Talk:Austria v West Germany (1978 FIFA World Cup)

Some personal comments to help You correct wrong words and unfair allegations in Your article
For reason of improvement after having had time for more thorough considerations, this replaces an earlier version that was written some days ago.

(Preliminary remarks to my attempt to correctly translate a few words of the German Wikipedia 'Cordoba 1978' article: I had to search various dictionaries for the word 'Spielverderber' but couldn't decide for either 'spoiler' or 'grinch'. Another possibility offered by one of the dictionaries would have been 'party pooper'. Just a few seconds ago, I also tried to cite sources as Wikipedia wishes, but this attempt failed - I still have to learn how to do so appropriately, as for now I have no choice but to cite them within the text itself)

June 21, 1978, Germany vs. Austria at Cordoba, Argentina.

Wikipedia 'Cordoba 1978' (German version) citation: 'In Deutschland wurde auf die unerwartete Niederlage („Schmach“) mit einer Mischung aus Unglauben, Enttäuschung und Entsetzen reagiert, und nicht zuletzt mit Verbitterung über die Nachbarn, die sich nur als Spielverderber profilieren konnten.' Translation: 'In Germany, the reaction to this unexpected loss ("disgrace") was a mixture of disbelief, disappointment and dismay, and last but not least of bitterness over the neighbours who could only profile themselves as spoilers/grinches.'

It is true that such an attitude was raised almost immediately after the game, in my opinion mostly by sensationalists among German media, such as 'BILD-Zeitung', for instance - if You don't know yet, please read either the German Wikipedia article 'Bild (Zeitung)' or its English Wikipedia version 'Bild' to learn about this mass media newspaper... The cited 'bitterness' always was and still is an unfair and unsportsmanlike attitude, and it should never have been allowed to stand for meanwhile 35 years.

What did they expect? Should we have given away the game, like we unfortunately did four years later, in Gijón? All we got for the 1982 'gift' was well-deserved blame... As for Cordoba: Every child knew that an Austrian success would automatically spoil the German hopes, but we had no choice - we had to play the game under the given conditions. It is unfair to blame a team that simply did what it was supposed to do: Give their best and try to win.

As for us 'neighbours who could only profile ourselves as spoilers/grinches': Our team then didn't need to 'profile' itself anymore at all, since they had already done so earlier - and POSITIVELY, by way of victories against Spain (2-1) and Sweden (1-0), and even by 'honorable losses' (after having performed quite well) against Brazil (1-2) and Italy (0-1). The only real disappointment was a 'heavy' 1-5 loss against the Netherlands (which of course added one more motivation to the last game versus Germany - our team wished to redeem itself, plus, flying home with four consecutive losses certainly wouldn't have left good feelings, either...). Again, insinuating that the Austrians 'could only profile themselves as spoilers/grinches' simply is pure unfairness - it's blaming a team that only did what it was supposed to do.

Wikipedia 'Miracle of Cordoba' (English version) citation: 'German fans were dissatisfied with the performance and attitude of their 1978 team, contrasted with the Austrians, who fought fiercely with their neighbours in a game that had no significance in terms of further progression in the tournament.'

It is true that the OVERALL performance of the German team was far below the expectations they had nursed when entering the tournament as defending World Champions. But in the particular game against the Austrians, they fought as hard and fiercely as our team did - the neutral Argentinian crowd repeatedly and enthusiastically applauded BOTH sides who offered spectacular offensive Football and simply played a great, exciting game. However, this remained totally unnoticed by German (sensationalistic) media who only 'grabbed' what offered spectacular headlines - the 'shame' of having lost the game, and the 'disgrace' to consequently have been eliminated. This already angered me almost immediately after the game. The German Team may have fared poorly during the tournament, but they sure didn't have to be ashamed of their performance against Austria - they only had the bad luck of losing the game. Well, us Austrians know pretty well how it feels to perform well but then to lose nonetheless...

Wikipedia 'Miracle of Cordoba' (English version) citation: 'Finger's often-repeated commentary added insult to injury.'

