Talk:Autonomic nervous system/Archive 1

Cleanup
I think I can help get it into better shape, and I'll keep in mind to put the sources in the right places. I need to take a look at some of the information on Wiki format and procedures first. Would you allow me to take a look around and get a sense of how things work here; then, as soon as I have the time, I will try to move this article a few steps forward? Then from there (or if I'm bogged down on something) maybe you can lend some assistance? Thanks. Oh, and is there a deadline on these? Eddie Zattara
 * Hi Eddie. There is no formal deadline.  Check out Citing sources if you're unsure about Wiki format. And be bold! Happy editing.Katsam 01:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

PNS
Blonde2max 09:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The PNS is the prehiperal nervous system; not the parasympathetic nervous system.....

..... or it might even refer to the peripheral nervous system. Presumably the prehiperal nervous system applies to the femur? (Only joking before anyone takes me the last sentence to task.) 8=P

Candy 17:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Poorly written?
I came here by accident and was about to leave when I started to read the artcile.

My first comment is that it ready like a medical textbook. My feeling this can be fine in a medical textbook but it becomes overly terse and inaccessible. Surely not the point of this article. I will come back and rewrite some of the simpler stuff later but for tasters consider:

"The autonomic nervous system regulates bodily functions and the activity of specific organs." Implies that it is the only system regulating bodily functions - which it is not. What is an unspecific organ? It should be some organs! Anyway, it regulates  bodily functions through its effect on some systems and organs.

For example, the ANS plays a role in the diameter of blood vessels; heart rate and the force of contraction; pupil diameter; salivation; perspiration; bronchiole diameter; peristaltic movements in intestine; spinctor diameter; erection and ejaculation; parturition; and more." Rather heavy on the semi colon. The comma will do far better here as this is no need for a supercomma and this is not connected sentences. "Plays a role" in the diameter of blood vessels. Very unspecific."Heart rate and the force of contraction"? If it means the contraction of the ventricles it should say so!!

"Although the bodily functions that the ANS regulates are typically portrayed as being outside of voluntary control, they are not completely outside our awareness, and some schools of thought believe that one's state of mind impacts the functioning of the ANS. It remains open to debate whether the term "involuntary" nervous system is a precise description of the ANS. Many autonomic functions are beyond conscious control, but others are impacted voluntarily including the sphincters in urination (micturition)."

What is the point of this? Trying to sound clever? Some schools of thought? It might as well say schools of fish! Who, what, why? "Not completely out of our awareness? For goodness sake my heart jumps in my chest when I am scared! You think we are not aware?

Consider, "Much of the action of the ANS is under involuntary control. Humans are not conscious of many of the functions of the ANS although they become aware of some effects such as the "fight or flight" response (acute stress response). Specialist training can moderate the affects of ANS actions in humans such a a target shooter slowing the heart rate when squeezing the trigger the control of sphincter actions involving defecation and urination (micturation)."

Sorry, gotta hit and run ... so much to do, so little time to do it!

Candy 17:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Images
Are all those images from Gray's Anatomy really public domain? If not, they need to go. Isopropyl 15:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the public domain- the 1918 version of Gray's IS indeed public Domain, the newer versions are not. access to the 1918 version is available in full at www.bartleby.com/107. --129.78.208.4 06:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

the hpa system and autonomic nervous system got anything in common? j-knowls

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Intro
The introduction of this section seems poorly focused. I would like to attempt a rewrite. Jebica 19:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I wrote it practically from scratch and it can certainly be improved. But in what way is it "poorly focused"?

I now that u all thnk that this page is bad becuase it sucks, but i hav better reasons
Wen ur 3rd grade child is doing a project, u dont expect to hear upstairs ur little kid asking ur wife wat an erection is. I hav gotten rid of this word to protect the innocence of other kids. My kids innocence may be lost, but i wont let it happen to others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ptotheerry2 (talk • contribs).


 * Wikipedia is not censored. + A.0u  04:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I rewrote the intro paragraph. See if you don't like it better than the old one. There might be a more appropriate technical term for "conscious thought" though. Now onto a completely different topic; I read the post about the word "erection" destroying the innocence of a 3rd grader. That made me laugh out loud; when I was that age I was playing "doctor" on the neighborhood girls. So much for the innocence of children :-) 165.95.15.253 15:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC) TS

Cleanup
I did not finish reading the article, but just from the first line....it is wrong to classify the autonomic nervous system as the "involuntary" nervous system, and very few functions were listed in the intro. It is true that many autonomic functions are subconcious, but some can be controlled voluntarily, such as micturition. This misinformation is unfortunatly present all too often, even in some basic physiology textboks. I went ahead and changed the first paragraph,

This really needs to be cleaned up, for example the paragraph"Between stressful situations, the body needs to rest, recover, and gain new energy. These tasks are under the control of the parasympathetic system, which lowers the heart rate and blood pressure, diverts blood back to the skin and the gastrointestinal tract, contracts the pupils and bronchioles, stimulates salivary gland secretion, and accelerates peristalsis. The parasympathetic system influences organs toward restoration and the saving of energy." makes it sound like the sympathetic system is not working between stress events when, in fact, it is at work all the time, or else nobody would ever be able to maintain the blood pressure to even stand up.

