Talk:Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe)/Archive 1

Avengers Roster
Why Avengers Roster should be only upto Avengers: Age of Ultron. There are many superheroes who joined Avengers after that also. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 07:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Any hero in the MCU can be considered 'an Avenger'. They only count as such if they actually join the organization. The ones added after Age of Ultron cannot be proved to be members. IronManCap (talk) 15:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Okkk but what about Quicksilver. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 19:54, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Quicksilver never officially joined the organization. The others like Wanda and Falcon count because they joined at the end of the film. IronManCap (talk) 20:43, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

And what about Spider-Man? He was made official Avengers by Iron Man in Avengers: Infinity War. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 20:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * —El Millo (talk) 20:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

And at starting of Avengers: Endgame, Natasha Romanoff was leading a group of superheroes (Okoye, Rocket Raccoon, Nebula, Captain Marvel, War Machine) that may possible Avengers. But even if they aren't Nebula, Rocket Raccoon and later Ant-Man were shown wearing Avengers uniform during Time-Heist along with other Avengers. So Rocket Raccoon, Nebula and Ant-Man are also not Avengers because in films they do have Avengers logo on them and when Tony asked about Avengers to be assembled they also were included. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 05:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * War Machine is already included. Okoye was likely just an ambassador for Wakanda and probably did not join the organization. Captain Marvel was merely informing Romanoff about the situation, not proving her as a member. The thing about having Avengers logos on the suits is a good point, although that could just be as they are using Avengers equipment. IronManCap (talk) 20:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Okkk...but when Iron Man asked if the team is being assembled that also included Nebula, Rocket Raccoon and Ant-Man and even have their conclusions at the end of Avengers: Endgame, Ant-Man going to his family, Nebula and Rocket Raccoon rejoined Guardians of the Galaxy. And they should be in list as they are members of Avengers cause nobody wears costume with Avengers logo if they aren't. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 04:29, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm willing to include Rocket and Nebula with a pinch of salt. IronManCap (talk) 11:23, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll put in Lang too. IronManCap (talk) 11:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Other Characters on the Team roster section
It's lengthy and the information is already on the team biography section. Why it shouldn't be summarized. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It is a relatively short subsection, and it is the best way of including certain references. The fictional team bio is what is really lengthy, which I am shortening. IronManCap (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Okk. But still I think we should remove the organization listed over there. Because S.H.I.E.L.D. also have been affiliated to Avengers and had fought alongside during Battle of Sokovia and but why it's not even included? The subsection is about other characters, right? The organization still can appear in the Team biography and infobox of Avengers. Or we should add S.H.I.E.L.D. into it too. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 21:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I feel like mentioning that the big three of S.H.I.E.L.D. (Nick Fury, Phil Coulson and Maria Hill) and the organization itself will be fine but let’s not overdo it. Jhenderson 7 7 7  22:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The addition of Phil Coulson must be either changed or removed. As it is now, listing him as inspiration for the Avengers to continue fighting, reads like trivia. —El Millo (talk) 22:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅: modified description. IronManCap (talk) 22:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Jhenderson  7 7 7  23:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Much better. —El Millo (talk) 01:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Aragorn. Is that you?
Is the source cited justifiable to call the flying horse Aragorn (like in the comics) officially. Note the MCU Wikia page and Marvel Database uses that as the horses name in the profile too. I am just uncertain myself of how to convey it. Jhenderson 7 7 7  23:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Here is a duplicate. I think I will leave it as as since it's not notable enough distinction. Jhenderson 7 7 7  23:41, 13 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Hark! Another source calls the horse Aragorn here. Jhenderson  7 7 7  23:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Seems good enough. IronManCap (talk) 00:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The article's readiness and plot condensing
Ok I did my best for its readiness. I would recommend plot condensing (which I am not good at). I myself feel it ready for mainspace if the plot issue goes away and I welcome more thoughts on the subject and improvements as well. Jhenderson 7 7 7  04:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You've done some good work here, I'll try and cleanup the plot and then this is definitely mainspace ready. IronManCap (talk) 12:33, 13 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Ok continue. I will try not to get in the way. Jhenderson  7 7 7  14:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