THIS IS TREMENDOUS INJUSTICE! Edi Finger never insulted anybody, and he UNDISPUTABLY never 'added insult to injury'. I've tried in vain to find an excusable explanation for this outrageous line - I couldn't. It can only have been written by those who accuse us of 'Schadenfreude', more of this later, but here's a preliminary: Assuming or alleging that we keep celebrating this game 'with Schadenfreude' is accusing us of nursing the worst of all possible intentions. Whoever alleges this either has no idea at all of our real reasons, or intentionally refuses to accept them. In short: WHOEVER WROTE THIS HAS THE POOR INTENTIONS, NOT US! This time I'm demanding, not just kindly asking: PLEASE CUT THESE LINES, they are doing us wrong, and they're outrageously hurting our feelings.

The expression 'adding insult to injury' is common in English, but translating it by the letter would almost lead to criminal charges. However, it is synonym of quite a few German expressions which rank from serious charges ('den Wehrlosen auch noch treten') to soft, funny and not injuring humour ('Wer den Schaden hat, hat auch den Spott'). But the essential point is that - as long as there is at least a bit of fairness and goodwill - it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to misunderstand or translate into 'adding insult to injury' what Finger REALLY had said. Therefore such insinuation can only be aimed at the often heard repetitions of Finger's legendary outburst of joy, and then again, it can only be misunderstood as injury or insult if combined with the allegation of us having the worst of all possible intentions.

As always, Finger commented the game in flat Vienna dialect (thus in my mother language, I still live in Vienna). He literally said (or rather yelled) 'I wer narrisch', which, in 'normal' German, translates into the equally common expression 'ich werd verrückt'. In Vienna dialect, but only very rarely, 'i wer narrisch' can also be an outburst of rage. But of course, Finger wasn't furious at all - on the contrary. Mostly, and depending on how the words are used and pronounced in a particular situation, the different meanings of 'i wer narrisch' rank from astonishment via amusement and marvelling to outbursts of joy or delight, and this last one is precisely what Finger 'suffered from' in the moment when Krankl scored the winning goal. The essential point is that 'I WER NARRISCH' ABSOLUTELY NEVER IS INSULTING OR INJURING (not even as an outburst of rage - then it's kind of a last warning, but still neither insult nor injury). As for Finger, it was what it sounded like - an almost euphoric outburst of joy, and, even more funny for those who understand Viennese, he then immediately got caught by his feelings and stumbled a wave of delighted words that probably no one can ever decipher if he isn't perfect in our dialect and our habits.

Wikipedia 'Miracle of Cordoba' (English version) cited: 'Having little contemporary achievement to celebrate, the Austrians keep celebrating the 1978 game with Schadenfreude.'

As I already told: THIS IS THE WORST ALLEGATION, it outrageously hurts my feelings as well as the ones of so far UNANIMOUSLY ALL Austrians to whom I have shown this article. The person who wrote this allegation clearly deserves a 'Red Card' for reason of malicious and unsportsmanlike conduct. Point. No room for discussion, zero tolerance for this person.

In first place, there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with celebrating a fairly achieved success, REGARDLESS OF HOW LONG IT DATES BACK, and also regardless of how big or small it was. Yes, true, we have little or no 'contemporary achievement', which simply means that we didn't have much, if any Football success in recent years. BUT THIS AIN'T THE REASON why we still keep celebrating the Cordoba game, and why we will keep doing so for many years to come.

The Germans still celebrate their meanwhile several World Champion Titles, starting with 1954, and the English still celebrate their 1966 one. Manchester United still celebrate their 1968 European Cup Title, altogether there are millions of such examples of people celebrating small or big success, regardless of how long it dates back. That's perfectly alright, they deserve it and it's fine if they keep celebrating. So: Why shouldn't we? And: Why shouln't we, regardless of how long OUR small or big success dates back???

Besides, us Austrians finished 3rd of the 1954 WC tournament, beating the defending World Champions Uruguay in the game for 3rd place, but in the semi-finals Germany had beaten us heavily. Nonetheless I can't remember anybody who felt hurt whenever the Germans celebrate their 1954 triumph, I even own a 90 minute video documenting this success, and I like to watch this video now and then.

As for undeserved celebrations, the only possibility I can imagine is if we really did so 'with Schadenfreude' (malicious pleasure, as my dictionaries call it), and this is precisely what this person WRONGLY accuses us of. Again: Pure wrongdoing, hurting, 'Red Card'.

