Talk:Ava Max/Archive 1

Notable already?
Her song "Sweet But Psycho" is #15 on the Swedish singles chart this week. I'll expand this article soon unless someone else does it first.-- N Ø  18:48, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Singles?
I found two songs on Max's channel Not Your Barbie Girl and Salt. However, no sources (reliable or unreliable) reported about them, and there's no way to currently determine if they were single or promotional singles so they are excluded from the discography section for now.-- N Ø  15:04, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2018
Change: "Amanda Ava Koci (born February 16, 1994) is an Albanian singer of Kosovar descent, best known by her stage name Ava Max." To: "Amanda Ava Koci (born February 16, 1994) is an Albanian singer of Albanian descent, best known by her stage name Ava Max."

OR

To: "Amanda Ava Koci (born February 16, 1994) is an Albanian singer, best known by her stage name Ava Max."

Birth year
This is an unofficial request for comment. Should we go with 1993 or 1994 as the birth year? The closest thing to a reliable source that has reported on her birth is AllMusic and they went with 1994. The only reason I've reverted it back to 1993 is because people who kept changing it to 1994 did not cite a source. Discuss it here.-- N Ø  12:03, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Telegraph confirms she is 25.(1993 birth date)-- N Ø  08:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * AllMusic is a poor source to rely upon.
 * What exactly does the Telegraph article say, as I can't access it? --Ronz (talk) 03:08, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * AllMusic is the only source to give a full birthday I think, Telegraph just says she’s 25.— N Ø  06:57, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I've searched quite a bit now and haven't found anything that looks authoritative. I'm not finding anything from her (social media, interviews, etc.) that would help. It does look like 25 is correct from public records searches, but I didn't find anything that we can actually use as a reference. It may be best to leave it out until there are better references to use. --Ronz (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I've added some references to capture said info. Tinton5 (talk) 03:34, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Please explain clearly how the sources do so. I'm not finding verification for the year. --Ronz (talk) 03:50, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Footnote # 3, The Vanity Fair article clearly states 1994 as the year, if you scroll down a little less than halfway or so on that page. The Twitter source provides the day she posted. Tinton5 (talk) 05:20, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for what I hope will bring an end to the edit-warring. --Ronz (talk) 05:26, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Slippin ain't a single y'all
It was solely released on Soundcloud. Not available for purchase or on streaming platforms.  ×°˜`°× ηαη¢у  ×°˜`°×  23:32, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I was the one who originally added it as a single and I agree with you, it's not being promoted as a single or pushed on radio. But the problem is that three sources have called it a single, so its a Can't Dance/Real Friends type of situation where we will need Max or someone from Atlantic records to tweet that Slippin isn't a single, or at least that SBP is her second single. The funny thing is Can't Dance isn't a single either, but we're forced to label it as such because a writer at Idolator messed up and accidentally called it a single in one article.-- N Ø  12:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Nowadays there's a very vague definition of 'single', sources seem to call any released track that isn't part of an album yet a single. Can't Dance and Real Friends got released digitally and on streaming platforms, whereas Slippin, only available on SoundCloud, is blatantly some track made available for free for the fans.  ×°˜`°× ηαη¢у  ×°˜`°×  13:44, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Koçi not Koci
Please change "Amanda Ava Koçi, known professionally as Ava Max, is an American singer and songwriter." to "Amanda Ava Koci, known professionally as Ava Max, is an American singer and songwriter." because her legal last name is spelled "Koci" not "Koçi" Dml407 (talk) 00:08, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems to be correct from all the refs, so done. --Ronz (talk) 04:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Soundcloud releases
The random soundcloud “releases” I removed in the last 3 edits should not be added back unless Ava or a reliable source acknowledges them. A random leaker called ctrclub uploading them on Souncloud isn’t proof they’re actual releases by Ava.— N Ø  17:28, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Ava acknowledged one of those songs titled "Satellite" in early March. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdYCS4ylaJY&feature=youtu.be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.123.239.88 (talk) 06:48, 26 March 2019 (UTC) Satellite was also found on the producers website, embedded in a soundcloud widget. The 2013 version of Take Away the Pain can also be found embedded on the site. http://www.fritzjerey.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.123.239.88 (talk) 06:51, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I’m afraid we would need more reliable sources than websites of struggling producers who may be trying to promote themselves by posting fake Ava demos on their websites. If there’s no proof that these songs were officially released, then they have no business being mentioned on a Wikipedia article.— N Ø  07:15, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:51, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
 * AvaMax.jpg

How long has Ava been active?
The "Career" section goes back to 2013 and states that Ava released a song titled "Take Away the Pain" in that year, and that it was remixed by Project 46 two years later. However, the infobox inconsistently states she has been active since 2008 and cites two sources. One is a MySpace page titled Amanda Kay Music and the other is a video uploaded by a YouTube channel titled Ava Koci with the cover art of the aforementioned "Take Away the Pain" as its profile picture in 2009 and featuring a girl covering "Halo" by Beyoncé.

