Talk:Avenger (pulp-magazine character)

Rename
This is per official Wikipedia policy at WP:NAME. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As per The Shadow, can this be moved back to The Avenger, please? Capitalization of "The" sets the character in the same category as The Shadow, and not the Flash, the Joker, etc. ntnon (talk) 21:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The Shadow, after much debate and consensus, refers to the franchise of radio dramas, pulp stories, comics, etc., and not to the character per se.


 * Not sure what "category" you're referring to, but this was part of what the Shadow debate entailed &mdash; that fans of different characters would all want their character referred to as The Spirit, The Phantom, The Hulk, etc. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Reading through the The Shadow naming debate, I thought the major point over the The/ [null] leader was whether the character was regularly referred to using a capitalized "T"he, and thus whether it was part of the official name/title. "The Shadow" is the phrase - with a capital "T" - hence The Shadow. The Avenger is the same, hence... (that was what I meant by "category," it probably should have been "bracket").


 * So: the Joker, the Flash, (the) Batman, the Hulk. The Phantom and t/The Spirit are a little more tricky, because both seem to be referred to interchangeably with similar regularity. However, it's pretty standard across a number of books to see The Shadow and The Avenger. ntnon (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

2012 move
On the basis of the above discussion I've moved the page back to "The Avenger" until we develop a consensus for a move. I've looked at The Shadow and The Phantom and the both utilise "The" in the name, as does The Simpsons. The key, according to the MOS is if,. I've run a google book search and found four sources that prefer a capital T and two which do not. I'm also pondering File:Justice Inc 1975.jpg which indicates that "The" is an inseparable part of the name. Appreciating thoughts either way, Hiding T 16:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The Simpsons is the name of a TV show. The Phantom is the name of a comic strip.


 * One could say "The Joker" (Joker (comics)), "The Hulk" Hulk (comics), "The Spirit" Spirit (comics)) have "The" an inseparable part of the name, except that, like "The Avenger," they don't &mdash; The Bronx and The Hague, now they have "The" as an inseparable part of their names. (The article title"The Shadow" refers not to the radio show but ti the character, so that article title vios the MOS as noted at WP:NCC/THE.)


 * I'm not sure I see what makes the Avenger different from the Lone Ranger, the Green Hornet, the X-Men, the Flash (comics), the Punisher, the Terminator (character), Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, even the Avengers (comics). How is the Avenger different from all those? --Tenebrae (talk) 18:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The Avenger looks to be the name of the character, based on the image linked to above and some four sources. I'm turning this over in my mind, and thinking of instances where Batman was referred to as the Batman, and those are quite clearly established and it is noted that the character has been referred to as The Batman, and I'm also thinking of how we refer to Simpsons creator Matt Groening. So I am noting that these things require some thought. Is Lone Ranger at the wrong place? How often was Sundance Kid referred to as just Sundance? Does the film title Terminator influence usage, or the fact that there is more than one? It's all about usage, isn't it? Avengers is an easy one, that's the publication name. (Curiously it springs to mind that for most of my youth it was The Fantastic Four, but that's maybe one to put on the back-burner for future times and minds?) Hulk has referred to himself and been referred to in the comics and films simply as Hulk. Joker is a good point though. I would argue the character has similarly had familiarity bred into the concept; I can recall instances where Batman has been written referring to the character simply as Joker; has The Avenger? From what tradition did The Avenger spring?  The pulp tradition, where The Whatever was style of the day.  Has The Avenger fallen into familiarity like Joker?  I don't think so. Another example spring, to mind, that of The Saint, always referred to with The. I'm puzzling over solutions.  We could rewrite the article to make the main focus the series? But I still think this is an instant where the character is referred to with the as an inseparable part of the name in almost all relevant material out there. I think that's the basis for the discussion, personally. Hiding T 11:05, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Radio
I'm not sure the Old Time Radio program "The Avenger" should be mentioned here. From what I can tell, the Avenger of that show is an entirely different character.--G.B. Blackrock (talk) 23:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

From the description in the article, it appears that there was more than one Avenger series. I know the one you're thinking of, and that series is pretty much a clone of The Shadow. The main character's name is Jim Brandon, and he has a female companion named Fern Collier. Instead of hypnosis, though, this Avenger uses a "diffusion capsule" to make himself invisible. He even had a reworked version of The Shadow's catchphrase: "The road to crime ends in a trap that Justice sets.  Crime does not pay." 24.57.229.254 (talk) 02:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. There's consensus that the "the" is unnecessary; discussion of a potential split should continue separately. Cúchullain t/ c 14:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

The Avenger (character) → Avenger (character) – Because this article is about the character and not the franchise, the definite article qualifies the title rather than being part of it. Wikipedia's naming conventions with respect to definite and indefinite articles at the beginning of the name require qualifying definite articles to be removed.

That would keep this article consistent with the Joker (comics), the Hulk (comics), the Spirit (comics), the Lone Ranger, the Green Hornet, the X-Men, the Flash (comics), the Punisher, the Terminator (character), Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, the Avengers (comics), etc. --Relisted Cúchullain t/ c 16:34, 11 October 2012 (UTC) --Tenebrae (talk) 18:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Split to Avenger (character) and The Avenger (franchise), since much of this article deals with the franchise/magazine/novels, and not the character. -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 23:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't move, per my argument above that the character is referred to as The Avenger, not Avenger in the source material I have so far managed to find. Hiding T 11:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support When in doubt, remove "the," and the nominator has effectively argued for consistency with similar articles. This is not really the place to discuss a split. --BDD (talk) 16:20, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Italic title
Offhand I'm not seeing how to make the article title non-italic. There doesn't seem to be an "italic title" template on the page that one could remove. Anyone have any ideas? --Tenebrae (talk) 19:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Technical, presumably non-controversial move
There is now another Avenger character, Avenger (comics), so this could no longer be "Avenger (character)". --Tenebrae (talk) 18:29, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

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