Talk:Automotive lighting/Archive 2

History and Timeline sections are needed
There's a wealth of information on the technology but very little about history, more generally conceived. I'd like to see some discussion of "firsts": first patent, inclusion as an option, first time as standard equipment, first time required by law. Also, a timeline would be extremely useful, whether as part of this page or as an independent article. There are already series of timelines for aviation and rail but none for automobiles! Inter lingua 14:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Reference quality
, thanks very much for your contributions to this article. The "Dole/Liddy Light" assertion went unsupported for a very long time, and the three references presently supporting it, which you provided, are of high quality. Thank you for finding and inserting them. Please keep making solid contributions like this!

The references you found for the rallye/off-road lighting assertions, unfortunately, aren't suitable. Both of them (1, 2) are commercial advertisements in the form of purchased magazine articles. Unless we are talking about advertisements (or advertisement per se), ads aren't an appropriate source of support for assertions. It certainly can be difficult these days discerning a bona fide article from a paid advertisement, because the media and advertisers grow ever more cunning in their efforts to present their commercials as "information", and often the transaction is implicit rather than explicit: If an advertiser buys a certain amount of advertising space, or provides free samples for a magazine's build-up project, the magazine kisses the advertiser's ass in an article. Please don't think this means that if there's an advertisement in the same magazine (newspaper, newscast, trade journal, website, etc.) that it means none of the content in the same mag/paper/cast/journal/site is acceptable for use as a source on Wikipedia; that's definitely not the case. But the refs you provided are clearly a commercial endorsement of a particular brand and model of auxiliary lamp.

It will probably be somewhat difficult to find good "clean" support for the assertion in question, because most writeups on how to set up your off-road/rallye vehicle's lighting will sooner or later recommend brands and models. But y'know, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me the best way forward is probably to remove the "citation needed" tag altogether. This is an assertion that's not terribly likely to be seriously challenged. If someone can eventually find a non-commercial source for the assertion, great, but I think we can leave it untagged. I'll go untag it now. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 01:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Lighting usage laws in specific countries
, Thanks for your contributions to this article. Please take heed that this is already a very long article, and while a sprinkling of examples of particular lighting laws in various countries adds to the breadth and depth of the article, it's neither germane nor appropriate to talk about the laws in Paraguay for each and every type of automotive lighting device. Think about it: If we did that, we'd also need to talk about the laws in Italy for each and every lighting device. And if we did that, we'd have to talk about the laws in Mexico for each and every lighting device. And if we did that, we'd have to talk about the laws in Bulgaria for each and every lighting device. And New Zealand. And Australia. And India. And the United States. And Canada. And Israel. And Dubai. And Japan. And Korea. And on and on and on...see the problem?

If you feel the vehicle regulations in Paraguay are unique and notable enough to be encyclopædic in their own right, by all means be bold and start such an article. But please stop trying to pack Automotive lighting with various assertions regarding lighting usage laws in Paraguay. Thanks! —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 02:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

--Fair enough. Aldo L (talk) 23:16, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Missing from this article
Where is reference made to self-leveling headlamps? Where is a description of adaptive lighting systems?64.107.58.130 (talk) 00:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Both subjects are covered in detail at Headlamp. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 01:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What about "steerable" headlamps? Quite a few cars have had extra driving lamps fitted that are turned in conjunction with the steering - I'm sure they've been around since the 1940s or maybe earlier, but I think the most well-known ones are the steering and levelling headlights fitted to the Citroen DS.  They're not really cornering lights, and not really driving lights.  Where should they go? Gordonjcp (talk) 10:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * These, too, are covered (and pictured!) at Headlamp. —Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 14:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Acura Integra pic
Albertosim1592, thanks for your contribution, but the photo of your car that you want to insert isn't a particularly good choice, because multiple illuminated lights are shown: the car's daytime running lights are on, as are its front turn signals, sidemarker lights, and parking lamps; it's not clear to the casual reader which lights are which. It's best to illustrate articles like this with images that clearly show the particular, specific item discussed in the section being illustrated. Take note, for example, of the image used in the turn signals section of the article: the only lit lamps on the car in the photo are the turn signals. It's to be hoped that eventually we'll have a photo of a vehicle displaying a lit rear fog lamp, too, and so on and so forth. I hope you will work to contribute high-quality images to this and other articles in the project. It's certainly exciting to see one's own vehicle in a Wikipedia article, but please take care to place the quality of the article above your desire to see your own vehicle depicted therein. Also please remember not to add original research such as the (factually incorrect) text you added regarding amber parking lamps, and remember that edit wars are not allowed. Thanks for editing coöperatively! —Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 17:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I partly agree and partly disagree with this. On the one hand, I have inserted a picture of a car which has turn signal lights on, working as parking lamps. Maybe, not every car in the States works with that system (I missed it saying that Parking Lamps are ALWAYS wired to the Turn Signals, I should have said that Parking Lamps are SOMETIMES or ALMOST NORMALLY connected to the Turn Signals), but I can prove that's right, I mean, it is a FACT. You can tell, if you live in the US going on a road in a Sunday morning in which you can find cars that work like that (i.e. BMWs, Pontiac Ventures, Oldmobiles, etc). You should work that out, and tell me, if i'm wrong. On the other hand, I don't care if my car is in the Wikipedia or not, I mean, this doesn't seem to be an article with a high-rate of viewers, is it?


