Talk:Autistic meltdown

Quotes requested
Please provide exact quotes from the text of this book including the term meltdown and the exact page numbers: Sandy Georgia (Talk)  11:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Meltdown manifests itself as an intense emotional outburst and may include crying, shouting, aggressiveness, or self-harm. It results from distress caused by unexpected changes, overwhelming social situations, or sensory overload.


 * I believe the main issue is that "meltdown" is a somewhat colloquial term. The source states: "There can be differences in the expression of anger and triggers of disruptive behavior in children with ASD compared to children only with conduct disorder. For example, anger outbursts in ASD have been described as “immature” with labels such as “meltdowns” being used to reﬂect the uncontrollable nature of these behaviors." and then never uses the term "meltdown" again in the particular entry, despite describing what the Wikipedia article understands as "meltdowns".
 * For example, the DSM-5-TR (page 74) uses the term "tantrum" to describe a meltdown: "Children with autism spectrum disorder may display tantrums because of an inability to tolerate a change from their expected course of events. In contrast, children with ADHD may misbehave or have a tantrum during a major transition because of impulsivity or poor self-control."
 * Similarly, the ICD-10 diagnostic guidelines state that "it is frequent for children with autism to show a range of other nonspecific problems such as [...] temper tantrums, and aggression." (page 254) and the DSM-IV-TR states "Individuals with Autistic Disorder may have a range of behavioral symptoms, including [...] aggressiveness, self-injurious behaviors, and, particularly in young children, temper tantrums." (page 72)
 * Among autistic people, caregivers, and clinicians, the term "meltdown" is in widespread use to distinguish temper tantrums (that autistic children can exhibit just as their non-autistic peers) from the autism-specific behavior, see eg the National Autistic Society's info page. How do you suggest we resolve this?--TempusTacet (talk) 11:55, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * TempusTacet could you please slow down? Are you familiar with WP:MEDRS?  You are continuing to introduce advocacy websites like the National Autistic Society, when you have Volkmar.  You can't use the DSM to source "meltdowns" if the DSM doeesn't use that term. You are engaging in WP:SYNTH which is WP:OR. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  12:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm familiar with WP:MEDRS. As I said, the problem is that the article is titled "meltdown", which is a colloquial term and generally not used in the medical literature that describes the very same behavior. For example, the DSM-5-TR criteria for ASD include "extreme distress at small changes" (B.2), which includes meltdowns and shutdowns.
 * We have a similar problem with the term "classic autism" (see Talk:Classic_autism) and I'm not sure how to resolve this. If you do not want to use colloquial terms (which, as far as I've seen, Wikipedia usually favors over medical terminology) then this article should probably be moved to a better title?--TempusTacet (talk) 12:32, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So, it looks like this article should go back to a redirect to Autism spectrum. All we have really is Volkmar, which doesn't warrant a separate article, particularly when you look at their exact wording. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  12:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the Volkmar chapters could be used to carefully write one sentence at the Other features of the main article, but we need to hew to their writing ... it's a term that has been used, not a "thing" as in a diagnosis. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  12:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There is plenty of literature on meltdowns, as they are one of the most obvious and most challenging behaviors of autistic people, in particular children. Many accommodations and interventions focus on reducing, avoiding, and managing meltdowns. I believe the main challenge is to structure the article in a way that resolves your SYNTH and OR concerns, which for the most part I share, although I don't believe that the article currently (after you've removed most of the initial content) contains wrong information or information that cannot be found elsewhere, so I'm not overly concerned.
 * It might also make sense to consider whether there should be a separate article on autistic shutdowns, which is another reaction to overwhelming situations. What do you think?--TempusTacet (talk) 12:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we should respect the actual wording from the actual expert (which Denis Sukhodolsky in Volkmar is, even in conditions beyond autism where such colloquialisms are favored by parents, which he has investigated for years if not decades): For example, anger outbursts in ASD have been described as "immature" with labels such as "meltdowns" being used to reﬂect the uncontrollable nature of these behaviors. It's a term used colloquially for angry outbursts, which may be many things actually, so this should be a redirect to Other features. We can't be making statements veering into cause, treatment, diagnosis etc.  This article is bordering on calling meltdowns a diagnosable thing with a specific etiology and earlier versions of this article were even suggesting treatment; meltdown is a term used to describe a behavior that can be included at Other features.  Wikipedia is not for WP:ADVOCACY. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Reiterated now by the quote from Haberman (... a so-called meltdown) ... Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:49, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure about your professional background but your understanding of "meltdowns" and view of this article's content seems very odd to me. "Meltdown" is a well-established term in the context of ASD, in particular in the context of therapeutic/pedagogical interventions. I'll have to do some digging to provide examples as it's not my core area of expertise, but frequency of meltdowns is a common measure to judge the effectiveness of interventions. It is furthermore well-established that tantrums (that are also exhibited by non-autistic people) and "meltdowns" are distinct phenomena. Such behaviors are regularly considered/investigated when substantiating a suspected ASD diagonsis. I further fail to see how "meltdown" could be related to advocacy? Just because the NAS and other organizations provide information on a topic does not make it a subject of advocacy (eg they also provide information on the causes of autism, which does not make "causes of autism" an advocacy topic).
