Talk:Avatar's Abode/Archive 1

picture
The scenic picture will be changed. Its not the view from the Abode. I am going up there soon and will add some pics of inside the room too. Anyone got any references for the petition? No-More-Religion (talk) 10:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Google map image
this image should be Ok according to google maps use of image policy where attribution is required

--No-More-Religion (talk) 22:17, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

query vandalism by user babaislove
a user created to edit just this page...vandalism? New editor ? will be reverted. User still active --No-More-Religion (talk) 08:56, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Just looked at depth into this, serious changes, bordering on vandalism as heavy POV and no references. The article now has no references and may be taken down as it stands. User was reverted twice, but I didnt check here for a week. Will do a manual revert to Aleksa Lukic revert. Thank you Aleksa Lukic for trying to save it. I will watch closer. cant undo, too many edits --No-More-Religion (talk) 09:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Non talking before huge edits
you cant just change an entire article with out talking.Discuss this. Do you want the entire article deleted? It may be in teh state you leave it. Its not good what u r doing last warning. You have several on your talk page--No-More-Religion (talk) 09:55, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

BabaisLove Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did at Avatar's Abode, you may be blocked from editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by No-More-Religion (talk • contribs) 10:44, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes forgot to sign the above in my surprise at such huge content deletion, probably a bit tired also --No-More-Religion (talk) 21:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Talking before Edits
Hi BabaisLove. HoverfFish has given very good advice on your talk page. I am open certainly to making the article better, more accurate, which is my intent. articles do evolve sometimes significantly e.g Meher Baba. This one was fairly sparse recently. I added two pictures I took up there, and some text and references. As for any conclusions I have reached, I believe they are reasonable and middle of the road, but I am open to dialogue. The article needs some work on the current status section. maybe you can get some recent documents from your trust contacts? . Please bear in mind Wikipedia is not a tourist brochure, its an encyclopedia. References are a must. The referenced parts I wrote occurred, some of what I wrote are the reasonable conclusions between the previous referenced material. I understand people may be upset by this, but I reiterate its an encyclopedia, its not the Avatars Abode Trust info site. I'm surprised you reverted last night after being asked to discuss edits. I went live online to get some advice. what you were doing looked like vandalism, it happens on Wikipedia and is a problem, and you had been reverted twice already. So last night was three. That's a threshold. but Glad we got this sorted and you will now talk here about edits - --No-More-Religion (talk) 22:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

PS I think I heard you archived Francis Brabazons collection of books, perhaps you can find some reliable references for his page and his place in this article. Overall anything Francis needs some reference work, I think from memory its just a single web site --No-More-Religion (talk) 22:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Position on Petition
Recently I was told by an Avatars Abode trustee the reasons for the petition was 99 to 1 and Black and white. I have this in an email. This is clearly POV. The petition happened, it has a reference, and is historically important for a number of reasons, chiefly because Baba was so emphatic about Bills role with Avatars Abode, the quotes are compelling and from Bhau in Lord Meher, THE premier reference for Baba. Bhau said to me last month about some question I had, 'speak to the chairman Bill Le Page, hes in charge, he has a good memory'. I have this email. So if the history is upsetting to some to read, is that a reason to sanitize it? WW2 was upsetting also. Life can be upsetting. But is that a reason to make this page more suitable just for some who dont want to read it for some personal reason i dont know about? (UTC) HumusTheCowboy (talk) 00:29, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

