriginal Australians could not be members of the ANA as founded, in fact some were. Many large organisations have few Aboriginal members without it being policy. Doug butler (talk) 06:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC) Doug butler (talk) 06:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The second sentence of the article explicitly says "It was founded by and for the benefit of native-born white Australians and membership was restricted exclusively to that group". That seems to contradict your claim. It's sourced to a book. I don't have the book. Do you? Or do you have another, contradictory source? HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have checked the reference in that part of the book on Google Books. Helen Irving might be right about the intention at the time however, I have not seen this documented any where else.  It is certainly not claimed in Menadue or in Aveling.
 * I note that at the ANA Constitutional Convention in Melbourne the proposal was to federate all mainland colonies, Tasmania, New Zealand and Fiji. This wasn't a solely white approach to the world.
 * Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 08:51, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the for the reference and I agree.
 * The criteria for being a member of the ANA before about 1960 was:
 * - being Australian born male;
 * - being elected a member by the branch;
 * - paying the subscription.
 * I understand there where also Chinese Members of the ANA.
 * The reference used in the main article https://web.archive.org/web/20230221085839/https://ausnatives.org/on-australian-identity/ is a recent publication 2019 and bears no relation documents produced by the ANA. While the ANA was a supporter of the White Australia policy for immigration and even supported it when most others had changed their view, the ANA and its continuing organisations, Australian Unity and ANA Fraternal views that engage closely with aboriginals and many other cultures.
 * The ACT based organisation Australian Natives Association Inc. that produced the article referred to above is not related the the original ANA.
 * The main body of the ANA article needs much work. At the moment I am concentrating on the Chief Presidents.
 * Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 07:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The expression "white European" was added somewhat after the ref and by a different editor. The Menadue ref was introduced by User:Robert (Bic) Bicknell on 5 April 2021 and here's the diff I haven't chased up the author of the insertions. Doug butler (talk) 08:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * And while the ANA kicked up a stink over the rumored import of one million (!) Russian Jewish refugees after WWII, portraying them a simply racist doesn't hold water — Sir Isaac Isaacs was a member for over 50 years (including a stint as president of the Adelaide branch), and was not the only Jewish member. Doug butler (talk) 12:28, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone is trying to portray them as "simply racist". HiLo48 (talk) 23:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Completely agree . I don't see anyone portraying that argument either, though race is undoubtedly as issue; the image of the 1910 badge alone speaks volumes. That being said, I really don't think pointing out they let at least a couple Jewish members in over the years is a valid counter to accusations of racism either. Racism takes many forms. Anti-semitism is a very real issue, but not all groups that display racism in one form are racist towards Jews by default. Racism to this day is mostly directly towards people who appear visibly different, while many Jewish people are very European looking. Showing evidence of a Chinese or Indigenous member at all, let alone one who did a stint as president, would hold a lot more water for your argument. Damien Linnane (talk) 01:12, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It complex and needs teasing out some more. Reviewing the minutes for the Victorian Natives Association for the first year of existence (1871) there is no mention of race or colour. It is clearly a not-for-profit self help organisation. This changed its name to The Australian Natives Association in 1872.  It rules precluded it from engaging in religious activity an party politics.  It included association members who were also members of various political parties and MP from various parties as will be seen from the listing of Chief Presidents..
 * The association pursued many issues that they thought to be of national importance, reforestation, creation of the navy, federation, the restrictive immigration policy. Local branches also sought to better their local municipalities donating to the local community.
 * I am currently reviewing the ANA page and hope to correct some of the anomalies and change the tone of the article as it currently substantially misrepresents the ANA purpose and achievements. Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 13:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It was 1872. Indigenous people had no rights, and weren't even allowed to walk into pubs or other establishments. Similar attitudes were held towards Chinese and other migrant groups. Keep in mind that minutes wouldn't have needed to explicitly say 'we don't allow Aboriginal members' because it would have been completely unheard of for an organisation to allow Indigenous members at that time. They wouldn't have been allowed in by default to any organisation, and I think it's very safe to say they definitely wouldn't have been allowed into an organisation like this. Damien Linnane (talk) 01:12, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but we digress. We might be able to report there were no Chinese, Aboriginal or Transylvanian members but without reliable sources we can't say there was an exclusion policy. Doug butler (talk) 07:52, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * We HAVE a source. As I said in the second post here, the core claim is sourced to a book. Does anyone have access to that book? HiLo48 (talk) 08:49, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * My university has a copy at one of our campuses. I've put in a request to have the book sent to my campus so I can borrow it. It won't arrive till mid next week though.
 * Also the point of my comment yesterday was that we shouldn't source that race was not an issue just because it wasn't mentioned in the minutes, so it looks like we're in agreement that we can't say there was or wasn't an exclusion policy without reliable sources. Damien Linnane (talk) 09:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You may find the object of the association at its founding to be a good start. See Wikipedia Commons ANA (VNA) 1871 Minute Book.002.jpg for the objects page. There are a series of copies of the first minute book owned by the First President, John Wood Fleming.
 * I also have a digital copy of Aveling's thesis, which I have digitised with her permission, a copy of Menadue's book,  access to a couple of copies of the Rules of the ANA and access to some of the conference papers.  My belief from my research to date is that the ANA was not racist as an organisation.  However some of its members probably, almost certainly were. Speaking to some long standing members of the ANA today, They were proud of the ANA support for aboriginals. eg. construction and support of monuments for Aggie Edwards in Swan Hill and William Barak initially in the main street of  Healesville.  These I can find proof of.  They also spoke of the ANA's support for Harold Blair AM the aboriginal tenor and their support for aboriginal student scholarships.  I have not as yet found references for these later claims.
 * Helen Irvings book "To Constitute a Nation: A Cultural History of Australia's Constitution can be accessed at https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/_/z2PewzjX9I8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PP1 as a preview.
 * While some of what she says is supported by the documents I have seen, some of it if factually incorrect or a glossing over quite complex processes.
 * Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 14:03, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing the preview. Page 124 makes it pretty clear membership was open to White's only, so I've clarified that and sourced that specific page number (though I'm keen to see what else is said about the organisation on pages 125-6 when my copy arrives, as those pages are not available in the preview).
 * I think the modern definition of racism would definitely cover an organisation that doesn't allow people of another race to join. But I understand that the organisation may not have displayed actual malice to Indigenous Australians, that in essence it may have just been an exclusive organisation for people of a similar heritage and probably did offer community support to many groups, including the Indigenous. Judging historical actions by today's standards is always complicated.
 * Anyway, Cambridge University Press is a highly reputable source. If it's alleged part of the source is incorrect, I think we'd need some pretty hard evidence to support that allegation. Damien Linnane (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do agree with that. Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 22:27, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Casting my mind around the claim of whiteness of the ANA, They were probably white, or predominantly white because of the make up of the society within which the association operated. However, 150 years ago, the population was diverse, with Americans including negros and others from around the world as miners,  When ANA branches formed in the mining areas it can be imagined that people of many races may have joined the association.
 * Without deep research of the then membership, it is a bold claim to say the association was white. It may have been, but to say so, proof is needed.
 * It would be most unlikely any aboriginal people joined at this time due to their marginalisation in society, the cost of membership, and for them the irrelevance of membership. Nonetheless, in my discussions the long standing members of the ANA the other day, they said there were some, a few, aboriginal members.  Although I have not been able to find any reference to them, but will keep looking.
 * Robert (Bic) Bicknell (talk) 22:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Just letting everyone know the copy of "To Constitute a Nation" arrived. I digitised all the pages that mention the ANA. If anyone wants a copy just email me and I'll send it to you. Damien Linnane (talk) 08:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)