 * As you've seen, I've started adding additional literature specifically focusing on meltdowns. If you don't like the term "meltdown", please suggest a different one, I didn't choose that title or create this article.--TempusTacet (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the article is getting better now that we are starting to use real sources, and getting quotes to show exactly what they say (and don't say). You're changing words to imply we know cause of this "thing" that is a colloquialism.  I think if you spend some time understanding the entire body of Sukhodolsky's work, you'll see the problems in using colloquialisms promoted by advocates.  As an example, we don't have an article on rage attacks, which was a term favored by advocates for children with neurological differences for years, and we can thank Sukhodolsky and colleages partly for that. And once we get this down to what it really is, then we'll see it should be back to a redirect, where it started. Thank you for the trans-title and quotes; please use them going forward, as the synth and original research need to be evaluated and corrected. You have once again removed the quote requested from Geoff without providing the quote. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:06, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I share your concern with using terminology exclusively promoted by advocates, of course, but this is not the case for "meltdown", which is in widespread use, similar to "stimming". It seems to me that you're not familiar with the term "meltdown" and its use? A "meltdown" is not something that occurs after distress but it is a reaction to distress currently experienced. You might want to have a look at the six-phase-model by Geoff & Sheehan. And again, if you don't like the term "meltdown", please suggest a different title and we can describe the phenomenon under a different title.--TempusTacet (talk) 15:18, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Off to a meeting now; please sign the post above because the reply-tool needs a sig to work, and now I'm out of time for the morning. (I hope to come back to an article that accurately reflects real sources like Volkmar eds, without SYNTH; I'm getting a sense of relief that you do know how to do that :). Regards, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:43, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * PS, previous work by the author who created this article had copvyio, so someone needs to check everything original that remains for both copyvio and too-close paraphrasing. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Back from my meeting. From this information at 's talk, you can see the context from the Volkmar book.  If we are really talking about anger outbursts, irritability, and other recognized behaviors in several conditions, then merging back to Autism is the most appropriate place for content which has few reliable MEDRS sources backing it, and the ones that are the highest quality seem to be saying it's a euphemism or a label sometimes applied colloquially. Historically, the term irritability was used in ASD literature as an umbrella category for severe disruptive behaviors including temper tantrums, aggression, and non- compliance ... anger outbursts in ASD have been described as “immature” with labels such as “meltdowns” being used to reflect the uncontrollable nature of these behaviors.
 * Other than that, we mostly have dubious publishers, blogs, and advocacy websites using the term. I am not yet convinced we should have an article. Even Habermann uses "so called" when referring to it.  Beardon seems to be the only legit source so far using the term without qualifiers, but I don't know if full context is given for the quote provided. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you're trying to achieve here, to be honest. I don't need to check someones talk page, I can just read the "Encyclopedia of Autism Spectrum Disorders" directly. Are you suggesting that I added a reference without accessing it?
 * If you don't want to have an article on autistic meltdowns please nominate it for deletion. You seem to have little practical experience working with autistic children in eg a therapeutic or pedagogical setting. I've pointed out again and again that "meltdown" is mostly a colloquial term for anger/emotional outbursts and associated behavior, just as "stimming" is an umbrella term for many behaviors described in the the DSM-5 B criteria. It's a useful term, widely understood among people working with autistic children, and since Wikipedia is not a medical encyclopedia but a general one, colloquial terms can be used.