✅, seems about mainspace-ready now if you ask me. IronManCap (talk) 16:56, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I guess we should request it then. Jhenderson  7 7 7  18:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Requested at Talk:Characters of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. IronManCap (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Purpose
Is there some sort of official 'purpose' we can use (like a sourced synopsis or a Nick Fury quote) for the infobox that isn't WP:OR? IronManCap (talk) 20:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Quote form Nick Fury sounds plausible. Jhenderson  7 7 7  20:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I thought about using the 'there was an idea' quote, but that didn't really explicitly state the purpose. Most 'official' purpose I could find was from Captain Marvel. (YouTube - 0:18). IronManCap (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * What you did seems fine. Jhenderson 7 7 7  22:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Marvel Avengers station
Apparently there is a variety of places called Marvel Avengers station. (Proof:here, here and an upcoming one here) Worth the addition on cultural impact? Jhenderson 7 7 7  23:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, but don't use those sources as Trip Advisor and Toronto Sun aren't reliable sources. IronManCap (talk) 23:04, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Toronto Sun is. But I just found out there is a main website for all locations . Jhenderson  7 7 7  23:08, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, I was associating Toronto Sun with the deprecated The Sun, but seems they're unaffiliated. The main website is good for use as a primary source. IronManCap (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * ✅.I added it and the image (if the image lasts on Commons). Happy editing. Jhenderson  7 7 7  23:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Also not worried about a revert of image placement. Cheers! Jhenderson  7 7 7  23:40, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Inspired media
Here is a source for one inspired media Avengers: Damage Control. I just felt like help somebody jump start it if they want since I am kind of worn out on editing. There is other video games based on the team too that would be helpful too. Woohoo on it being in mainspace though!
 * Jhenderson 7 7 7  00:13, 15 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Jhenderson 7 7 7  13:31, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Jhenderson 7 7 7  13:31, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

DYK hook
I might nominate this as a DYK hook in the main page. Any idea of what the best hook may be? Jhenderson 7 7 7  13:43, 15 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Pinging on this question. I believe he used to do them quite frequently.  Jhenderson  7 7 7  13:49, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Captain Marvel to the roster
So I’m just putting in what pretty much everyone on here has agreed to put in already. Every MCU film wiki editor has agreed she’s an Avenger, as it’s stated on her character page and on The Marvels cast section as well. If it’s wrong then, I am wrong. But again I’m just going by what seems to be the consensus among the MCU film community here. --Kinsley Bottom (talk) 03:28, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I found a source from Marvel saying she joins the team in Endgame. We just can't add these without either explicit confirmation in the film or a reliable source that states she joins the team. —El Millo (talk) 03:44, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I’m sorry about that, it’s just I assumed she was forgotten because it’s stated on her pages plus considering this page was created recently. --Kinsley Bottom (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Other characters in the Team roster section.
I've seen many anonymously edits in this section but whoever is doing this should be stop doing. But still some of the editor's edit are not wrong. Maybe we should discuss here first then add it into the mainspace. Vikenviksingh (talk) 06:12, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Discussion is encouraged per WP:BRD, and the edits to the section seem to be in WP:GOODFAITH, although I personally think the section currently already clarifies everything the IP has been adding. IronManCap (talk) 10:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I also personally think that the section clearifies everything but but it seems a little bit overcrowded. Maybe the section need some cleanups and organising it would be great. Vikenviksingh (talk) 08:07, 26 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Sure the section needs a little bit or organisation and cleanup. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 11:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

RfC
(spoiler) At the end of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, the character Bruce Banner welcomes both Katy Chen and him to the team. Should her name be added here and here? although I didn't hear the word 'avengers'. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 09:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it's still too early to tell if she'll be an Avenger. —El Millo (talk) 12:22, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, per El Millo. --BDD (talk) 15:47, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I saw that this was added without agreed upon consensus so I reverted it. Also relisted the team as "Defunct" as of 2023. Agreed, too early to determine based just on that scene.Bloodyboppa (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This sounds like the characters were hinted at joining the Avengers. Was this in a post-credits scene, by any chance? Leave them off till the film has been made, but add a line or two about the hint itself.
 * And @Bloodyboppa, WP:BOLD edits don’t require consensus first, but we should avoid editing the page back and forth while there is an RFC underway. I’m less familiar with the MCU than you no doubt, but the article doesn’t appear to support the team being defunct. If the defunct date is included though, it should probably note (in universe) or similar, to not confuse naïve readers at the top of the page. — HTGS (talk) 21:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, per El Millo. IronManCap (talk) 11:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Regarding Shag-Chi, Marvel Studios has named him the new Avenger Cornerstonepicker (talk) 00:35, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure all MCU heroes are colloquially known as Avengers (even Howard the Duck). The issue is getting onscreen or reliably sourced confirmation that they have joined the roster. IronManCap (talk) 11:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Plenty of people on Twitter appear to disagree; does a character have to appear in universe as an Avenger to qualify? Probably best to just explain the situation when listing him (eg: “has not appeared with Avengers team on screen, but is endorsed as an Avenger by Marvel, and welcomed to the team by Banner” etc…). — HTGS (talk) 01:32, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, per El Millo. Sea Ane (talk) 20:18, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, per El Millo. — ChannelSpider (talk) 23:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it's probably too early to tell, as pointed out by El Millo. Idealigic (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Reading, here the belief is she ‘will be’ but is not yet one. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:50, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Okoye
Should Okoye be added to the MCU roster? She was present at Natasha Romanoff's Avengers meetings during Endgame. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.134.30 (talk) 02:22, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This has previously been discussed at, in which it was agreed that Okoye is not considered an Avenger. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Wanda Maximoff in Roster
What are our collective thoughts regarding adding a "Departure" for Wanda following events of Doctor Strange 2? Obviously her fate is left ambiguous, but I wanted to get a consensus. Bloodyboppa (talk) 14:32, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Any thought people have is WP:OR. Until there is a new Avengers film or a film featuring the Avengers, any changes to the rooster is pure speculation. Gonnym (talk) 14:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Timeline
Can anyone add the timeline of activity of Avengers members? Vikenviksingh (talk) 07:20, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * could you please clarify what you mean? IronManCap (talk) 10:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

