Talk:Automotive safety/Archive 1

Door handles
Someone needs to add the diference between uniform door handles and external ones designed for winch extraction. Please do this, because it is rarely mentioned and can be indicative of whether the manufacturer put money into other areas of the car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.158.199 (talk) 23:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Reaction time
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I appologize for this type of comment.

There is some bullshit in the article.

" Distance covered by vehicles in one second (the typical human reaction time). "

Typical human reaction time is 0.2-0.27 sec http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time

If a typical human reaction time was 1 sec, driving would be fucking insane.

Sorry again. Reaction time, as applied to driving a car, is the amount of time it takes for a human to react to an unexpected event. It takes an additional half second to (a) determine what is happening; and (b) determine a course of action. It then takes an additional quarter second to affect a manouver. Most people simply react to a situation by braking. Although this reduces the half-second decision making time dramatically, it is frequently not a correct action to make. If someone steps in front of a car or cuts you off, or if you begin to hydroplane, braking may not avoid an accident. Thus, you fully require a second to avoid many accidents. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I am generally a grammar-minded person, rather than a word choice-minded person. So, my critiques will probably be somewhat... grammar-minded in nature :-).


 * the minimization of harmful effects, specially on people - use especially in this case
 * either by crashing into something, or by being crashed into - not the best word choice, and into is a preposition; it's generally considered incorect to end sentences with prepositions
 * overtired driving --> driving while fatigued?
 * typos and related errors - immidiatley, case more damage, in 1975 The
 * Generally, there's no need to repeat United States in front of links (i.e. United States Congress); instead of "by the United States Congress", say "by Congress"; most people will know what you are talking about when referring to "Congress".

But this page looks fine; no glaring POV or anything of that sort. Nice job! ugen64 03:18, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree, and I'll do a little rewording, hope you don't mind. Here's a question:


 * Every year thousands of people are killed in car crashes.
 * Where does this statistic come from? Later you write there are 40,000 deaths in the U.S. alone - I'm missing: "according to..." Also, does anyone actually make a distinction between deaths in car crashes and deaths in other road accidents? Shouldn't "road accidents" be the term used here?


 * Most seats require top slot for forward-facing
 * What does this mean? And a final question, something I'm personally interested in - is there any information about special safety devices for pregnant women who can't get the darned seatbelt to sit right? Woggly 07:37, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Airbags
The trouble with airbags is that they are on the inside instead of the outside. That way they make the driver feel safe to eat his hamburger, sip his beer and talk on his cell phone, but do no good to the pedestrian he hits. --David R. Ingham 17:09, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

In fact, airbags are one of the most imperative additions to cars to have come as of yet. Although you show concern for the type of safety currently in vehicles today, be assured that technology is quickly catching up. Pedestrian detection and avoidance technologies now make vehicles able to detect and actually assist in avoiding pedestrians. The new Lexus 600h is one of the leading vehicles in the U.S. market, using a complex array of stereo cameras, millimeter wave radars, infrared sensors, vector analysis, and other devices to assist in real world crash (and more importantly pedestrian) avoidance. The airbags currently offered in vehicles though, do help to protect the driver, which is also vitally important. Through the addition of side airbags, knee airbags, and dual-stage/dual-threshold technologies, cars have become not only safe - but adaptive. Something that will please you though, is that the current plethora of airbag advancements on the inside of cars has led some to believe that the wave of future auto-safety development to be... you guessed it: exterior airbags. AutonomousCars09 04:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

seatbelt tension and the dummy test
Something ought to be said about this:

Crash tests are done with dummies. The dummies are not capable of controlling the car. Thus, the crash tests fail to discriminate against designs that make control of the car difficult. Cars, naturally, are designed for the test, which is not the same as being designed for safety.

Consider the seat belt tensioner. This lovely little device nearly got me into a crash. I applied the brakes rather strongly, silently triggering the device. My shoulder belt became immobile, unbeknownst to me. I then tried to turn sharply to the right in an evasive action. In doing so, I normally bring my left shoulder forward for better control. (leverage I guess) This time, when I most needed to operate my steering wheel without obstruction or distraction, I was held back by an ill-conceived "safety" device. I'm lucky the safety equipment didn't kill me. It nearly did.

I like to avoid crashes. I'm sure the seat belt tensioner is really great... if you are a crash dummy.