Cleanup reconsidered: Despite the antiquated and archaic language supporting it, theory defining the [autonomic nervous system] as [sympathetic] and [parasympathetic] influences remains solid. I disagree with inclusion of an "enteric autonomic nervous system" as a third entity because it blurs literal rendering of the physiologic effect being studied. If we include "enteric" we must also include a cardiac autonomic nervous system, a pulmonary autonomic nervous system, an adrenal autonomic nervous system, a bladder autonomic nervous system, etc. Cleanup suggests we back away from the branches of the autonomic tree and document the governing forest.--Lbeben (talk) 05:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup
Hi. I fixed a lot of the first part of the article. I had to stop though. From the first mention of acetylcholine on still needs some work. I don't know how to notify the Wiki editors that the first part has been fixed. Thanks.

(Edit made Nov. 2005.)  (Account name added Eddie Zattara 22:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC))


 * Thanks Eddie, the Wiki editors are notified automatically. If you are not sure, you can always leave a comment, like:.


 * I think the article needs to be split according to the standard format used in other articles of the same kind:
 * Anatomy
 * Macroscopy
 * Microscopy
 * Embryology and development
 * Comparison between species
 * Physiology
 * Role in disease
 * Therapeutic interventions
 * Cultural references
 * See also
 * References
 * External links


 * I'm quite happy to lend a hand. What are your main sources? These should probably be mentioned in "references" rather then in the passing in the text. JFW | T@lk  19:53, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Suggest recruiting 2-3 professors of neurology to contribute a better outline for the article autonomic nervous system. Building blocks could thus start
 * primary/central, sympathetic/parasympathetic
 * secondary/peripheral

motor sensory cardiac pulmonary enteric renal/adrenal bladder etc.
 * A beautiful addition to the article would be the history behind the subject as the sources go back several hundred years.--Lbeben (talk) 22:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Long link affects page width
The link to "IngentaConnect Alpha-adrenoceptors in equine digital veins ..." is very long, and affects the width of the page when viewed with a enlarged text. (It also includes "jsession id" or something like that, which may be a temporary setting.) If it could be replaced by a shorter URL (such as a "tinyurl"), that would solve the problem.Unfree (talk) 03:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Polyvagal Theory
I do not see any mention in the article about the upcoming model that is challenging the classic model of the ANS. It proposes that there is a 3rd division of the ANS (not the Enteric System) called the Social Engagement System or Social Nervous System, more evolved than SNS and way more than the Parasympathetic. That instead of the classic see-saw (acceleration/brake) model, it's rather a phylogenetically hierarchical organization. Which means it strategically uses the most evolutionary evolved circuit first and with every failure moves to the next less evolved circuit (aka from Social to Sympathetic to Parasympathetic).—Gheemaker (talk • contribs) 07:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Show me clinically relevant and readily reproducible indicators of neurotransmitters at work here and I am on board. The vagus is indeed an important nerve with an array of parasympathetic end organ functionality better understood each day. Given a scalar view, perhaps 10% of vagal influence is dedicated to the enteric branches. --Lbeben (talk) 01:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Central nucleus
Central nucleus currently redirects to this article, but there is no mentioning of a central nucleus in the article. Shouldn't it rather redirect to amygdala? Icek (talk) 03:24, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The following sentence has an error: "With regard to function, the ANS is usually divided into sensory (afferent) and motor (efferent) subsystems. Within these systems, however, there are inhibitory and excitatory synapses between neurons."

It is the PERIPHERAL nervous system that is divided into the sensory (afferent) and motor (efferent) subsystems. The ANS is divided into the SYMPATHETIC and PARASYMPATHETIC subsystems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.54.4.209 (talk) 20:02, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Well done!
This page is really coming along since the last time I saw it. Kudos! Triggtay 21:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a section in the article that could prove useful would be "Disorders of the ANS."Grapestomper9 (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

cranial nerves
Cranial nerve nuclei are PARAsympathetic. i'll try to fix this baby up later.
 * Nice work, get that baby repaired Vokesk (talk) 19:45, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Enteric system intro
I don't know much about the enteric system, having only dealt with the interaction of the para/symp branches. If someone could put a sentence or so into the intro paragraph about it, that would be good. However, if it's c onsidered a subcomponent of the symp or para branches then maybe it should be mentioned in a more detailed section, instead. 165.95.15.253 21:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC) TS

"if it's considered a subcomponent of the symp or para branches". No it is not. Defining the ANS as being made of two limbs, parasympathetic and sympathetic, is classical textbook stuff, straight from the fifties or even the twenties, but simplistic in many ways, for the reason just said (the enteric nervous system is a thing unto itself), but also because it overemphasizes the efferent or motor part (historically highlighted because it was the only one identified by the inventor of the ANS, Langley) at the expense of the afferent or sensory part, which has slowly and painstakingly made its way into the scientific literature and consciousness (the ubiquitous Kandel and Jessel textbook only introduced it in their prior to last (3rd?) revision). Sensing oxygen or carbon dioxyde is definitely "autonomic" but neither sympathetic nor parasympathetic. [NB: I wrote the introduction (a completely rewrite of the original one) presently modified to a great extent, but I will abstain from modifying the modifications, it is just too much work at the risk of being largely undone a few months later. This said, I reckon that the revised paragraph is less verbose, maybe more accessible to the lay public, and certainly by a native English speaker, which I am not.] [NB#2 even though I dutifully log in before writing here, my identity or that of my computer somehow never appears automatically. Sorry about that] JayFBee.