How can we be sure she and Ava are the same person? Firstly, Ava has never mentioned this AFAIK. Secondly, the video quality is somewhat grainy to the point where the girl's face is barely visible, but from what we can see she bears little resemblance to Ava, as does the girl on the "Take Away the Pain" cover art. She could very well be Ava, but there's also a chance she's a completely different person with a similar name. The only evidence I have that they're the same person is that the description of the video states she was a sophomore in high school at the time of filming (Ava was 15 when the video was uploaded). What do you think?--Vaporgaze (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * We should accurately note 2013 as the beginning of her professional music career. Uploading a cover on YouTube, which was recorded in her living room, isn’t relevant to her career as a studio recording artist.—NØ 18:20, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

For now, I have edited the infobox so it states she has been active since 2013 rather than 2008, but I still haven't seen any evidence that the Ava who recorded "Take Away the Pain" and Ava Max are the same person.--Vaporgaze (talk) 11:33, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Profound
This article notes that her parents are "Albanian immigrants from Albania." Where else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.91.48.16 (talk) 13:00, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I too find this wording unacceptable and proceeded with deleting the phrase "from Albania". Kou  Dou 04:23, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The sentence originally read "Albanian immigrants from Tirana and Sarandë" (the cities in Albania her parents are from). This was changed for some unknown reason (the cities are sourced right there), so I have added it back. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 05:18, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Although I agree that ‘from Tirana and Sarandë’ is fine, I have to mention that when I added ‘from Albania’ back into the article recently, I did actually state a reason; it wasn’t without logic. If you did not know, Albanians aren’t solely found as a majority in Albania. They constitute roughly 90% of Kosovo’s population and 25% of North Macedonia’s. Therefore, Albanians do not necessarily need to be from Albania specifically. ArbDardh (talk) 19:54, 31 July 2019 (UTC)ArbDardh

Surname
I would like to request an edit to her surname, it being Koçi instead of Koci. As an Albanian myself, I can confirm that only the former exists. The references all^ refer to her surname being Koci, but I must note that diacritics (in this case the cedilla) are often, if not most of the time left out in [English-language-using] media.

^The only Albanian source (website that focuses on Albanians / news in Albania/Kosovo) used in the article, reference 1, indeed uses ‘Koçi’. ArbDardh (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
 * From a quick skim of reliable sources, it appears "Koci" is correct. Please indicate what sources say otherwise. --Ronz (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Since 'Koci'/Koçi are Albanian surnames, I will refer to Albanian media outlets. Here’s a short list of some sites which I quickly managed to conjure up that use Koçi (Koçi respectably outnumbered Koci):


 * [|Source 1]
 * [|Source 2]
 * [|Source 3]
 * [|Source 4]
 * [|Source 5]
 * Truth be told, there’s no way to definitely prove that it’s Koçi as opposed to Koci unless one were to ask her themself. If it is preferred, therefore, to simply leave it as it is then I wouldn’t have much of a problem with that. ArbDardh (talk) 16:35, 1 August 2019 (UTC)ArbDardh
 * It looks to me that the Albanian media is taking some liberties for publicity, but I don't want rely upon auto-translate to determine this.
 * After some brief searches, I'm not finding legal records that we could use as a supporting reference. --Ronz (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

"Blood, Sweat & Tears" and "FMO"
Ava Max stated in an interview that she will release two promotional singles at the end of July, followed by her official single in August. The sources currently cited also do not support them being labelled as singles. So I'll be moving them to the promo singles section.—NØ 16:10, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I mean, the Soundcloud track Slippin' is also listed as a single despite being a track given for free...  ×°˜`°× ηαη¢у  ×°˜`°×  23:22, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * ...Well, because three sources call it a single. And there’s also this which clearly lists SBP as her third single, implying Slippin' was one. Regardless, please don’t use the two new songs which are clearly just promotional singles to make a WP:POINT. She explained very clearly in her MTV interview that the two new songs are not singles, I just can’t find a link to it.—NØ 00:59, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Good sense suggests that it was not a single, because in no ways did it get single treatment - it wasn't even released commercially.  ×°˜`°× ηαη¢у  ×°˜`°×  10:00, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Vanity Fair calls Not Your Barbie Girl and Salt singles, shall we add them too?  ×°˜`°×  ηαη¢у  ×°˜`°×  10:01, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Nope. Vanity Fair calls them "one-off singles", which is synonymous with buzz singles. The definition of the "single treatment" is subjective. So we defer to secondary sources, of which clearly several call "Slippin'" a single.—<b style="color:purple">N</b><b style="color:teal">Ø</b> 10:33, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The definition of single treatment includes commercial release, and this is not subjective. Slippin was uploaded for free on a music sharing app.  ×°˜`°× ηαη¢у  ×°˜`°×  13:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Four sources disagree with what you're saying, so it very much is subjective. Regardless, "Slippin'" is available for streaming on YouTube and Soundcloud. Digital sales are dying, so being available only for streaming definitely counts as a "commerical release" too. It seems like nothing is going to change your mind so I'll refrain from engaging this conversation further. Sources and editors (who have reverted your removal of "Slippin'" in the past) agree it's a single.--<b style="color:purple">N</b><b style="color:teal">Ø</b> 14:38, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You can upload anything on YouTube and Soundcloud, unlike the main streaming services Spotify and Apple Music, and even with digital sales dying, every new release goes on digital retailers. Considering Slippin' a single is just factually incorrect.  ×°˜`°× ηαη¢у  ×°˜`°×  19:38, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Salt - Officially a single from December 12, 2019 (previously a promotional single)
I agree "Salt" was a promo single, however, it's now received an official release. I believe the following ought to be included into her article. >