24.110.60.225 07:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, first off, crash tests are to evaluate structural strengths and how the passengers fare if a real-world vehicular crash happened. The dummies are not capable of controlling the car because they're not supposed to be, otherwise they would be called robots.  Second, the crash tests are once again used to evaluate the car's structural integrity and the occupants' condition throughout the crash, but they are now adapting to incorporate what you're b*tching about, "controlling the car", also known as active safety.  This means that the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) now requires vehicles to have ESC or Electronic Stability Control, to receive a perfect rating.  By 2012, the U.S. gov't will require all vehicles sold on the U.S. market to have a stability program, so people whose seatbelt locks up, like you, can still avoid accidents if too incompetent to do so.  Next, the device you're talking about is an old one.  It's called an ELR or Emergency Locking Retractor, and is not an ill-conceived safety device.  The device was designed in the era before crash predictive technologies became available.  Now, we have millimeter wave radars and other types of sensors to assist your car in predicting accidents before they happen.  But with older vehicles, like yours, it's the best type of predictive technology available other than good old ABS.  Your seat belt is just doing what it was designed to do, lock up when it thinks you're going to have an accident.  If you would like a smarter car, buy an upscale luxury model.  Volvo and Lexus have models that can help you avoid accidents and react much quicker than humanly possible.  Another thing, your brakes didn't "silently trigger" the device.  Your seat movement did.  The car lurched and the belt attempted to hold you back, not almost kill you.  The irony is that even if that safety device caused you to get into an accident, along with the seat belt pretensioner and force limiter, it would have been what helped you survive.  If you hate the predictive technologies in seat belts then I suggest you don't wear one and chance your luck not shooting through the windshield.     —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AutonomousCars09 (talk • contribs) 05:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC).


 * If you cannot make the necessary inputs when your seat belt is locked, there's something wrong with your driving position or the way you're wearing the belt. Autocrossers make extreme steering inputs, one after the other, and most of the better ones are either wearing harnesses or deliberately locking their seat belt tensioner to keep their upper body firmly planted against the seatback.  I can't quite visualize how your belt is interfering with you, but I'm quite sure the blame shouldn't fall to the safety device.  -- Coneslayer 16:12, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Driving test - emergency stop - when pregnant
My wife is due to do her driving test in a couple of weeks. We have just discovered she is pregnant. She is concerned that the 'emergency stop' procedure in the test could damage the baby. I have searched online but can finds no references to this. Has anyone heard of anything, or any experience - eg having done the test at 9-10 weeks... 81.178.229.20 11:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't believe they require that anymore, although I would contact your secretary of state or dmv. If the seatbelt is put on properly though, it is unlikely that it should affect the baby at all on such a test.  A car with stability control would give you the best chance of having a controlled braking operation. AutonomousCars09 05:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You can ask at Reference desk/Science, but remember to not rely on anonymous internet users, and to ask a doctor also. -- Jeandré, 2006-02-12t16:32z

Informed for life
User:InformedForLife added the following:

Because there exists so much dis-information and hype regarding vehicle safety, an objective metric was created in 2003, by a mechanical engineer, to measure overall passenger vehicle safety on a fatality-weighted basis. The Vehicle Risk Index is posted for most passenger vehicles on a free, public service website, www.InformedForLife.org, and is sponsored by a nonprofit organization, Informed For Life, Inc.
 * vehicle risk index

A couple of problems: first, the text is patently not stated in neutral terms. Second, there is no evidence of the significance of the group. Third, the user self-identifies with the group; per WP:EL you should not add links to your own website.

So, editors on this article might want to review this group and see if it merits inclusion. Just zis Guy you know? 17:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

driving unconscious
Major factors in accidents include driving under the influence of alcohol or other drugs; inattentive driving; driving while fatigued or unconscious

How do you drive a car when you are unconscious?