 * I'm here to share my knowledge and contribute to a well-informed public but not to argue with you or fulfill your demands. I've tried to help get this article into shape and establish the credibility of the concept of meltdowns. That's all I can do.--TempusTacet (talk) 20:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Removing maintenance tags without addressing issues
Please refrain from removing maintenance tags without addressing the issue. See WP:NONENG. We need a trans-title parameter on the citation template for the German source, and a translation of the quote that specifically verifies the cited text. And that is a broad enough quote to put it in context of the original research and synthesis ongoing at this article. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I've resolved this, I think. I find your editing style very confusing, I'm still struggling to handle the references & remember all the tweaks to the Wikipedia text editor's default settings. I did not provide quotes from Colvin as I would need to copy entire sections, which as far as I understand would be a copyright violation.--TempusTacet (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * We need a quote from Geoff that verifies the content. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you please point me to a Wikipedia guideline that mandates verbatim quotes from sources? I've seen this occasionally but it's certainly not the standard. It seems very odd to me, never in my life as an (academic) writer I've been asked to provide lengthy quotes. If author, title, year of publication, and page number are provided, it's easy to verify.
 * In the particular case, as I have now said several times, the length of the quote would exceed the length of the article.--TempusTacet (talk) 15:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you read Template:Request quotation? If the length of the quote needed to back a simple statement is so long that it can't be posted here to talk, that leads to more concern of SYNTH.  You can always use ellipses to get to the gist of the portions needed, or you can email to another editor the three pages.  (You don't have to add the quote to the article, except in instances of WP:NONENG, to aid the reader at times.). But the statement being cited is simple: They can occur due to distress caused by unexpected changes, overwhelming social situations, or sensory overload.. It should not be hard to provide enough of a quote to show how the source backs the fact that these are causal.  On the other hand, if you get rid of "due to" and change it to "after", I won't request a quote.  I'm concerned that we are inferring cause rather than describing a behavior. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The source provides a long list of possible triggers for meltdowns, with each list entry consisting of an entire paragraph of text. Currently, I've done little more than adding references to the text that was created by the original author and you but haven't yet started to revise the text based on the references I added. I did not plan to work on an article on meltdowns, I just came across it as I'm concerned with ensuring that information on ASD and related topics on Wikipedia is accurate & current. I'll have to read the book by Geoff & Sheehan in-depth before expanding the article, and I'll also try to add information on interventions and expand the law enforcement sentence into its own paragraph/section.--TempusTacet (talk) 15:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * See ; it doesn't seem we should be using this source (Geoff) at all. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Interventions and content related to autism and law enforcement belongs at Societal and cultural aspects of autism. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

SYNTH
This source never uses the term meltdown. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Suppression of meltdowns is a form of autistic masking.[original research?][7]
 * Let me just ask you: Are you disputing the factual accuracy of this statement or are you just being nitpicky?--TempusTacet (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * When did I stop beating my husband? I am telling you the statement is WP:SYNTH because the source never uses the term.  If you find a source that actually backs the content, I won't dispute it. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm mostly interested in understanding your motivation, at this point. I've understood that you don't like the term "meltdown", which is a fair position to take. But I don't yet understand whether you believe that the suppression of outwardly reactions to sensory overload/overwhelming situations/distress does not fall under the umbrella of masking in autistic people (as defined, eg, by the DSM-5: "Symptoms [...] may be masked by learned strategies in later life"). To resolve your concern, it's important to know whether you believe that the statement is true but the source is insufficient, or if you believe the statement is false.--TempusTacet (talk) 15:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You may find that questioning editor motivation doesn't usually go well on wikipedia; have you read WP:RGW and WP:TRUTH? My "motivation" is simple. I wrote the first version of Fred Volkmar, so whenever someone links to that article in a new article, I am pinged.  Following up on the ping, I saw a very VERY poor article here.  It's getting better, but I'm still not sure we even have an article.  Irritability and anger outbursts are the behaviors referred to by the real sources, which state that meltdowns are basically a euphemism, in so many words. I've never said I don't like the term, and what I believe about anything is irrelevant.  Resolving source-to-text integrity issues has nothing to do with my beliefs.  But, if you want to know, I have none on the topic.  I want the article cleaned up properly, or more likely, merged back from whence it came if it can't be.  Articles like this tend to be magnets for POV pushers and WP:ADVOCACY. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait a second. You're the one suggesting that I'm engaging in "advocacy" or incapable of judging and citing literature. I'm not questioning your motivation, I'm trying to understand what issue you'd like to have addressed. If you don't believe that meltdowns can be masked, we're having a different discussion than if you don't like the source.