BabaisLove have you checked out Bill Le Page ? --No-More-Religion (talk) 02:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Concerning Bhau and Bills right to be on this page. Not only is he mentioned in Lord Meher with Avatars Abode and Australia by Baba in a most intimate manner, and has significant history with it AA, there is this from Bhau last month in an email to me: "Bill and XXXX are the jewels from Baba’s time. Jewels don’t change, because though Baba is physically not present, He is always present internally. He is with you.” Please do not just try to wipe Bill out from this page. Its unreasonable. From a Neutral standpoint, he is part of AA's past and present. To all other non Baba readers Bhau kalchuri is the mail reference on the page Meher Baba and is a close Mnadali of Baba's --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 22:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Expansion of sections
These could be expanded to include all the sincere work achieved by stalwarts Reg Paffle, and also other volunteers and the caretaker --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 07:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Notes added
These are like the ones on Meher Babas page. Its not a major edit but an enhancement, whereby web site references are made tidier and notes from them can be added without cluttering up the reference list. Reference list still exists with this method. --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Bill Le Page
Concerning Bhau Kalchuri and Bills right to be on this page. Not only is Bill mentioned in Lord Meher with Avatars Abode and Australia by Baba in 'the' most intimate manner, (see Bill Le Page article please for Lord Meher quotes) Le Page has significant sustained and ongoing history with Avatars Abode, e.g. principal benefactor for 20 odd years and being chairman of its trust since perhaps forever, (check needed) certainly for close to 38 years. There is also this from Bhau last month in an email to me (email can be requested): "Bill and XXXX (name X' ed out)are jewels from Baba’s time. Jewels don’t change, because though Baba is physically not present, He is always present internally. He is with you.” So as a start point for collaborative editing I am asking that you Please do not just try to wipe Bill out from this page. Its unreasonable. Its POV if it is done. From a Neutral standpoint, he is part of AA's past and present and that can be referenced at the highest level. please consider reading his newly created page before editing here: @ Bill Le Page. To all other non Baba readers Bhau Kalchuri is close mandali, wrote an extensive Meher Baba history called Lord Meher, its online, and is THE main reference on the page Meher Baba. Bhau is chairman of the Meher Baba Charitable Trust in India.--HumusTheCowboy (talk) 23:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Adding or subtracting people
Don't know why there is fretting over this. I never suggested Bill or anyone else has to be deleted from AA history. I just noted that it's hard to draw the line on who to include or not include (HumusCowboy, you already mentioned Reg for example..) That's why I tried to develop something more general. As it is, due to criticisms from so many Aussies (including Bill), David Fenster (who wrote the Lord Meher bits with Bhau in the first place) has been re-working and correcting the content on AA history - David told me a while back it should be online soon (maybe already?) You'll find it's a book in itself, including lots more folk and their specific memories. As for using sources outside of Lord Meher, I think that's totally reasonable. There are eyewitness accounts of the early AA history in Meher Baba Journal, GLow and even early Meher Baba Australia (the newsletter) by the likes of Francis, Ena Lemmon, Diana Snow and others. There's also John Grant's work and several others that go into all this, so I think it's quite achievable. I've a stack of sources from when I wrote Meher Baba's Australian Travels that we could use. I just need to get onto it... BabaisLoveRayCK 06:41, 23 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BabaisLove (talk • contribs)

A technical point: If these sources you mention go online in the form of a blog, they will be removed as invalid references by anyone, including bots (automatically). On the other hand, if these documents are published in the official page of Avatar's Abode, they can be considered valid to support the information here. Hoverfish Talk 15:25, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @BabaisLove: Please, when you sign your comments, do not type in the name and date, but simply type four tiddles ( ~ ) or click on the four tiddles that appear under the comments text editor so that they get inserted at your cursor position. Thanks. Hoverfish Talk 15:34, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the advise. Some of the items are already published and in several libraries. I'll try now the signaturing. RayCK 12:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BabaisLove (talk • contribs)

BabaisLove on your revision dated 'Revision as of 03:18, 19 March 2012' you completely removed all mention of Bill Le Page. And again on Revision as of 09:49, 21 March 2012. Thats why I mentioned it. Ok moving on. It would be good to have some reliable references to expand some of the history, esp the 70's to 90's, but the reliability criteria for refs is reasonably firm. Was there is there an official published history? --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 06:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Humus. Yes in the first edit I removed Bill and was toying with the idea of removing Francis as well (Bill used to say to me it's best Baba articles aren't focussed on giving details on personalities but rather details on Baba), but that created the problem of explaining how the property was found and purchased in the first place - though maybe for a summary like this, the absence of all names could work. Re/ verifiable histories of the 70s to 90s, I wrote the 50th Anniversary booklet that did just that (did you see it?) and also covered bits of that history (at least in terms of the history of use of buildings) in Meher Baba's Australian Travels. But there are plenty of other items - e.g. lots of quite neutral histories in Meher Baba Australia. I think it just needs sewing together. RayCK 12:03, 24 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BabaisLove (talk • contribs)