 * A. In the same fashion as 'Sleep-walking'. Driving a car while unconscious (e.g., falling asleep at the wheel) is a very dangerous condition. :) --Lperez2029 19:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, a NY Times article found that sleep aids such as Lunesta and Ambien sometimes cause people to drive while asleep, or unconscious.  AutonomousCars09 05:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Rev: The author could have also ment the condition after you fall asleep at the wheel. I don't see anything wrong with including it in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * Even apart from pseudo sleep-walking (sleep-driving?), it could simply refer to individuals passing out / feinting while driving. -- Bossi  ( talk • gallery • contrib ) 00:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Toddler contradiction
It says toddlers should be placed in forward facing seats however it has been proven that it also states it is safer to face rearwards. Lord fabs 01:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe it is safer to put infants in rearward facing car seats and toddlers in front facing car seats. You can use resources like safercar.gov, run by the NHTSA, or the IIHS.org site to help you in protecting your child. AutonomousCars09 05:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Teenage Drivers
I added a point about the use of "Novice Driver" signs that are required for new (under 1 yr experience) drivers in my area. Personally I think they are a fantastic idea, and ought to be stressed even in areas where they are not manditory. Whenever I see vehicles ahead of me with a novice driver sign in their rear window, it lets me be more cautious to more nervous and less predictable dirving, also I generally don't get mad or honk when they cut me off or do something retarded. Also I'd like to change this part of the page from "teenage drivers" to "novice drivers", since plenty of new drivers are older. Any thoughts?--Evilbred (talk) 14:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It is unfair to consider all teenage drivers to be irresponsible. Lack of experience does NOT mean lack of responsibility. There are plenty of young drivers out there who exercise due care on the roadways. Society simply perceives teenage drivers to be reckless because it is only the irresponsible ones who make headlines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mannyram24 (talk • contribs) 03:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No mention of safety advocates.
If someone is so inclined, perhaps a mention, of oh, Ralph Nader and his study, "Unsafe at Any Speed". It's all on his page, maybe someone more knowledgeable in the subject could put together a section on public advocacy on safety. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.96.134.61 (talk) 12:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Passive vs Active safety
The way this is discussed in the article opens a can of worms, and will eventually lead to reader confusion. Passive or active is not an internal or external identifier, but a functional description of safety devices. Passive safety devices can be both internal or external to a vehicle. I believe there are only a few places in the article that need revision, but I thought it important to stay with industry convention. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE 20:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There have indeed been problems with the way passive and active are defined and discussed in this article. Sometimes the two terms' meanings have been swapped, and sometimes wholly novel definitions have been ascribed to the terms with no support. A passive safety device is one which requires no action by the vehicle occupant in order to function. The obvious example is an airbag. An active safety device is one which requires action by the vehicle occupant in order to function. The corresponding example is an ordinary seat belt, which the driver must fasten. The confusion is usually not malicious — it is tricky to keep track of the definitions when "active" head restraints (which move into a position that optimises their injury-preventing function when a crash is imminent) are in fact passive safety devices (because the driver needn't do anything to make them work). This is a basic principle that ought to be explained clearly and completely towards the beginning of the article, and the whole of the article ought to be checked and corrected for consistency with these basic definitions. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 23:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've got a start at untangling the mess and categorising and winnowing out the links. I've reworked the section headings and subheads to correspond coherently to the various classes and subclasses of safety devices and system. A great deal more work is needed on this article. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually I have to disagree with your definition of active/passive. Sorry.  Active devices are those that include sense and control in the context of using electronic data processing to make a decision.  A passive device merely reacts in a specified way when acted upon without any preemptive processes.  A seatbelt with or without a traditional dual-sensing inertia reel is passive.  If a pyrotechnic pretensioning system is added to the inertia reel, that part is active.  A metal or concrete barrier on the side of the road, a structural beam in the car door, a standard headrest, padded dash and crush zones are passive safety devices.  An air bag system, traction control, and antilock braking system are active safety devices.  These all include sense and control.  I would classify a ball mass/switch control of an air bag system to be semi-active at most.  Whether the occupant interacts with the device or system is not relevant to the definition. -- T HE F OUNDERS I NTENT  PRAISE 13:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's fine that you disagree — many people do; it can be difficult to accept the notion of a manual seat belt as an "active" safety device — but in fact the present definitions of active and passive safety devices accord with how those terms are applied by vehicle safety researchers, engineers, and regulators. Just about any text on the subject (such as this one) will paint the picture for you, though you needn't go that far; viz the "passive restraint" terminology officially applied to airbags and (for a brief time in the U.S.) motorised seat belts, even though these devices' operation is very active in nature. As the article (now) discusses, this is a very difficult bit of terminology to navigate clearly and accurately. Please see here, here, here (PDF), here, here, here, here (PDF), here, here, here, and here. Some of these will make good supporting refs for the assertions in the article; I'll add 'em. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 19:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

—Scheinwerfermann (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Pink cars vs. black cars
The article says that "A Swedish study found that pink cars are involved in the fewest accidents, with black cars being most often involved in crashes (Land transport NZ 2005)." This could be because there are fewer pink cars on the road than there are black cars. Anyway I think this should be clarified and/or properly sourced and thereby clarified. Barnsoldat91 (talk) 23:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)