From the Austrian point of view, the 1978 game versus Germany combined several minor ones with one huge factor that overwhelmed everything else. By comparison the least important of these was that, by then, us Austrians had grown kind of a 'German-last-minute-goals-trauma' during the app. 10 or 15 years prior to 1978, because Germany had repeatedly beaten us by decisive goals in the final minutes or seconds of games, or even in extra time. Believe me, when Krankl scored what turned out to be the winning goal only app. 3 minutes before the Cordoba game ended, still no Austrian felt comfortable - we were too accustomed to late German goals, and, besides, they even almost tied the game once again in the final seconds, but Abramczyk missed by app. one foot... Having finally gotten rid of, and even turned around this 'trauma' by scoring a late winning goal on our turn for once, added fun to delight.

Next factor: Our team wished to redeem itself, as I have already explained earlier. But the 'biggest of the small' factors was that - as Wikipedia calls it - our team had 'fought fiercely', in short, that it was a great game by BOTH sides, which was enthusiastically applauded even by the neutral Argentinian crowd. Germans often reproach us of having 'fought that fiercely' in a game (Wikipedia citation) 'that had no significance in terms of further progression in the tournament' - but, please, tell me: When else is the time for a team to give its best, if not at World Championships??? Should there ever have been a bit of 'Schadenfreude' in our celebrations (in truth we never even thought about such poor motivations), they would have deserved no better for the nerve to blame our team simply because it had done well even though it couldn't qualify for any final game anymore - while they themselves don't even forgive their own teams if they fare poorly in meaningless so-called 'friendlies' (there are scores of provable examples for this assumption)...

But ONE HUGE factor overwhelmed everything else in 1978. It can be masured in years - 47 - and this one 'glued' almost whole Austria to screens or radios, including myself. Prior to 1978, Austria had last beaten Germany on May 24, 1931, by 6-0 in Berlin (doc.: www.oefb.at/Nationalteam/Statistik, OeFB is the official Austrian Football Association), and there was tremendous desire to finally end this longest winless slump an Austrian team has ever 'suffered through' against no matter which opponent. This desire had grown during the years prior to Cordoba with every time when we once again lost or, at best, tied games against Germany.

Please read Wikipedia's article 'Sports-related curses' (where our 47 years are NOT included - I've tried to add them, but I first have to learn how to do so appropriately, which will probably take some time). Almost certainly, the Boston Red Sox Fans (who had to wait 86 - yes, eighty-six! - years until their 'curse' ended in 2004 - if You can, download ESPN's '30 for 30 - Four Days in October', a documentary of the sensational and spectacular end of this 'curse') and the Chicago Cubs Fans (who, by 2013, are hoping and waiting for already 105 years now, still counting) can understand what Austrians felt by then, whenever we played the Germans prior to 1978: It was hoping and begging that the 'curse' would finally end - but it didn't end when I was 9, it didn't end when I was 14, nor when I was 19, nor when I was 24... These feelings were not just mine - almost everybody in Austria was frustrated by this incredibly long negative series. THE HOPE TO FINALLY END THIS 'CURSE' DOMINATED ALL AUSTRIAN THOUGHTS AND OVERWHELMED EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE MOTIVATION WHENEVER WE PLAYED THE GERMANS, and in Cordoba of course, this desire had grown once again into an unprecedented climax, as it had grown before, every time when we once more failed to end the slump.

I already wrote that Edi Finger never had insult or injury in his mind, but, please, answer the question yourself, as for WHAT HIS VERY FIRST THOUGHTS WERE IN THE MOMENT THAT THE GAME ENDED: (Wikipedia 'Miracle of Cordoba', citation) 'And now it is over! It's over, it's finished it's done, it's over! Germany has been beaten, ladies and gentlemen, for the first time in 47 years, Austria has defeated Germany!'

At the same time, Robert Seeger (then still a young and upcoming sports commentator, meanwhile a 'legend' on his own) was the TV commentator - here's a citation of HIS very first words in the moment that the referee ended the game (written down by myself by watching the original TV broadcasting): 'Und das Spiel ist aus, meine Damen und Herren! Österreich gewinnt zum ersten Mal seit 1931 gegen die Bundesrepublik Deutschland, und ist das ein erfreulicher, grossartiger Abschluss der österreichischen Mannschaft bei dieser Weltmeisterschaft!' (Translation: 'And the game is over, ladies and gentleman! Austria wins for the first time since 1931 against the Federal Republic of Germany, and what an enjoyable, tremendous end this is for the Austrian team at these World Championships!').