Hi BabaisLove ( is BiL the acronym acceptable?) yes I like the idea of no names, something pure about it, but its not going to work for two, no three  reasons. 1/ Linkages to other wiki pages ie Francis Brabazon Wiki is great because of linkages and importantly 2/ its an encyclopedia. In encyclopedia's names are given in articles like AA because it was made by human endeavour and the names make sense of the history. Francis and Bill are the two key ones. No BiL we must have names, and if the names are there we must be neutral and present what happened without POV. Reason 3/ we cant not have this name Meher baba --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 23:02, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * re I wrote the 50th Anniversary booklet BiL this wont be an acceptable reference HumusTheCowboy (talk) 01:43, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Tweaks
The article needs some additional material in 'Development' and 'Status today' sections. Any issues with adding some? I cleaned up Founding and transition sections today and added refs to enhance the flow of narrative --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 08:39, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Mention of names
To include a simple history mentioning Francis, Bill and maybe a couple more main figures should not be a problem and offers some knowledge to the reader. Links to existing articles are also helpful. But getting into so many management issues can be avoided without reducing the value of the article, a so that neutral point of view and tone is reached. Hoverfish Talk 18:26, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Agree, now that Francis and Bill both have pages its better. I'm waiting for BiL to engage, or a few days go by, before i edit too much --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 05:58, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Eruch Jessawala
Eruch was alive well and cognizant when Bill Le Page wrote his book The Turning of the Key, 1993. Eruch Jessawala saw this book and met the author many times in the 1990's. He did not refute whats in it. Here is a quote from the book. Eruch speaking to Bill about Avatars Abode 'I know Baba has given the responsibility to you. It went to Francis and from Francis to you' - The Turning of the Key, p 300. In summing up, Eruch was for some democracy but not he says 'not every Tom Dick and Harry should have their say, that would be impossible', he says the policy must be determined by 'The Foundation'. He described this as a benevolent Dictatorship. (p 300 - 301) I put this here as background for edit rationale re neutrality, as Chs59 has questioned the neutrality of the article. there is no doubt Bill is a key figure in AA history and present. The petition is also verifiable history --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 01:13, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

New Picture
Francis and Bill with Baba --HumusTheCowboy (talk) 01:36, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Avatars Abode article
conversation moved to this page from babaislove talk page as suggested, by Hoverfish. Its getting very difficult to follow this thread in three places which is leading to confusion. It belongs here for clarity's sake and has been done chronologically. Babaislove please post AA threads here--HumusTheCowboy (talk) 21:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I recently looked at AA site and all my talk with you seems deleted. I can't even pull up by 'BabaisLove' stuff. You seem to have modified, edited and censored much of the talk suggestions I sent you, so that even what I suggested isn't complete! I also see you are adding various refs to support your angle, but I can't see how you jump to some of your conclusions from those refs (I know and have read every document you have quoted here - and much more). Finally, I had thought we agreed the whole point of an AA article was to say (for Baba's sake) something positive and uplifting about His place for the numerous outsiders who read this instead of dwelling on our human error? What will they think of Baba if they read all this? Is the Abode only the sum of our mistakes - nothing more? I had prepared a fully referenced article for you to look at but I see no point, as I don't see any openness or willness to work together here. Good luck and goodbye. RayCK 22:44, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Information.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would ask that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. HumusTheCowboy (talk) 02:13, 8 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Babaislove I read your post on my talk page. Please assume good faith. Please dont make accusations without checking first if they are true. They are not true. I dont understand what you are saying. No talk posts of yours on AA talk have been deleted. Check history. Its all there and No suggestions of yours have been deleted. Where did you post them? What did they say? Also what do you mean by your 'babaislove stuff is gone?' I think your a bit confused and what you mean are the posts on your talk page which are of course still here. But as Hoverfish pointed out thats the wrong place. Post on the AA talk page there for anything AA. That is the place. Babaislove Wikipedia takes a bit of learning, I know. But history shows all movement. I checked history, there are no deletions of your suggestions. Assume good faith first please. BTW sign off on all your posts. Your welcome to contribute on AA. Like me use the talk page first before edits. You have not been there for some time now, since march 24th, read the talk page there for edit rationales. If you dont get involved you should not accuse someone of not being open and unwilling. This is bordering on a personal attack. As for interpretations, I think they are neutral and fair. If you have any new referenced material for a different perspective we could talk about it, there. As for what people will think of Baba, thats not our job to determine surely. What I wrote is neutral and is referenced, it also happened HumusTheCowboy (talk) 03:18, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Civility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility#No_personal_attacks_or_harassment HumusTheCowboy (talk) 09:11, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Is this the correct place to comment? Hope so.


