Talk:Avengers: The Initiative

Members
I think it would be fun to list every character associated with the Initiative, perhaps as a separate article: "List of The Initiative members." That first cover alone makes it fun to try to list them all. - Darkhawk


 * There might be a better place to keep it, but currently you can find such a list if you click on the infobox image - you know, the cover to issue #1 with all the characters on it. 204.153.84.10 13:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't rely on covers. They have took many mistakes, changes, jokes, and other inconsistencies with interal content to trust, much like the problem with referrring to solicitation material. Doczilla 19:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * yes - captain britain's on the cover for example 87.114.225.170 12:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I belive that the cover is mearly supposed to represent registered heroes, not necessarily heroes that will be part of the Initiative or even appear in the book. MrDenton 13:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it would be more useful to list characters that appear in the book, rather than the ones on the first cover. For instance, #2 features cameos by the Mighty Avengers, the Texas Rangers, Hulkling, Wiccan and the Gargoyle, who all fight alongside the title characters. MightyTev 17:38, 03 May 2007 (GMT)
 * I absolutely agree on the idea of creating List of characters involved with The Initiative (rather than "Initiative members") to cover all registered superheroes. 204.153.84.10 14:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This article is about the comic book which follows the Camp Hammond trainees, better off starting a new article for the 50th State Initiative. The 50th State Initiative a plan to a have teams in every state; the Initiative is not a team. Spshu (talk) 04:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

...a minimum of one super team?
Is there an actual comic reference for this? I have seen this mentioned elsewhere, but in the actual comic books I have only seen characters mention "one team per state". I know it's nitpicky, but it could mean the difference between a list of 50 super teams or thousands. MrDenton 16:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, rereading issue 1, Yellowjacket says that the recruits will be "offered a spot on one of our fifty nationwide teams." So I'm making edits to reflect that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MrDenton (talk • contribs).
 * In Civil War number 5, Stark is talking to Daredevil and telling him that the "big plan" is to have 50 teams spread across 50 states. I hardly think he would've said it if he didn't intend there to be 50 teams in The Initiative.  I do think the determining factor here is INITIATIVE teams.  There can probably be as many more as they want, but the goal of The Initiative is to train new heroes and retrain old ones to get one superteam in every state.  Anything else doesn't necessarily have to be affiliated with them.DNMN 05:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

This list isn't accurate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers:_The_Initiative#Characters_involved lists characters that are supposedly involved, but really only appear on the cover. A number of these characters rarely make cameo appearances and their stories are mainly in their own titles, such as Deadpool and Moon Knight. Toxin hasn't actually been seen since his mini a few years back. Like many comic book covers, this was done for the image of a bunch of heroes, not because they are all actively involved in the title. Some of them, such as Moon Knight and girl Hawkeye, aren't even registered. 75.2.29.158 18:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur and recommend that this section of the article be removed. -- Lampbane 15:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Er, are you saying that the list of character is not from a cited source, but is composed of someone looking at the picture and identifying hte characters seen there? Of course, if that is the case, it is doomed to be purged immediately as OR by synthesis cruft. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  06:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that instead of moving the whole list perhaps someone could edit the list to include only those characters that have been "proven" to be a part of the Initiative. This would be done by listing the character and then the comic title and issue in which their involvement is confirmed. Just an idea. Jasynnash2 (talk) 13:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Potential Recruit
I've just removed a lot of the red wikilinkage for a whle lot of characters that had no corresponding artice for them. I am a little concerned tht some of these superhero names seem to be made-up, and might in fact be a couple of contributors putting themselves and their friends in. I'd remove all the unconnected ones, but I think that's a bit harsh. I'm posting my concerns here to see what comments come out of it. If there is no significant connection by say, Sunday, I will remove them from the list and bring them here where they will be suject to connection/verification before they can be re-added. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  08:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC) I think the discussion would be easier to continue if we didn't have to scroll down over the long, removed sections, so I am putting a new section in here so discussion can continue. If an offense was given by the inclusion of this break, understadnt hat none was intended. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  17:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That was a good call! I'd still like to see cited references on these things where they've appeared in the comics. 204.153.84.10 15:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone needs to put the state teams back in the article. Not only was that the most notable part of the article, but every team has reference to back it up. --Venomaru 2.0 12:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Please read the rationale for its removal. If you think that every team "has reference" to back them up, please bring that reference here. Remember, it has to be a reliable, verifiable citation (ie, no blogs or fanchat). Put it here, and we will add them in as we go.The problem we are trying to avoid is someone adding someone like the Red Skull, saying 'I swear I saw him french-kissing Tony Stark in the issue.' Not bloody likely. This is why we need something like from the letter page or Marvel staffers saying something like 'Next issue: Captain Sprocket joins the team in North Dakota' - which is citable (as in listing the issue).
 * Something that hasn't been done in other comic book ensembles, which I think would be really good for here is to perhaps list where every character joins in here on the discussion page. Once we have a fairly comprehensive list, we can figure out how to collate it.


