Talk:Australian Senate

Adjust senate member numbers per Sam McMahon resignation from party
Sam McMahon |announced her resignation from the Country Liberal Party, which ends her association with the coalition, effectively becoming IND. It's not yet known if she'll be joining any other party prior to election. Can someone please help properly adjust the article to reflect this? 119.18.0.9 (talk) 21:17, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Babet and UAP deregistration
Babet has not become an independent. Recognition of party membership is determined by the Senate separately from the party registration system and the fact that the UAP is now unregistered does not make him an independent unless the Senate later recognises him as such. He remains a UAP Senator for the time being because generally the Senate accepts people as members of parties who they say they are members of, eg see Practice here: https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedures/Odgers_Australian_Senate_Practice/Chapter_06 (Likewise the Senate accepts Pocock as an independent although he is the Senator relied upon for registration of the David Pocock party.)  I would edit the sidebar to return him to UAP but I couldn't see how. One of the media reports that said he had become an independent was later edited to correct the error. Therealsleepycat (talk) 12:29, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Fatima Payman's Suspension from Labor
The Sydney Morning Harald Reported as of 2pm AWST that "Senator Payman is suspended from the right to participate in federal parliamentary Labor Party caucus meetings and processes." In terms of the composition of the Senate does this mean she is technically an Independent Labour member? If not, is she still considered to be a Labor member if she is not invited to the Labor Party Caucus? i2n 2z  07:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We should defer to how Payman describes herself and how she is described in official sources. In terms of precedent, George Georges was suspended from the ALP caucus in early 1986 . More recently I note Tony Smith absented himself from the Liberal partyroom during his tenure as speaker, and I believe earlier speakers have done similar. Typically I think we wait until someone actually leaves/is expelled from a party before changing their label. ITBF (talk) 09:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Independent Labor (Australia) is defined as anyone who's a member of the Labor Party, but doesn't take part of the Labor Party Room Caucus. That is by definition what Senator Payman is. She doesn't have to leave or be expelled from the Party to be Independent Labor, otherwise she'd just be Independent. I'd cite Darren Cheeseman and Will Fowles as two rank-and-file members who were suspended or expelled from Caucus who are both described as Independent Labor. – GlowstoneUnknown   (Talk)  10:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Where does that definition come from? That article was created last year and relies on primary sources. It seems to be an attempt to impose a UK definition on Australia that isn't used in practice. ITBF (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I wrote that page and the intro, was basing it off some readings (including David O’Byrne which was a clear case of being out of the caucus but still a member and described as IndLab)
 * Admittedly I was't as good at adding enough clear sources when I wrote that so happy to add some more sources anyway Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 12:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Possibly a footnote in the infobox would be a good way of dealing with this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ITBF (talk • contribs) 09:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't change anything regarding how we refer to their party affiliation until such time that reliable sources do. TarnishedPathtalk 10:07, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support the very definition of Independent Labor perfectly describes Senator Payman. A full member of the party, excluded from Caucus meetings. Any source detailing her indefinite suspension is sufficient to describe her as Independent Labor. She's independent Labor until she either leaves the party or is included in the Caucus again. – GlowstoneUnknown   (Talk)  10:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose All reliable sources as of 10pm AEST on 1 July 2024 continue to call her a "Labor senator", it's jumping the gun Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 11:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ABC: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-01/fatima-payman-banished-rebuked-some-support/104042540
 * Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jul/01/fatima-payman-suspension-palestine-anthony-albanese
 * Nine: https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-news-live-labor-senator-suspended-after-vowing-to-cross-the-floor-again-on-palestine-tax-reform-needed-to-stop-climb-20240701-p5jpzn.html
 * It's all "Labor senator Fatima Payman" Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 12:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * She's a "Labor Senator" because she's still a member of the party, that's why the proposal isn't to change it to "Independent". The definition of "Independent Labor" is simply anyone who's a member of the party, but doesn't participate in the Caucus. That's Fatima, as is supported by your articles. – GlowstoneUnknown   (Talk)  12:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree but it feels like we're in a bit of uncharted territory here, not sure how many members have been suspended from caucus for an indefinite period before
 * Just feels like given reliable sources still saying "Labor senator" (and I understand your reasoning there) all we're gonna do is get into a back and forth
 * Is it worth waiting a bit? Seems her quitting or being expelled isn't out of the question in the coming days so that might end up solving this Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 12:08, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with waiting, I think something dramatic will probably happen soon and we'll get a decisive answer. GraziePrego (talk) 12:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I just feel like ITBF's remark of "wait until she's expelled or leaves before changing anything" is too far in the other direction. Darren Cheeseman, is also only described on his page as "suspended". But I'm okay to wait a little while. – GlowstoneUnknown   (Talk)  12:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If we go say, a fortnight (or less idk) and this limbo situation continues then I'd lean towards supporting using the IndLab label
 * But yeah as @GraziePrego said something might happen very soon Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 12:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * User:GlowstoneUnknown my first remark was "We should defer to how Payman describes herself and how she is described in official sources". We should not be inventing labels for people. ITBF (talk) 12:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)