 * What I mean is that I put in various comments that once were visible but now seem not to be. Moreover, the bits I can see seem significantly shortened where they now appear in Wikkapedia, with bits and names deleted etc. Where is the full text located now?


 * Additionally, I mean that not a single piece of my original additions has been re-instated in the AA article, whereas you have re-instated all your own material, apparently unaffected by any of the suggestions in our talk discussions, which you said you'd consider. I had understood that the article could have several contributors, but you seem to imply that you alone will decide what is to be included, after duly considering whatever is offered in the talk pages. Indeed, from what I can see, all that occured from of our talk discussions was a set of comments and references whereby you justify/ solidify your own interpretations. I could likewise if necessary put up verifiable references for counter-arguments, and we could go on and on with this weighing up of the various sides of the argument for quite a long time if you wish, but I had understood we were about to concentrate on achieving an article that would be informative, uplifting and positive?


 * I also feel you may have missed the point I was trying to make. I have not been arguing that no verifiable references exist for the interpretations you offer, or that these events did not occur, but rather asking we reconsider the overall approach that the article takes. For example, the approach of presenting a particular stance as a "neutral" view, when insiders such as you and I are well aware that there are other very strong points of view on the matters raised, is in my understanding provocative and perhaps dishonest to the less-informed reader. The silence of others does not necessarily mean they have no opinion on the topic, or no documentary evidence to back up their position, but simply that they don't wish to enter an argument or start a fight.


 * In my discussions with many Baba folk over the years around the Abode (including Bill), the dominant urge now is to move on - to forgive and forget. Every human institute has its sad history of imperfection, and Avatar's Abode is no exception, but there is so much that we can celebrate about this special place rather than pointing out where things went wrong.


 * Re/ overall approach, I think some of what you write is flawed in that you draw some rather broad inferences from your quotes. For example, you suggest AA has not achieved what it should have, because it currently has limited accomodation. However, many people who witnessed Baba at the Abode remember Him saying: "when I come again in 700 years, this will be a place of world pilgrimage." I think this gives a rather different perspective what has been achieved to date. Similarly, as I pointed out in what you deleted of my original additions, Baba continually changed His instructions about the Abode, according to what was necessary (e.g. moving the property-development from Francis to Bill in 1967). As Eruch said, Baba was very practical. I could give you quotes wherein Baba warned against making rules or starting practices simply because at one point in time He instructed A or B. What this means is that it may be speculative to imply that some documents were meant to represent Baba's wishes for all time. For example, did you know at one point Baba wanted to entirely close down the Abode because certain factions were not speaking to each other? I have seen the actual correspondence from Baba. If we took His wish at that point as being mandatory, then we should close down the Abode. However, the two factions (to their credit) became firm friends. I'm not aware of what Baba instructed after that. Indeed, only they know.


 * This brings me to a very important point: neither you nor I are privvy to all that was given by Baba and His mandali on this and other matters pertaining to the Abode. We thus lack sufficient knowledge to write anything too definative about that realm. For example, it may be a bit of a leap to imply that because Baba or Eurch at one point wanted 5 Trustees, then it was an unnecessary "ballooning" to increase those numbers.


 * As I said, I have created a referenced article, at the request of several Baba lovers connected with Avatar's Abode. Bill is currently looking at this. It includes mention of Bill and Francis. He has been asked by other Baba lovers to write for Wikapedia on Avatar's Abode. In my understanding even the Trust is supporting this. I hope, given your familiarity with Wikapedia, you will be able to assist with these efforts.
 * RayCK 14:50, 7 April 2012 (UTC) (is this the right way to sign?)