 * I found it useful to insert a reference to the enteric system in a note of the intro and in "see also" section. This is not to add anything to the debate on whether enteric system is part of autonomic system or not, but just to show that there is a specific voice on that. --Vbrm (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I made a minor change to the intro paragraph. I emphasised the control system aspect of the ANS, and laid out a more thorough organization of the ANS at the end of the paragraph. I think JayFBee will find that more to his liking. This page has more detailed sections for the sensory and motor parts, broken into para/symp, but there is no detailed section on the enteric system. Adding that would be useful simply for consistency sake. However those topics have other pages on Wikipedia which go into them in more detail, so the question is how much detail should be on this page as opposed to pages specifically for those subsystems? As always if you disagree with any of my changes, the page's edit history contains the complete history and you can go back to any prior revision and reinsert parts you want to keep into the current page. No contribution is ever permanently lost. I'm not a doctor, nor do I have any special authority over this page. You may not agree with edits I (or others) make but that shouldn't discourage you from continuing to discuss and contribute. If something was removed that you really liked, try to see if you can address any problems with it. 165.95.15.253 19:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC) TS

Suggest redirect to the forest and leave the trees alone. Sympathetic and parasympathetic influence are antiquated but trusted terms in description of myocardial performance. Parasympathetic influence of the myocardium represents combined electrical and mechanical backflow (depolarization)from vagal and thoracic spinal accessory ganglia. Diastole is not a relaxation phase(see Windkessel/peripheral resistance articles). Physiologic description of diastolic heart failure remains elusive but close. --Lbeben (talk) 02:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The definition contradicts itself.
If voluntary decisions (as shown in the Benjamin Libet experiment among others) is an illusion anyway, then there can be no division into "voluntary" and "autonomical", so the whole term "autonomical nervous system" is misframed. Then it is the making up of afterconstructs that limits what is "voluntary". This explains why extreme recoveries after brain damage and other cases of extreme neuroplasticity are linked to tolerant environments (as shown by Kurt Fischer and Christina Hinton in "Mind, Brain and Education" and by Norman Doidge in "The brain that changes itself") which does not create pressure to justify one's actions, as well as why techniques for will-based change of "autonomical" functions invariably come from cultures that do not believe in pure good and pure evil and never from, say, abrahamitic cultures (their belief in pure good and pure evil creates strong pressure to justify one's actions). See the articles "Moderating the free will debate" and "Brain" on topic page "Psychology" and the topic page "Advice of ways to stop justifying" at Pure science Wiki 109.58.104.194 (talk) 09:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why the strict definition of the autonomic nervous system is entirely anatomical, rather than functional. Jänig describes in the first chapter of his textbook on "The Integrative Action of the Autonomic Nervous System" "The definition of the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous systems is based on the specialized neuroanatomical arrangement of the autonomic outflow from the central nervous system to the peripheral target tissues ..."

- W. Jänig


 * going on to the describe that the parasympathetic involves tectal, bulbar and sacral outflows, while the sympathetic outflow is thoracolumbar. This formal definition fits well with the more well-known functional characterizations, but is not determined by function. Klbrain (talk) 11:41, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

First sentence (definition)
As is consistent with my prior understanding, the first sentence states that the ANS is a division of the PNS. However, the article GABAb receptor states, "GABAB receptors are found in the central and peripheral autonomic nervous system." A cursory review of literature has produced a few usages of the term "central autonomic nervous system" in the context of CNS areas that regulate the autonomic portion of the peripheral nervous system. Does such a central autonomic nervous system exist, or could the GABAb article's wording benefit from clarification?
 * The second alternative, there is no central autonomic nervous system, therefor peripheral autonomic nervous system is a tautology. CFCF  (talk · contribs · email) 20:40, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The phrasing of the GABAB lede has been changed to reflect the intended meaning there; that the GABABB receptors are found in the 'CNS, and the autonomic part of the peripheral nervous system'. Klbrain (talk) 11:19, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Every textbook that I have seen describes the ANS as a part of the PNS. Looie496 (talk) 13:38, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Absolutely agree, Looie496. ANS plus the somatic nervous system constitute the PNS. The specific point being made is that there is no evidence for GABAB receptors in the somatic nervous system; I agree that it would also be fine to say just "CNS and the autonomic nervous system", but that would change the emphasis - the point on the GABAB page was to emphasize that those receptors aren't just found in the brain. Klbrain (talk) 18:23, 8 October 2017 (UTC)