 * I'll just point out that I started to introduce information from the encyclopedia edited by Volkmar, and it might be an indication of my background that I have access to this publication. If you believe I'm someone trying to "right great wrongs" or spread "the truth", so be it, I'm not interested in arguing with you or proving myself to you.--TempusTacet (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see where I'm suggesting any of that; please don't put words at my fingertips that I haven't typed. I'm describing these kinds of articles in general (particularly the advocacy state of it when it was re-created by an editor other than you). I suggest you re-read  this entire page another day, with a fresh mindset, as I have never called *you* an advocate, nor suggested the article should be deleted (rather merged), nor said you are incapable of citing literature.  Perhaps a re-read on a new day, with the accumulated knowledge of what we've discussed so far, will give you a new viewpoint on what I've stated now several times.  And please try to avoid personalizing.  The content for irritability, emotional dysregulation, angry outbursts, meltdowns -- or whatever else -- is undeveloped at the article where it belongs, which is autism.  The colloquialism has not been demonstrated to be worthy of a separate article. We have two real sources, and both downplay it as a colloquialism. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Skyhorse Publishing
I don't know why the article is using a book published by (controversial) Skyhorse Publishing when we have Volkmar (ed). This gives another indication of the dubious character of this article. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:10, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/27/tony-lyons-skyhorse-publisher-cancelled-books
 * https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/09/skyhorse-publishings-house-of-horrors
 * https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2020-10-08/woody-allens-publisher-cant-be-canceled
 * If you believe that "meltdowns" don't exist or are a "dubious" concept, please just nominate this article for deletion. Colvin and Sheehan are reputable authors and Corwin Press is the original publisher, the 2014 edition by Skyhorse Publishing seems to be just a reprint.
 * The encyclopedia by Volkmar, as is the nature of a reference work, only provides a cursory overview and cannot be the sole source for a Wikipedia article.--TempusTacet (talk) 20:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Nominating the article for deletion is not the question; merging the content back where it came (Autism) before the poorly sourced article was recently recreated is. The Volkmar (ed) publications provide the context for the colloquialism, while anger outbursts, disruptive behaviors, irritability and emotional dysregulation, as core comorbidites of autism spectrum disorder, are mostly not even mentioned at that article, where this and they belong, per secondary reviews:
 * Yes, since Volkmar (eds) are the only decent (so far) mention of the term, and they place it in context of a colloquilism for other better known behaviors, we do not have enough for an article. That this article has had to resort to Skyhorse Publishing as a source says it all.  We seem to be in agreement:  And since Volkmar is basically all we've really got so far, we don't have the basis for an article, while alternately, there are scores to hundreds of secondary reviews on frequent ASD comorbidities like irritability, angry outbursts, etc, that are scarcely yet even mentioned at the ASD article. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how the sources you provided relate to the behavior(!) described in the article. I'll WP:DROPTHESTICK now, I have no idea what you're arguing for or against, this is probably the most fruitless discussion I've had on Wikipedia.--TempusTacet (talk) 21:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A re-read of Sukhodolsky might help. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  22:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, since Volkmar (eds) are the only decent (so far) mention of the term, and they place it in context of a colloquilism for other better known behaviors, we do not have enough for an article. That this article has had to resort to Skyhorse Publishing as a source says it all.  We seem to be in agreement:  And since Volkmar is basically all we've really got so far, we don't have the basis for an article, while alternately, there are scores to hundreds of secondary reviews on frequent ASD comorbidities like irritability, angry outbursts, etc, that are scarcely yet even mentioned at the ASD article. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how the sources you provided relate to the behavior(!) described in the article. I'll WP:DROPTHESTICK now, I have no idea what you're arguing for or against, this is probably the most fruitless discussion I've had on Wikipedia.--TempusTacet (talk) 21:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A re-read of Sukhodolsky might help. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  22:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Missing page numbers and overquoting
if you can supply page numbers for the citations you added, I can reduce the overquoting (too much quoting becomes plagiarism), work the quoted content in to the article, and organize the material thematically according to WP:MEDMOS. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:10, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

shouldn't it be decreases instead of increases?
The introduction says "They are linked to maturity and may escalate with age." But the sited source says "The intensity and number of tantrums tend to decrease with age although typically developing children continue to outwardly display anger and frustration, behaviors that parents often label as tantrums." Oshul (talk) 17:45, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree. It seems to thoughtlessly take from this later passage: "In children with ASD, if temper tantrums and disruptive behavior are present in childhood, they are likely to persist and may escalate in up to one third of adolescents ". I believe the text means that these behaviors may escalate during adolescence - and, based on what was stated earlier, then de-escalate with age.
 * I would love for someone to double-check if my interpretation might be correct, as I believe this line is quite misleading in its current state, but could also quickly be revised. Clorofolle (talk) 19:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Tantrum and meltdown (again)
An IP editor added "sometimes wrongly described as a "tantrum" but it is different". I removed this because it contradicts the text later in the article, "There is no scientifically agreed upon distinction between a meltdown and a tantrum". Posting here for further discussion if needed. Tacyarg (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)