 * @ Babaislove. I thought you had left for good!  Good luck and goodbye.. OK. It was not the correct place to comment. This is the place as you have been told a few times now. I dont know why you dont post here when both HF and I have asked you to. It creates extra work. I have cut and pasted the thread here in chronological order for the clarity of other editors. Your post is long so I will have to answer in segments. BTW re read Hoverfish's explanation of your talk page on how to sign off. Can you put some hours in please and learn about how to edit and post and read the five Pillars and well everything. Thanks


 * You wrote this initially I recently looked at AA site and all my talk with you seems deleted.. Now talk means the talk page. But now you recently posted this What I mean is that I put in various comments that once were visible but now seem not to be .  I think, you mean your text in the article. This makes more sense but also is a bit disturbing because it shows you dont understand what you did to the article by making wholesale content deletions


 * You were reverted twice by other editors twice because of large scale content deletions and once by me. Now it appears you want the material back. Can you please put some time in and read the introduction box Hoverfish put on your talk page.


 * To engage in edit discussions you need to be here, talking, you have not been. Please read the above threads. The article is under threat if it is not up to standard. Your version you wrote of the article qualified the whole article for 'speedy deletion'


 * I added references to make the article up to standard. Feel free to put up verifiable references for counter-arguments. I suggest you look up verifiable and RS references first


 * re neutral view. Where different views exist, both can be presented. This happens all the time on Wikipedia. But it needs to be verifiable and reliable source. For example. This is not verifiable with a reliable source. (from your post above). However, many people who witnessed Baba at the Abode remember Him saying:'when I come again in 700 years, this will be a place of world pilgrimage' , I could be wrong. Do you have a relaible verifiable reference?


 * re neither you nor I are privvy to all that was given by Baba and His mandali on this and other matters pertaining to the Abode. We thus lack sufficient knowledge to write anything too definative about that realm Its all relative. We write what is verifiable and reliable. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.


 * re As I said, I have created a referenced article, at the request of several Baba lovers connected with Avatar's Abode You never mentioned this before. Well lets see what happens and how the editing progresses from whats already there.


 * re at the request of several Baba lovers connected with Avatar's Abode. This is a problem. This is an agenda. Suspecting this I asked on your talk page "in what capacity are you here?" Hoverfish answered: This is only one acceptable answer in Wikipedia: we are here as users (or editors). Our real world degrees and positions should play no role in our edits.


 * Babaislove an agenda is not how editing is done in Wikipedia. Im not happy you are editing for others. This can lead to meatpuppetry. On the basis of this Im asking you not to edit from an agenda. HumusTheCowboy (talk) 22:31, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Concerned
Bil Im concerned you may do wholesale content deletions again. You have made three large content deletion disruptive edits now. I really dont know what you may attempt. It looked like you had gone, then came a long post and news of an article you have written. Just in case you think about large deletions there is an in between edit vandalism warning on your talk page. Im sorry its come to this, but there are many little signs you dont understand the process. Its for your own sake to prevent you being banned by not knowing what you did and its also probably a final warning about disruptive editing. HumusTheCowboy (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I am confused here. Are you still discussing about the originally deleted text? This was not really "disruptive" because there was ignorance on basic Wikipedia rules. Or is it about the 25th March edit 1, yet this was not anything massive. Was the warning something recent, and if so for what edit(s)? Thank you. Hoverfish Talk 17:04, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Its about both those and a precautionary warning based on what he said above and back ground noises here on the ground in Queensland. Its not as simple as ignorance based on lack of knowledge, he has a PhD, its about who is pushing him. Who asked him to change the article.(I go into this in the longer reply under the 'Concerned' thread, below.) I had a longer look at the previous changes, they were about 50% content deletion overall and 100% removal of three headings and the writing in the headings and complete removal of Bill Le Pages name. I think BabaisLove is being pressured.

I'm trying to stop a large content deletion and instead reinforce collaborative editing with discussion first. Bear in mind I have had to cut and paste this discussion here in an attempt to engage BiL who has avoided this talk page. I know he is well educated which he has mentioned on Wikipedia and it appears he may be avoiding discussion here because he intends to replace the article with one he has been working on these last two weeks since he was last here.