 * On a side note, you might want to set up an account, which allows your edits to accumuilate - which leads to you becoming an "established" editor, and able to edit on these sorts of articles. I'd love to see you here. If you do that, drop me a line and say howdy, and I will welcome you on board. :) - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  17:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If I'm not mistaken, didn't the teams list cite the issue in which each team is confirmed beside each entry? What better source than the comics themselves? For example the Rangers team is cited as issue #07 of Civil War. I'm looking at an older revision of the page as we speak, and every team has the issue in which they appear referenced at the bottom of the page. And as for the account bit, assuming you're talking to me, I have one already, I'm using it as we speak. =P --Venomaru 2.0 08:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Fifty State Initiative (members, teams, and potential recruits) be part of it's own article, instead of being tagged on this one? With the exclusion of the issue #1 cover, more than half of the characters confirmed being part of the Initiative listed in the removed section haven't even been mentioned (or even implied) in this series. Anyway, about the content that's actually removed, I don't know how much more citation is needed for these.
 * 1.In the first section (listing the characters involved in the Initiative), Marvel made a character map confirming who is who: http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.947 - just because they aren't a part of a team mentioned doesn't mean they aren't a member of the Initiative. Not everything in the Marvel Universe happens on panel.
 * 2. The Potential Recruits list is entirely taken from a single comic which was specifically mentioned in the removed section - The Civil War: Battle Damage Report one-shot. Yes some of the names don't sound real (I wouldn't have believed a superhero named Ben Pancake who goes by the name "Spellcheck," but I see him in the issue just as clearly as all the others mentioned)
 * 3. Venomaru 2.0 is right in saying that every team listed by state so far is completely accurate. Every single reference had a comic as a citation (with, I suppose, The Liberty Legion as somewhat an exception given that the issue being referenced hasn't been released yet, despite the official Marvel solicitation more or less confirming it) My only problem with the section is listing blank states, which seems like just a waste of space. Perhaps listing states with no team names without any details also seems kind of pointless. Captain Ultra's presence in Nebraska shown in Iron Man #21 is worth mentioning, but the 'Unnamed team based in Hickory, NC near Lenoir-Rhyne College" North Carolina team is no help at all. Same goes for the Mormons in Utah.

--Blue Falcon 04:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Based upon the link to the author listing, I think the Initiative by state seems like a good idea, with a link within this article to it (ie, for more info on Initiative teams by state, etc.) I don't think that we should mention those states without teams at all. I don't recall anymore the states of Australia, and I imagine detailing English counties would axt as the Cure to Insomnia to Americans. I imagine the reverse is true with naming all 50 states, as well as Ameri-centric. I am glad you understoof my concernns over someone faking a hero name in, and being able to cite their inclusion is more encyclopedic and sidesteps the problem. Ben Pancake. Cripes, they must be tired as well over at Marvel. I'm just waiting until they bring Cap back. I personally blame Iron Man for his death. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  06:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, well the reason why the states of Australia and English counties haven't been mentioned yet is because, at the moment, the US is the only region that has the SHRA/Initiative (or at least, one that's worth noting). Although a good portion of the Battle Damage Report does go into detail about international views relating to it (Wakanda, Israel, Japan, Attlian, Great Britain, Latveria, France, Canada, China, South America, and Atlantis). Perhaps if a new page is made, it would be appropriate to include these views as well. --Blue Falcon 15:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You can just edit the section in question, there was no reason to drop down below the removed sections, which can be deleted from the talk page as it can be retrived by 'undoing' or by copying from the previous verious. But appearently, others are not following and have returned all the removed sections.  A list of all Marvel's USA character that have registered is what you will get which -- what 99% of the characters.  Besides the New Avengers, Dr. Strange and some other minor characters, they are all presumably registered.  Some may opt out and retire, so it would be quite a list.  Spshu (talk) 04:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Would there be a problem with placing each of the list-type sections under a hide template? That way, people who don't want to scroll over all the lists can avoid doing so. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  14:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess that can work. I tried spliting the Fifty State Initiative out to its own page but I kept on getting "wait for consensus" by Rauj16. Ugg! (This caused all the ref errors.) I did to as this article is about the comic book and the comic book did not end up as intended to feature the various Initiative teams but instead ended up focused on the trainees at Camp Hammond.  Heck, Camp Hammond has its own article.  So it was logical and the lists of team and individuals would move over too.  So should I have the 50 State Initiative article deleted or what?  Spshu (talk) 18:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How about a table with State|Team Name|Members at least to flatten out the team section? Those with membership list article (Mighty Avengers) or section (the Order) can then link to the membership list in the Members cell.   I have changed the article to merge the team list with the list of characters involve to reduce redundancies. Spshu (talk) 16:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed sections
I have removed these sections from the article because there isn't any sort of citation proving that these folk arte actually involved. Someone actually just identified the characters on te cover and wrote them in the section. Its OR, and not a Good Thing. When citation happens, then maybe someof them can be re-added, but not until then.