On December 12, 2019, Max officially released "Salt"; a track Max had posted on YouTube and SoundCloud in 2018. Tobyjamesaus (talk) 02:15, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

"The Exhibitionist" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The Exhibitionist. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Vaporgaze (talk) 10:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

"The Exhibitionist (album)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The Exhibitionist (album). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Vaporgaze (talk) 10:33, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

"The Exhibitionist (Ava Max album)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The Exhibitionist (Ava Max album). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Vaporgaze (talk) 10:34, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Sweet But Psycho is the only album track, Tabú is now on an EP with the same name
In a new interview Ava confirmed that Sweet But Psycho will be the only song she has released so far that will be on the album, so I am requesting that all of her other singles and promo singles be listed as non album singles. In addition, Pablo Alborán released a "Tabú - EP" which the song is on so I was wondering if that could also be listed. I don't really know how to use wiki so if someone else could do this, that would be appreciated. EDIT March 8, 2020: Who changed it back??? Literally go to the link she literally said that Sweet But Psycho is the only song on the album, change the others back to non-album singles!

New Picture?
I think the picture of her is rather unflattering.. Anyone have an idea for a better picture which could be used in its place? AmericannIdiot (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Only free use content is allowed on Wikipedia, which is why most images uploaded are taken by fans or professional photographers with consent. As Max begins touring and doing media interviews, there is a higher chance that new images will be uploaded, which will be updated in the infobox. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 06:45, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Her Instagram pics are free use though, yes? AmericannIdiot (talk) 01:13, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The images from Max's Instagram account are all either owned by Max herself, or by her photographers, which would therefore conflict with Wikipedia's copyright policy. Images that are not free have to undergo a ten-step guideline, which would only be justified with these criterion. Unless there is a major exception that would require the use of non-free use content, the files uploaded on Commons are the only acceptable images on this article. – Angryjoe1111 (talk) 11:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2020
2402:800:6371:B59:94A2:E7BA:C6D8:C574 (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2020
Change: "In May 2018, 'Slippin', a collaboration with Gashi, was released as a single." To: "In May 2018, 'Slippin', a collaboration with Gashi, was released to SoundCloud."

Change: "Max's third single 'Sweet but Psycho' was released on August 17, 2018." To: "Max's first single 'Sweet but Psycho' was released on August 17, 2018."

I agree with your edit in the Discography section. In a 2019 interview, Max said that she would release her third single "in August or September" of that year. That single was "Torn", which was released in August. She basically just called "Torn" her third single, which makes "Sweet but Psycho" her first single and "So Am I" her second single.

Also, the Project 46 song "Take Away the Pain" featuring Max as "Ava Koci", not "AVA", is from their album Beautiful; it is not a non-album single. So if someone could change that too, that would be appreciated. 140.161.84.35 (talk) 16:48, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 20:49, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:36, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ava Max Billboard.jpg

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2020
Kings and Queens charted at number 9 in Norway. 199.7.159.79 (talk) 13:51, 4 April 2020 (UTC)


 * ❌. That's nice, but it doesn't indicate the change you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 14:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2020
Change Norway peak for "Kings and Queens" from 11 to 9. 199.7.159.79 (talk) 15:09, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Thank you for citing your sources. &#123;&#123;replyto&#125;&#125; Can I Log In's (talk) page 16:40, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

April 2020
I do not like it that keeps changing TBA to TableTBA. It is not fair for the user. Neel.arunabh (talk) 22:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * As already explained on your talk page yesterday, which you conveniently decided to stop conversing at, TableTBA is built specifically for tables where background shading, provided by templates such as "n/a," is not required, whereas TBA is built for comparison tables. Simply because you see the latter template on other pages does not mean that it is acceptable use, and that argument is not valid. This is also not about what you specifically like or don't like; Wikipedia is neutral and not personal.  livelikemusic    talk!  22:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Discography Page
Is she notable enough for the Discography to be a separate article, this page is an eyesore. smartalek22 (talk) 01:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

"Max Cut" critique
I suppose WP:RS might differ with me in calling the right side a "bob" but a true "bob cut" for flappers in the Jazz Age was much shorter: it was chin-length at most. I can't see how Max's shoulder-length right-side haircut can qualify as a bob, since one of its defining characteristics is that short length. Max certainly has much longer hair on the left. And I believe another defining feature of the Jazz Age bob is the straight bangs, which, again, Max lacks. Elizium23 (talk) 07:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So I looked at at least 3 reliable sources and they all say it's a "bob". So I guess MTV knows ladies' hair better than me - not surprised. Elizium23 (talk) 15:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)