Bil has written an article. I believe he thinks he can replace the entire article that exists now with the one he has written that has no resemblance to the article that exists now. He will do this rather than building on what is here already. No discussing. This view I have is based on several things. The lack of discussion. Past edits being carried out on behalf of other people (admitted). Two AA trustees who expressed strong dislike of the article to me because it mentions the petition and says AA is not yet a major place of world pilgrimage. I dont believe his inexperience with Wikipedia protocols is as bad as it seems. I thinks its a fair call to BiL to reconsider a possible action he may be thinking of taking. I am all for collaborative editing with discussion here on the talk page starting from what exists now. HumusTheCowboy (talk) 22:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Cut and paste below from BabaisLove talk page to keep this important thread together HumusTheCowboy (talk) 00:03, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO WARNING I just read your other bit on the Warming. Humus, all my references are verifiable, whereas some of the ones you used are not. Have you seen what I gave Bill? Do you think after all the academic work I've done, I don't know how to use verifiable sources? Your concerns are misplaced. Are you now implying you wish to bar me, Bill and others from contributing? How do you allege I did any edits, seeing you removed every single one of them? The whole point of my long response above what that I was surprised that - after what you had indicated - you continued to add and amend the AA article. You seeem concerned that others are involved - why? Are you now the sole authority about Avatar's Abode? RayCK 15:52, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I cant ban you, only actions that an editor does gets a user banned. I have emailed Bill with my concerns about the article. He helped me with the article Bill Le page. He knows you too so my hope is he can temper any excesses and not make this process detract from Baba. As for your references, well lets wait and see, when you discuss on the talk page.

I'm aware one reference I put in has wrong page numbers x 2 in a transcribing error. I'm fixing that next week when I get the book again.

It sounds like you plan to replace the article not build on what is. I believe you are being pushed to edit by others. But it needs to be discussed here first. After all the academic work you have done you have in the recent past pleaded ignorance of Wikipedia protocols. Its hard to believe. Wikipedia is not rocket science. I dont believe you are ignorant of the rules. I believe instead you are acting here for others who are pressuring you to get results. I have been contacted by these others, they are strident and one is vehemently anti Bill. I have the email proof. A complaint has been made to the Trust about this person. The other one came to Wikipedia and made a complaint about the article, and got nowhere. I know who this person is. So do you. You need to consider that their pressure and agenda, your editing style, non engagement and statements are detracting from Baba and airing dirty laundry. It should have been avoided by you engaging edit queries on a section by section basis, but your absence here recently is a loud unwillingness to edit collaboratively.

You have not been to the AA talk page since mar 24th therefore how can I edit with you if you are not there? this voids all your criticism on that topic. The article does not remain in stasis because you dont edit. You dont respond to discussions like this dated 25 Mar 2012

''The article needs some additional material in 'Development' and 'Status today' sections. Any issues with adding some? I cleaned up Founding and transition sections today and added refs to enhance the flow of narrative ''

Babaislove You are just one editor. You are not here acting for rogue elements of the Avatars Abode Trust. If you dont engage here the article moves on.

BabaisLove you said this and it beggars belief How do you allege I did any edits, seeing you removed every single one of them? I removed the third edit, but two other non involved editors removed the previous two. You replaced the entire article and what you put in had no references. Its an automatic revert situation. Its all in edit history. You need to really really consider your responses especially with that user name. BTW you keep avoiding this talk page. Why?=HumusTheCowboy (talk) 22:47, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

BabaisLove
Im posting this here so you will stop denying your edits so that you do not make the same mistakes again. On the 09:48, 21 March 2012‎ BabaisLove you edited the article and left two references only in a 383 word article. This edit was reverted back to 13 references in a 789 word article. You totally removed several sections and Bill Le Page. You did this three times in total. The article currently has 24 references. You have not approached Wikipedia with a willingness to learn the ropes and you still make basic mistakes. Please put some time in to learn how its done. Then engage here on the talk page. Thank You HumusTheCowboy (talk) 23:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