 * 2. "...and remember that edit wars are not allowed."


 * Sorry about that. It's quite dissapointing to spend a little of your golden time adding useful information one minute and realize that it's been deleted the other. I've been reading your User Profile and is sort of interesting.


 * Finally, I would like to ask for permission to place the picture of the Acura Integra with Parking Lights illuminated which you don't have any. Likewise, I thought it wasn't a good idea to miss a picture of the european Corvette with those amber (¿?) sidemarker lights.


 * Thanks, and sorry for any inconvenience. I would like to talk about this, it attracts my attention.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertosim1592 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No inconvenience, and since nobody owns a Wikipedia article, there's no permission to ask of me (or anyone else) before you make a contribution or an edit. But your edits and contributions will be much more likely to withstand other editors' scrutiny and amelioration if you take care to understand what makes a good and durable contribution. It sounds as if you've found the material I've got on that subject on my user page; there's a great deal of additional good info elsewhere on Wikipedia, and experienced editors and administrators are usually willing to help get your questions answered, so please make full use of the article and user talk pages.


 * You're right that it is very common in North America to have dual-intensity amber front lights that serve as parking lamps (dim) and turn signals (bright). This is an arrangement not allowed in most areas outside North America, so it's a good idea to show and tell about it here. But the only way we can effectively show this setup is with an animated image that actually shows the bright/dim operation. For an example, take a look at the image used to illustrate the concept of "hidden headlamps" in another article. [[Image:Mazda323FBG_KlappscheinwerferAni.gif|thumb|150px|right]]I've placed it here alongside my present comments. This kind of image gives a clear presentation of a change-of-state phenomenon, and a similar animated image would serve well to illustrate the combination amber park/turn lamps, don't you think?


 * As for the German Corvette: It's a much better image than the one we had before for illustrating the rear fog lamps (though still not perfect, as previously noted; it'd be better to have an image with a rear fog lamp lit...perhaps another animated image, with rear fog + tail, and then the brake lamp is activated, to show the intensity differences). It's not such a good selection for showing the amber rear sidemarker, because retroreflectors tend to shift colour when photographed, particularly with flash. Red ones look amber; it's kind of difficult to tell what colour the rear sidemarker is on the depicted Corvette. I do agree with you that some sidemarker images would be a good addition; perhaps we'll wind up with an image showing the European amber front/amber rear vs. the American amber front/red rear configuration. In either event, the sidemarker photo(s) should focus on the sidemarkers, just as the parking lamp photo should focus on the parking lamps.


 * Two final points: It's neither necessary nor a good idea to re-post the text you're replying to on the talk page. Just go ahead and respond; anyone who wants a refresher can scroll up and see what you're responding to. Also, please sign your comments on talk pages, and if you forget to do so and the automatic SineBot does it for you, please don't go back and erase the auto signature. Thanks! —Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 18:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * About your 2nd paragraph: that is an arrangement not allowed in ALL areas outside North America. Well, I think there have been a misundertanding here. I wanted to show my Honda CRX with the any-other-car Turn Signals activated working as no-other-car-outside-North-America Parking Lights. I didn't mean to centralize the picture to the flashing (animation, you know) but to the FACT that regular Turn Signals are on, working as Parking Lamps. You're asking for too much when you ask for animations, I don't know how to make GIFs.