What I wish to emphasize: Both commentators (both 'legends' in Austria) first of all thought of these 47 years, of nothing else, and beyond any doubt there simply never was the least intention of cheating, or of insulting the Germans. NEITHER IS THERE 'SCHADENFREUDE' (e.g. malicious pleasure for having eliminated the Germans, or anything similar) WHENEVER WE CELEBRATE THE MEMORY OF THIS GAME.

Altogether,

- our team had done what it was supposed to do, our players had 'fought fiercely' (as You call it),

- they had performed to excellence in a great, exciting game that even was enthusiastically applauded by the neutral Argentinian crowd,

- they had ended the World Championship tournament in a very positive way and had earned the right to fly home with pride (besides, it was the first time in 20 years that Austria could qualify for the final tournament, and no one would ever have expected that they would win their preliminary group - their opponents Brazil, Spain and Sweden were an extremely tough assignment),

- and, most of all, they had taken care of our greatest desire by finally putting an end to 47 winless years.

'Schadenfreude' (= malicious pleasure, or being happy for having eliminated the Germans) never was in our minds. On the contrary, many, if not most Austrians would have preferred to watch the Germans instead of no matter which other team in one of the final games, and these people even regretted the German elimination. The rest remained almost totally indifferent, after all, WE SIMPLY DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE and had to play the game under the given circumstances.

Yes, in terms of our expectations (to which the 'Schadenfreude' of shooting the Germans out of the tournament, never belonged), this game turned out to become one of the finest and most succesful games that our National Team has ever played, and that's why we've celebrated it by then, why we celebrate it ever since, and why we will keep doing so for many years to come.

Allow me to repeat to finally come to an end: There simply is nothing wrong with celebrating, even if a success already dates back many years - the Germans still celebrate 1954, the English 1966, etc., there are I don't know how many of such examples, and I only ask for the equal right to allow us to celebrate OUR big or small victories, regardless of how long they date back, and WITHOUT CONSTANTLY BEING ACCUSED OF POOR INTENTIONS.

Post scriptum: Gijón 1982

Wikipedia 'Miracle of Cordoba' (English version) citation: 'At the 1982 FIFA World Cup, Germans and Austrians again met in a final group stage game, West Germany v Austria (1982), with the Germans in a must-win situation, while Austria would advance even in case of a one goal loss. After Germany scored early, the Austrians, unlike 1978, made few efforts to tie the game which is dubbed Non-aggression pact of Gijón. Both teams advanced.'

This particular game was a shame anyway, and no one wants it to ever be repeated. But when reading Your lines, not just my own reaction, but UNANIMOUSLY THE SAME of meanwhile more than a dozen people (NOT all my friends, and with no explanation given before letting them read the lines) was: 'Wait a minute! This wasn't just us, it was the Germans as well!' In short, if reading Your lines, the overall impression is that it was AUSTRIA ALONE who manipulated the game. This is definitely wrong and unfair - the Germans have to share the blame. Therefore please add a few words to correct it: ('...few efforts to tie the game), neither did the Germans take any more risks to increase their lead. Therefore this game was ('dubbed...')--Oscar060549 (talk) 21:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * To add a German perspective to your Austria one: The sentence that Finger's phrase added insult to injury is BS, as you pointed out. I've removed it. 195.75.72.179 (talk) 08:24, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Move request

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 13:12, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Miracle of Córdoba → Austria v West Germany (1978 FIFA World Cup) – Per many other articles and because these matches shouldn't be titled by their subjective nicknames. The Evil IP address (talk) 12:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support this is supposed to be an encyclopedia not a blog. Not least because medieval Spain did have miracles, so the current title is WP:ASTONISHING. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment, some similarly titled articles to take a look on if this passes: Battle of Nuremberg (2006 FIFA World Cup), Battle of Berne (1954 FIFA World Cup), Battle of Santiago (1962 FIFA World Cup), Battle of Bordeaux (1938 FIFA World Cup), Battle of Highbury and some others. --The Evil IP address (talk) 15:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support as per IIO. --IJBall (talk) 18:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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