Talk:Ave Maria (Schubert)

Entire Article UNSOURCED
I don't see why my reference to the 2006 Muse song, "Soldier's Poem" should be pulled when the entire article is unsourced. My contribution may or may not be original research, but on those grounds, the entire article could be deleted as "original research;" so, get a life. How is my contribution stating the influence of this piece on contemporary musicians "not relevant to the article"? And yet people wonder why classical music aficionados are often thought of as out of touch, staid, and boring. When someone like me tries to celebrate a piece in the context of it's influence on the present day, it is considered irrelevant. Hooray for you. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 15:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous
Would someone be so kind to indicate the version sung by the various artists listed, namely Schubert's original "Ellens dritter Gesang" or the Latin "Ave Maria" adaptation, for example by adding an asterisk to the names of artists singing "Ellens dritter Gesang"! Many thanks! 00:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the following is "Ellens dritter Gesang" rather than the Latin "Ave Maria" adaptation: Joan Baez, "Noel": "Ave Maria, sung in German". Could someone please check it?

How appropriate is the listing under "Solos": "Nigel Kennedy Gounod"? Perhaps the following is intended: Classic Kennedy; but there he plays indeed the Bach/Gounod "Ave Maria", neither Schubert's song "Ellens dritter Gesang" (which is the subject of this article), nor the "Ava Maria" adaptation of Schubert's said song.

Looks like some more work is needed on the listing(s) to be both appropriate and meaningful! 05:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Liona Boyd: The audio clip (all 20 seconds of it...) does not sound like "Ellens dritter Gesang". If this is the case, then it ought to be removed from this article.

Alternatively, create a new heading such as "Adaptations of Schubert's music".

Celine Dion: If the lyrics are correct and complete, then Celine Dion's version is a medley of material from Schubert's "Ellen's third song" that omits the original third verse (thus robbing the Scott/Schubert song of its heart) and material from the traditional "Ave Maria" prayer. To compound the muddle, the lyrics page wrongly states that it is "Written by: Charles Gounod".

The listings in this Wikipedia article are looking to me more and more like uncritical off-loadings of favourites, which is not the purpose of a serious encyclopedia. 05:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Recordings of Schubert's original "Ellens dritter Gesang" in German (i.e. not the later "Latin Ave Maria adaptation): Elly Ameling: Marian Anderson:  Suggest to organize the artists into (1) those that sing Schubert's original, (2) those that sing the Latin Ave Maria adaptation of Schubert's composition, (3) those that sing some other lyrics variation of Schubert's compostion. 01:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC) / 20:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I've got good news: Rachel Field's version of Schubert's "Ave Maria" is in a rare book that's on reserve at the New York Library of Performing Arts. And the best part is: the song also has three verses, like Schubert's original. Only the third verse made it into the film Fantasia. You can find out more here. 15:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that it should also be noted that Tarja Turunen, former singer of the group called Nightwish, did a lovely rendition of Ellens dritter Gesang, which can be found on the Henkays Ikuisuudesta album. She might also be included on the solo list.

--68.21.34.176 07:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Many thanks! Link to sample traced (...) and added; but (sorry!) moved down according to alphabetic order.

19:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Lyics
There is edit warring over inclusion of the lyrics. Where is it written that "this is not a lyric site"? Please see Lyrics and poetry. It seems these lyrics are probably in public domain and relevant to this encyclopedic article about the song. A consensus needs to be reached. ♫ Cricket02 05:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Additional note: The lyrics have been in this article since Feb 2005.  ♫ Cricket02 05:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the specific guideline regarding addition of lyrics is here: WP:NOT. And my revert was going on the previous revert from an administrator, Cuchullain, whom I trust to have knowledge regarding what is appropriate to add, and what is not. However, if you have additional questions, I'd suggest asking that administrator nicely on their page for further explanation. Thanks! Ariel ♥  Gold 05:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the explanation. I would argue that the article does not consist solely of the lyrics, and primarily contains information about authorship, date of publication, social impact, etc. I believe the lyrics to be much more encyclopedic to this article than the trivia on this page.  However, if deemed necessary, I don't have a problem then adding the lyrics to Wikisource.  ♫ Cricket02 05:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, it seems to me the lyrics to the Disney Fantasia version would be copyrighted. I also propose the "Other Uses" section be removed as trivia.  ♫ Cricket02 06:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Cricket! I just was popping in to see how things were going, and I agree that this article isn't just lyrics, so as long as there are no copyright problems, if the lyrics contribute to the subject, then they should most likely remain. I apologize for the revert of last night, but I hope you can understand I was referring to a previous decision made by an administrator, that seemed justified. But I'd still encourage the addition of them to the other projects, WikiSource and WikiQuote, as it is always great to help sister projects grow! [[Image:Face-grin.svg|20px]] Alas, I am not familiar with this subject, so I honestly cannot offer any opinions on the context, so I shall leave the decisions up to you and the other editors here who contribute to improving the article, and I trust that your decisions will be fair and reasonable. Again, my apologies for my reversion and any confusion, Cheers! Ariel ♥ Gold 19:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem Ariel. I will wait and see if anyone else would like the lyrics to stay.  Otherwise, will move to Wikisource.  ♫ Cricket02 15:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I am strongly in favor of including the lyrics. This song is special, in that it is set to a German translation of an English poem, and is often mistaken for the setting of the "usual" Ave Maria, so the lyrics are very relevant for the discussion of the song.  Though the Disney lyrics should probably go.  The Disney thing is really just a footnote.--345Kai 05:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Music now available
With a good deal of effort, I've managed to obtain a good quality recording for this page. Raul654 05:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Very nice, thank you. ♫ Cricket02 15:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems difficult to find recordings of "Ellens dritter Gesang" on the Internet that are not just well sung but also convincing, considering that this is the prayer of a young "maiden" ("O Jungfrau, sieh der Jungfrau Sorgen, O Mutter, hör ein bittend Kind"). Of the sample links included so far, only that of the soprano Elly Ameling has a young freshness, without overbearing drama, and the further advantage of a good pronounciation – the latter being the purpose of including samples, namely that those familiar only with the Latin "Ave Maria" church prayer version can appreciate the difference (not least because only "Ellens dritter Gesang" is Schubert's own).
 * If contributors adding the name of an artist to the list state also which version it is, perhaps eventually the headings "Solos" and "Duos" can be replaced, more helpfully, with "Ellens dritter Gesang", "Ave Maria (Latin)", and "Ave Maria (Free Versions)". At the moment it seems premature to introduce this distinction, since the version has been stated in the case of only a few of the artists listed. 21:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See YouTube for a complete recording of Schubert's original Ellens dritter Gesang in German (artist Barbara Bonney): with landscape photos, same rendition, but with a devotional picture of Mary
 * compare with rendition attributed to Maria Callas (with a video of Pope Benedict XVI in Brazil)
 * 02:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The Fayne recording is horrible. She wobbles like an elderly woman on a walking stick.  Not very virginal.  Is there a better free recording? I agree that the Bonney recording is marvellous, but I'm sure it's not free. --345Kai 05:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It took me 3 years to find a free recording. Good luck finding another. Raul654 06:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Seconded - this recording is wholesale butchery. 69.7.77.20 (talk) 21:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Solos? Duos?
I have a strong opinion against these long lists of everyone and their dog who has ever recorded this song (or something vaguely related to this song). If an artist is particularly notable for performing this song, or a particular recording is very notable, then please write some prose about this with appropriate references (as was done with the Disney version). --345Kai 05:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, I'm sure all these links to non-free recordings on you tube and various commercial sites are inappropriate for wikipedia. --345Kai 05:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've been bold and got rid of those two lists. I checked, and all the external links indeed strongly violated External_links --345Kai 06:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I am so glad to find that someone is doing something about this. The lists "Solos"/"Duos" were daft. I can say so, since it was I that introduced them, when I first stumbled across a growing collection of internal links without any indication which version the individual artists were singing; but I did so solely as a short-term measure, as there was no quick way of establishing it. Separating "solos" from "duos" suggested the likelihood that at least a tiny beginning was being made at separating the "chaff" from the "wheat" ("tiny", because I suspect far more "solos" are the Latin Ave Maria adaptation rather than Schubert's original). A better way of handling would be giving just one example for the original (as has now been done), but a good quality rendition, maybe also one for the well-established Latin Ave Maria adaptation for the reason that it uses Schubert's music. That, however, may open the door to an argument about suitable renditions. Thank you for pointing out that not everything on the internet is "free" to be linked to in Wikipedia (not even the short Amazon samples? but I take your advice at face value). The reason for including a link to a rendition of Schubert's piece is, of course, not to advertise a particular artist but to help clear up the misunderstanding about it. In view of what has been said above, the Dorothea Fayne rendition seems to be the only one available (and the only one now left in); but – with apologies to the contributor! – what's the point, considering that one simply cannot understand her, a requirement much better served by, for example, the Barbara Bonney's rendition, and, judging by the short sample, Elly Ameling's.
 * As regards "External links", should the "Cello and guitar duet" link remain, considering that all but one link to vocal artists have been deleted? 09:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.128.135 (talk)

Hitman?
I moved this from the main page to here. Please fix the English before putting it back, and provide references for some of the more outrageous claims. Also, please consider how relevant this information is to the subject of the article.--24.85.68.231 (talk) 07:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Franz Schubert's Ave Maria (Ellens dritter Gesang) is used on the title screen, and as background music of the final secret level in Hitman: Blood Money and is set be the theme to the Hitman movie, based on the game. The particular version for the movie soundtrack is called "Ave Maria" and is sung by Christina England Hale. The version used in the game has the same title, is sung by Daniel Perret of the Zurich Sängerknaben.

I'm also certain that it was used for the title screen in Hitman Blood Money. Can anyone confirm the current claim that it is used in the 2016 Hitman game? And how about a shorter version of the above information such as the following? Martinording (talk) 18:38, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

It appeared in the 2006 video game Hitman: Blood Money as well as in the 2007 film Hitman.