 * I wasn't talking about the Corvette in the Rear Fog Lights section (in which I prefer the Aurora picture, is not a common feature in the US) but the one in the Sidemarker Lights section -not visible-. By the way, what about the Parking Lamps picture of the Integra?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertosim1592 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * H'mm. It seems we're still having some difficulty communicating, but let's keep trying. I've re-added your Acura Integra pic as a section header image, where it's a good fit because multiple lighting functions are shown. I'm not asking too much when I describe the ideal image to illustrate the North American combination park/turn lamp, because I'm not necessarily asking you to provide it. There are areas outside North America where amber front parking lamps are permitted and/or have been permitted in the past. Examples include Israel, New Zealand, South Africa, Japan, and Australia. I understood exactly which Corvette image you were referring to; I was explaining why it's a better illustration for the rear fog lamps section than for the sidemarker section. The previous Olds Aurora picture was of relatively poor quality — too dark and with insufficient contrast. It's likely we'll have more and better images as you and I and others carry on contributing to it, but in the meantime, let's not reduce the quality of the article by putting in images significantly less than optimal. Also — again — please sign your comments on talk pages, okay? Thanks! —Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 22:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. I denote certain indifference toward my person (my pictures weren't specially less than optimal). I didn't mean to say that you were asking me to do it, I knew you where also talking about somebody else. Anyway, you ask for too much, it's not an easy deal, otherwise it would be already done. Can you really prove if parking lamps were permitted in all those areas? About the Corvette pic, you keep misunderstanding me. There was a different picture from the one that is attached in the "Rear Fog Light" section: it was a Corvette, yes, but it wasn't the same picture (one is a C5 and the one I'm talking about is a C6). You're very welcome -I thought I heard there was an automatic system-. —ASIM T&middot;C 22:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I can support my assertion that amber parking lamps are permitted in the places I mentioned, and I'm sure I'll wind up doing so in the article before long. No, the fact that an optimal image doesn't exist is definitely not evidence that producing it is impossible or unduly difficult. Remember, the default status of most Wikipedia articles is unfinished! I see what you mean about the C6 vs. C5 Corvette pic — thanks for persisting until I understand you. I still think we can probably find a better sidemarker light picture, but if not, we do have the C6 pic to fall back on. The present caption for your Integra picture is precise and accurate; the front turn signals on that vehicle use single-filament bulbs and serve only as turn signals (when only one side flashes) and hazard flashers (when both sides flash together). They do not serve as parking lamps; that function is handled by the corner lamps outboard of the headlamps, which also contain the sidemarker light and reflector functions. Yes, there is an automatic signature system, but it's a backup, not a replacement, for manually signing your post. —Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 00:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Scheinwerfermann. I don't know what you exactly mean with "...by the corner lamps outboard of the headlamps...": as far as I'm concerned, when I turn on the motor by means of the ignition key, parking lamps turn on (and I include white and amber lights), as well as sidemarker lights.—ASIM T&middot;C 22:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What about this to demonstrate the lighting system? [[Image:Lampsystemus.gif|thumb|100px|right]].—ASIM T&middot;C 9:20 AM, November 16th 2008 (EST)
 * Good effort, but there are a few things that make this not a good selection. In the first place, there's a whole lot of stuff going on in this animated image. Various lights turning on and off, various lights getting brighter and dimmer. Images should clearly show one thing where possible, or a single set of related effects. Otherwise we'd need a super-long caption to describe everything going on in the movie, and short captions are best. In addition, this shows a non-stock lighting configuration on that vehicle. I don't know if you did it or a previous owner did it, but somebody modified the front turn signals on that car so they illuminate steadily when the parking lamps are turned on. They're not meant to, on that car; somebody has altered the wiring without knowing what he was doing. The bright/dim intensity contrast very clearly isn't large enough (it has to be 5:1); the signals as shown not only aren't stock, but also aren't safe. It's best to avoid using customised/modified configurations as illustrations, because they are misleading. But it's good to see that creating animated gifs is not, in fact, the impossible task you seemed yesterday to think it was! ;-)
 * Also, just as we avoid lengthy captions, we also avoid lengthy section header titles in talk pages. Keep it to as few words as possible, otherwise it spoils the table of contents and makes the page difficult to navigate. Thanks! —Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 14:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm not sure if somebody has handled the wiring system, and I don't really know why you are so sure it shouldn't be like I have posted it here. I mean, I bought this 1991 Acura Integra LS about 5 years ago, and I was given it as shown here. I can't even imagine what you mean with "...but also aren't safe.": I may think that those amber turn signals aren't stock just going to any webpage and searching for it, or even seeing some more Integras on the roadway, but I don't really think it is unsafe. I haven't been fined and I haven't had troubles with it so far. What do you think? Anyway, about the picture, what about separating hazard flashers animation and turn signals animation? Thanks again. I'm an obstinate, actually: when I aim to get something, I REALLY aim to get something. —ASIM T&middot;C 10:47 AM, November 16th 2008 (EST)