BTW minor edits will continue on the article. The justification will be in the edit history HumusTheCowboy (talk) 23:26, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Potential Additions
Can't again find where this ought to go but I'll try adding it here for your consideration. I had 19 references in this but not one of them is showing. What am I doing wrong? How to I get onto a page where they will show? RayCK 23:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC):

Significance and Use Avatar’s Abode is the oldest continuously-running non-Christian centre in Queensland. It is a focal point in Australia for informing, networking and inspiring persons interested in the life and message of Avatar Meher Baba (1894-1969). To followers of Meher Baba, Avatar’s Abode is valued as the site of Meher Baba’s Australian Sahavas (‘intimate gathering’) in June 1958 – one of the few places Meher Baba visited on this continent. Followers of Meher Baba consider Avatar’s Abode a place to be a place where Meher Baba’s spiritual presence can be especially strongly felt. For this reason, many of them choose to visit here as often as practical. Through Avatar's Abode Trust and the Meher Baba Foundation, Avatar's Abode preserves buildings, documents and items associated with Meher Baba's life and message. It helps distribute information and literature about Meher Baba. Avatar’s Abode consists of bushland areas, forest walks and gardens, buildings used by Meher Baba, structures used for performances, dining and reception, an extensive archives, and some bunk and family accommodation for persons interested in or committed to Meher Baba. Most of the year, Avatar's Abode is a quiet retreat where followers stay, or where persons wishing to learn more about Meher Baba visit. People from all over the world, including close disciples of Meher Baba, stay here from time to time. Annually during the Queen’s Birthday long weekend (June), the centre is venue for the largest gatherings of followers of Meher Baba in Australia. This marks the anniversary of Baba’s visit to the property. The event consists of a range of activities: talks, meals, sports, films and arts - broadly focussed on Meher Baba. Avatar’s Abode is also utilized for other events marking special days associated with Meher Baba's life, and for a variety of meetings and gatherings of followers of Meher Baba.

Maintenance and Governance

Avatar’s Abode is held in perpetuity by a Trust, who undertake the financing and maintenance of the property and its contents. There is usually no designated staff. Each Meher Baba centre is autonomous, and to a large extent, the property relies on the efforts of volunteers and especially on residents Meher Baba permitted to live there. According to personal interest or perceived needs, various social groups or work groups form and dissolve. Landscaping, building, library or preservation projects are conducted by interested individuals, groups or committees – sometimes through Avatar’s Abode Trust, and sometimes not, depending on the nature of the activity.

Origins of Avatar’s Abode The urge to establish a place dedicated Meher Baba in Queensland grew out of a letter from Meher Baba’s sister and disciple, Mani Irani. In 11th January 1958, she wrote to Bill Le Page and the Australian group of follower, indicating that Meher Baba wished to give his Sahavas (company) in Australia at one place only, and that Baba would "like Queensland if the climate is good during June, and if the place is practical." This letter impelled Francis Brabazon - a major figure in the early group - to search for a suitable ‘first preference’ venue. Using money willed to him by the Australian Sufi leader Baron Von Frankenburg for such a purpose, Brabazon eventually found and purchased an eighty-two-acre pineapple farm on Kiel Mountain, Woombye, Queensland. Brabazon telegramed Meher Baba to approve the purchase of the property to host Meher Baba on his second visit to Australia in 1958. Baba declared the choice “excellently suitable.” At this time, none of the Australian Baba group lived in Queensland or knew the area well. Thus to develop the centre in time for Meher Baba's visit posed many challenges. Devotees travelled back and forth for several hundred - or even thousands - of kilometers between Keil’s Mountain and their homes or work in Sydney or Melbourne. Others simply camped out. Despite such distances and several other obstacles – no power, no running water, and a great deal of mud and rain -in a few months the group managed to construct roads, buildings and water supply on the property.

Meher Baba’s Stay

Meher Baba stayed three and a half days at Avatar’s Abode – 3rd to 6th June 1958. This was the first visit of an Indian spiritual figure to Queensland, and the last trip Meher Baba made outside of India. The gathering was part of a world-wide sahavas (period of companionship) that Meher Baba had slated for June and July of that year. It occurred during a phase of marked suffering for Meher Baba, who was still recuperating from his second car accident.