Ellen is overheard by Roderick Dhu?
Could someone who knows please clarify? That sentence is in direct contradiction to the German article.--24.85.68.231 (talk) 07:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Latin Text
Does anyone know when the full Latin text (Ave Maria) was first applied to Schubert's composition? I'm particularly interested if this predates Gounod's Ave Maria (1859). Peel (talk) 00:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Garble

 * Schubert composed the songs on the transfers of the German texts. With the exception of No. 5, the songs were to be performed with the original English texts to be released. The right-free transfers of Adam Storck had to be set accordingly, which was not without small difficulties.

What the dickens is this supposed to mean? Is this a babelfish of something about Uebersetzung (if so, the English is "translation")? It seems dubious even so; it appears to be asserting the existence of international copyright in 1825. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've no idea but it is in English, not a foreign language. If you think its a bad translation or a machine translation then use RoughTranslation, but if thats the only issue then just remove that passage-- Jac 16888 Talk 19:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, that's merely the example I first ran across. I will switch to the more precise template (although I assert that, even made up of English words, this ain't English). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead and first section confusing
The article starts out as "Ellens dritter Gesang (Ellens Gesang III, D839, Op 52 no 6, 1825), Ellen's third song in English...

I think this means that "Ellens dritter Gesang" is the _German_ title of this song and can be translated as or is often known in English as "Ellen's Third Song."

Can this be clarified by someone familiar with this topic? Also, is "Ellens dritter Gesang" merely a musical composition, or is it a song (music plus lyrics)?

The first section starts as: The piece is often referred to as Schubert's Ave Maria; but it was originally composed as a setting of a song from Walter Scott's popular epic poem The Lady of the Lake,[1] in a German translation by Adam Storck (1780-1822),[2] and thus forms part of Schubert's Liederzyklus vom Fräulein vom See.

So this seems to be saying, "This song was originally composed as a setting of a song..."

I think this means, "Even though the German title is translated as 'Ellen's Third Song,' this is a tune/piece of music that has been used as the music for a song with the lyrics selected from Walter Scott's popular epic poen 'The Lady of the Lake'..."

Wakablogger2 (talk) 09:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Good point, I've tried to copyedit the article a bit to clarify what's meant. Rather than the music being used for lyrics from Scott's poem, it was originally composed as part of a seven song cycle of musical settings of the songs in Scott's poem, but is commonly now used as a setting for various lyrics based more or less on Ave Maria. Hope that's clearer. . dave souza, talk 16:53, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The elephant in the room

 * "Schubert Ellens dritter Gesang" gets less than 120 thousand ghits.
 * "Schubert Ave Maria" gets almost 5 million.

WP:COMMON would suggest this be moved to Ave Maria (Schubert).

Having it as a redirect from that name is not sufficient, imo. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  03:20, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. UtherSRG (talk) 03:56, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Ellens dritter Gesang → Ave Maria (Schubert) – See the thread above for my reasons and the evidence supporting it. Jack of Oz  [your turn]  10:20, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. WP:COMMONNAME is quite clear.  Powers T 14:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - per WP:COMMONNAME.--ukexpat (talk) 17:05, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per above and GB hits In ictu oculi (talk) 16:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Young Frankenstein
The Blind man scene with Gene Hackman. Ave Maria is playing on the phonograph minus vocal accompaniment when the monster breaks down the door. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.82.126.103 (talk) 04:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

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Runaway Bride (1999)
This song can be heard in Runaway Bride (1999) movie at around 26 min. Please include it in the article Ram nareshji (talk) 02:26, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Bootgesang
Ave Maria (Schubert), 3 "Bootgesang" is a translation of "the boat song" (from the poem) which is commonly known as Hail to the Chief in English, from the opening line "Hail to the Chief who in triumph advances!" In Storck's lyrics, that line is translated as Triumph, er naht, Heil, Heil dem Helden. While the song can be referred to as "Bootgesang" Triumph, er naht, translating the three words as "Triumph, he approaches" doesn't make sense, and needs the context of "Hail to the Chief". I think the version I've restored works reasonably well, but am open to discussing other ways of covering this song. . . dave souza, talk 20:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * My edit was wrong and your were right. I apologize and thank you for your edits. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:15, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Fantasia's version of Ave Maria in the public domain
I'd seen why Disney's version of Ave Maria from Fantasia is public domain? whenever if is not renewed by copyright in the US, while Schubert's melody is in the public domain, but perhaps Rachel Field died in 1942, by approximately 70 years p.m.a. --Frontman830 (talk) 06:07, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Add section that details usage in The Batman released in 2022?
Ave Maria has been used twice in two points in The Batman, is it an all clear to document such usage (as long as sources exist for this)? GreenGrenier (talk) 08:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The film also features the song as a leitmotif in the Riddler's theme. Possibly could be worth noting in an "in popular culture" heading? Skullgunk04 (talk) 13:43, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

History???
The article lacks any mention of the highly relevant issue: Who first replaced the lyrics of Schubert's "Ellens dritter Gesang" with the Latin words of "Ave Maria", and when did this occur?

I hope someone knowledgeable about this subject can fill in this missing information in the article.