Characters involved Among the characters confirmed as members of The Initiative are: (Note: Many characters in the list below are simply confirmed to be on the cover to Avengers: The Initiative #1, and have not been seen or mentioned within Initiative continuity)

Potential recruits Characters who not seen on cover to Avengers: The Initiative #1, and have not been seen or mentioned within Initiative continuity, but have been considered by Iron Man as a "potential recruit" for the Initiative program, according to Civil War: Battle Damage Report.


 * Agent X (Jim Burley)
 * Aguila
 * Americop
 * Annex
 * Aquarian
 * Ardina
 * Bedlam (Bermuda Schwartz)
 * Black Crow
 * Blackwulf (Lucian)
 * Blazing Skull
 * Blind Justice
 * Blindside (Bobbie Chase)
 * Blistik (Victor Lillian)
 * Blitziana
 * Blue Shield
 * Bobster (Sturdevant Robbins)
 * Bounty
 * Brass
 * Brother Nature
 * Cadaver (Cody Fleischer)
 * Cain (Marvel Comics)|Cain
 * Canasta (Henry Cavanaugh)
 * Captain Zero (David Stack)
 * Cardiac
 * Catiana
 * Challenger
 * Chi Demon
 * Clearcut
 * Comet Man
 * Crime-Buster (Eugene Mason)
 * Crimson Daffodil
 * Crippler
 * Crusader (Aubrey Thompson)
 * Deadhead
 * Deathlok (Larry Young)
 * Dementia
 * D-Man
 * Destroyer of Demons (Joshua Grimly)
 * Devil-Slayer
 * Dominic Fortune
 * Dragon Lord (Tako Shamara)
 * Echo
 * Eleggua (Nestor Rodriguez)


 * Enigma (Tara Virango)
 * Fateball (Laura Broadbahr)
 * Firebolt (Tony Sloan)
 * Frankie and Victoria
 * Freak of Science (Rico Gawren)
 * Free Spirit
 * Frog-Man
 * Garrett, Jonathan "John"
 * Geiger
 * Ghost Dancer (James Owl)
 * Gibbon
 * Glitch (Chazz Admunson)
 * Gomi
 * Googam
 * Gorilla Girl
 * Hardnose (Alexander Patel)
 * Heart Attack (Tyler Meagher)
 * High-Tech
 * Hit-Maker (Orlando Sinclair)
 * Huntara
 * Hurricane (Albert Potter)
 * Hybrid
 * Infamnia (Gina Morris)
 * It the Living Colossus
 * Junta
 * Lazarus (Todd Hunter)
 * Link and Poltergeist
 * Living Pharaoh (Akasha Martinez)
 * Living Totem (Whistle Pig)
 * Machine Teen
 * Magdalena (Magda Sinclair)
 * Man-Eater
 * Man-Elephant (Manfred Haller)
 * Marvel Boy (David Bank)
 * Masked Marvel
 * Masked Rose (Jo Tyler)
 * Mayhem
 * Mechamage
 * Mikado & Mosha
 * Monstro the Mighty
 * Mop Man (Joe Trinity)
 * Neurotap
 * Nocturne
 * Nosferata (Purple Hayes)
 * Obituary


 * Payback (Eddie Dyson)
 * Phantom Blonde (Wanda Mason)
 * Pixie
 * Portal
 * Pyre (Gray Russell)
 * Raving Beauty (Cheryl Gates)
 * Reaper (Louis Dawson)
 * Red Nine
 * Ricochet
 * Riot Grrl (Erika Graham)
 * Ryder
 * Sangre (Julia Concepcion)
 * Savage Steel
 * Shadow-Hunter (Niki Jakosan)
 * Shriker (Jack D'auria)
 * Siege
 * Sleek
 * Soulfire (Jason Maldonado)
 * Spectra (Selena Slate)
 * Speedo (Federico Wantaugh)
 * Spellcheck (Ben Pancake)
 * Spider-Woman (Mattie Franklin)
 * Stained Glass Scarlet (Scarlet Fascinera)
 * Steel Raven (Aranda Charboneau)
 * Stem Cell
 * Stentor
 * Stepford Cuckoos
 * Strongarm (Cary Armstrong)
 * Suicide (Chris Daniels)
 * Sunstreak (Jenny Burke)
 * Sunturion
 * Tailhook (Marissa Paulsen)
 * Thirty-Three (Tiberius Carr)
 * Thunderbolt
 * Topspin
 * Toxin
 * Ultra-Marine (Kith Nasca)
 * Vagabond
 * White Fang (Elizabeth Bondi)
 * White Tiger
 * Winky Man (Paul Same)
 * Wolf
 * Wysper
 * X-Cutioner