Meher Baba arrived early at the property and bestowed the name ‘Avatar’s Abode’ whilst he was there. Baba explained that the centre would “become one of the great Places of Pilgrimage in the world.”

Much of Meher Baba’s visit was occupied with giving discourses on a variety of spiritual topics including love, longing and the spiritual planes. He met and had interviews with attendees, gave instructions, distributing special gifts and enjoyed some light entertainment. Meher Baba also visited the tents and buildings where people were staying and cooking.

A particular highlight was Meher Baba bringing home to true meaning of obedience, and asking those gathered whether they could actually do what he asked. Many remembered these sessions – which occurred in the Meeting Hall – as the most dramatic and significant aspect of the entire Sahavas.

Although the property was given to Meher Baba, he returned it to Francis Brabazon and reimbursed those who assisted with paying for it, making the point that he “held neither goods nor property.” Nevertheless, Baba asked Francis to keep the property “for the time being” and instructed Robert and Lorna Rouse to live on the property  and begin farming it. Subsequently, Meher Baba would ask a number of families and individuals to live on Avatar’s Abode or assist with its development.

Later History Over the following decade (1959-1969), Meher Baba gave various instructions as to the management and development of Avatar's Abode - changing arrangements according to what was required or what was occurring there. He maintained a strong interest in Avatar’s Abode for the rest of his life, issuing various telegrams and instructions to its residents, despite his deteriorating health. In 1967, Meher Baba called Bill Le Page to India specifically to initiate a new phase of development for the property. Out of this came a platform of changes and additions. The poet Francis Brabazon is buried on Avatar’s Abode. On Meher Baba’s instructions, Brabazon had worked on his opus Stay with God during his first residence there. Brabazon also lived on Avatar’s Abode from 1969 till his death in 1984, producing The Golden Book of Praise (1982).

During the 1960s and 1970s, Avatar’s Abode became an important transit/ meeting point for Australian youth investigating Alternative/ Eastern lifestyles and spirituality. At this time, there were few other such centres in existence at the time, and the Sunshine Coast was an epicentre for youth exploring an Alternative lifestyle.

Next (1979-1984), Bill Le Page and Meher Baba Foundation Australia enacted a new design as instructed by Baba, adding various buildings and landscaping. This is the basic plan Avatar’s Abode retains to this day. A cluster of followers moved onto or near the centre during this period, forming the nucleus of a small community.

In 1984, Avatar’s Abode Trust was formed to hold Avatar’s Abode in perpetuity. Between this time and today, the Avatar’s Abode Trust, Meher Baba Foundation Australia and independent donors gradually added various functional buildings, access roads and gardens. They also developed means of preserving the centre’s collections of items, publications and documents associated with Meher Baba.

Contacts: Avatar’s Abode Trust, PO Box 184, Woombye Q 4559 Meher Baba Foundation Australia, PO Box 22, Woombye Q 4559

Websites: www.avatarsabode.com.au www.avatarmeherbaba.org  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BabaisLove (talk • contribs) 23:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I will look through this soon Babaislove. Thanks for posting it HumusTheCowboy (talk) 05:46, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

vandalism
Vandalism warning today to user 114.76.59.112 (talk)‎. Reverted. Good faith has been assumed already and used up via back channel contacts. Clearly a rogue Baba person who wants his her version of truth in the article. I wonder if they are trying to get the entire article taken away. I doubt they even know where a talk page is, however if they I hope they read this. Will track the IP later

Truth is not the criterion for inclusion of any idea or statement in a Wikipedia article, even if it is on a scientific topic (see Wikipedia:Science). The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether the material is factually correct. HumusTheCowboy (talk) 21:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

New Material
New Material has been added in Status Today and Founding e.g new referenced info about whose idea AA was and how it came about. Plus some overall minor edits. Babaislove material above being used as agreed back channel. Referencing issues limit use of above material, as does relevancy, as does notability re space constraints. Referencing issues being, self published limitations, lack of references, quality of references, void references, incomplete references. References were emailed to me also. Article tone has been softened HumusTheCowboy (talk) 01:18, 24 April 2012 (UTC)