List of teams by state

Removing wikilinks to states, and non-mentioned states
I am acting on Blue Falcon's previous note and removing those states not mentioned in the series. When the state gets mentioned, then we can include it. As well, I am removing the wikilinks to the American states because those links refer to real states, and not the imaginary states noted within the comic books. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  22:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Template
I have created a template for the Initiative at a sandbox page. Should I go ahead and use it or should I mention at the Comics Wiki Project? Spshu (talk) 18:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have created it at a template page so it is now here. Spshu (talk) 21:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Fifty State Initiative
A separate article has been started. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Seeing as the discussion kind of died, I am going to ask if the inclusion of the list of teams is necessary here, as in the intro paragraph, it states the article is about the comic book series. The Fifty State Initiative article is still there, and with some effort, the article could be maintained as a comprehensive list of the initiative teams. Rau's talk 03:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Mighty Avengers
The Mighty Avengers are not part of the Initiative, it was stated in the first issue.  Rau  J16  20:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I went back and read the issue. The text on the opening panel of Mighty Avenger 1 is "Avengers Initiative". While it is pointed out that the Avengers would serve the world, no where does it say if it represents New York as a 50 State Initiative team.  Based on that, it would make sense to add it back as an Initiative team assigned to the world and based in New York City, NY  similar to the listed unassigned team of Lightning Storm and Shadow Initiative. Make sense or should we exclude them too?  Spshu (talk) 21:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * We should exclude them as well, shadow initiative is still in Camp Hammond, so if it had to be there, that is where it should go. But until it says that Lightning Storm and Mighty Avengers are part of the 50 State Initiative, they should be left out.  Rau  J16  21:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think those supporting Mighty Avengers, Lightning Storm and Shadow initiative as a 50 State Initiative is based on it being under the post-Civil War banner of Initiative. I think that this is the problem with discussion regarding the list of everyone involve with the 50 State Initiative which is being discussed whether or not it should be seperated.  Just list the teams as that is the point. A registered hero might not be assign a team or a team of registered heroes might not be assign a state (Fantastic Four, anyone). Spshu (talk) 14:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I reread Civil War 6 and 7 which indicates Avengers is to serve New York. I see them expanding the Avengers to the world beyond their 50 State Initiative mandate, so there is no reason not to list them. Spshu (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Which pages was that on? I also just reread to issues(to check for personal assurance) and i did not see any mention of the Avengers, other than that they tried to reform villains back in the start. Im not saying your wrong, but a specific source for this would prevent some one ignorant from changing it back. Rau's talk 20:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just as I put in the article as a source that was remove. It was a statement by Commander Hill that with the Avengers on the East Coast and the Order on the West Coast that there was some sort of balance to the Initiative. Spshu (talk) 13:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That is Page 3 Panel 1. Spshu (talk) 14:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess that can be taken as a reference to Mighty Avengers, I must have subconsciously discredited it thinking it was New Avengers. But you are right. I will not remove it anymore. Rau's talk 18:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Active
If a recent Newsarama interview, Tom Brevoort stated that Skyhawk was the only active hero patroling Washington State. Does the list deal with all teams, or only active ones? Rau's talk 19:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think he is just going off the cuff. I believe Force Works to Iowa, unnamed Mormon team to Utah, Thunderbolts to Colorado, Spaceknights to Chicago, Illinois were mentioned in Civil War 6 or 7 along with the Order/Champions and the Rangers.  I don't have the Civil War: Frontline issues as far as the Earth Force vs. one member, Skyhawk, patroling Washington.  It is possible that the other members were injured or kill in some other book that I am not picking up. I check out a more direct source than the MarvelDatabase wiki. Spshu (talk) 19:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ] - Here indicates the what I am indicating. I will check that issue.  Spshu (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The reference is on page four, page two not counting the cover and the previously pages. Also, it is not like it cannot change. I think current word overrides something from before the initiative was in full swing. Rau's talk 00:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Plot
I intend to condense the plot section heavily. Expect a major edit in the coming days. Rau's Speak Page 00:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Death of Crusader?
There has been no confirmation that Crusader is deceased. He disappeared and he has a piece of the Cosmic Cube, so whoever keeps writing that he is dead and that Delroy caused his death should stifle themselves and stop going off of speculation. Timmyfitz161 (talk) 01:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
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