I meant official timeline of MCU is already known and out. Can anyone create a timeline of years when individuals were active as an avengers. For example Steve Rogers/ Captain America was active in 2012, 2015-2016, 2018, 2023. Maybe it would help if the edit is done in diagram or graphical way. Vikenviksingh (talk) 11:11, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Timeline

 * Active as an Avenger.


 * You've got a very nice concept here, but it's missing a few members, so I have transferred it to a sandbox here where we can work on it to get it to the full version. Feel free to continue it there if you wish. IronManCap (talk) 13:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In my opinion the above table is unneeded. Look at all that "dead" space. --Gonnym (talk) 13:49, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "Dead" space is for inacitivity of Avengers. It may be unnecessary but it is full of information, which is motive of wikipedia, sharing information. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 15:56, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand what that space is for. Not everything that exists should be in Wikipedia and not everything needs a table. This for example is a prime example of something that does not need a table. --Gonnym (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your opinions. This page is already having great number of views. We should make more resourceful. Vikenviksingh (talk) 16:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I only added members upto Peter Parker because official Marvel website has written history of Avengers only upto 2018. If we are going to transfer this information into main space. We have to wait till Marvel update their page because we don't know who were members between 2018-2023, when they joined, when they left. But we can edit this in the reference of many newspaper, articles, etc. Vikenviksingh (talk) 16:23, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * has a good point in that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, although the sources could be useful for inclusion. I think we should maybe reformat this into a column on the Team Roster section and use the refs there, in a way that reduces any concerns over WP:FANCRUFT or unnecessary other stuff. IronManCap (talk) 18:52, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Over a year later, someone has now added in a timeline, but it uses the timeline extension instead of an actual table. This addresses the concerns with "dead space", so I think it can be kept for now. Unless still finds it indiscriminate/trivial? InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That still seems to me trivial, and personally I think it also looks like garbage. The timeline extension cannot be made to look good no matter what. Gonnym (talk) 05:46, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It probably also is not color blind accessible. Gonnym (talk) 05:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll remove it then. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Pietro Maximoff to the roster.
In Guidebooks to Marvel Cinematic Universe books that are canon: Pietro Maximoff is included in Avengers many times. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 07:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The Guidebook to the Marvel Cinematic Universe is just a guide, not a canon story. Also, you'll need a reliable source proving he is indeed an official Avengers member. IronManCap (talk) 19:10, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh, come on. Everything in the Guides of MCU is canon in the films except the fact that Pietro isn't member of Avengers? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 20:01, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't say that. I said it's just a guide to the MCU. Anyway, forget 'canon' or not, bring a reliable source that says he's an official Avenger, rather than just a colloquial one. IronManCap (talk) 20:03, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

https://www.cbr.com/why-marvel-killed-quicksilver-avengers-age-of-ultron

https://www.etonline.com/movies/164003_why_avengers_age_of_ultron_killed_off_the_wrong_character Vikenviksingh (talk) 04:10, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Neither of those sources say he officially joined the Avengers. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

First please read whole talk section of this, it was agreed to find reliable source even if it is one. In this references, Pietro is called an "Avenger". And about the thing Pietro not joining officially so read this:

https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/avengers-endgame-refresher-captain-marvel

This is the reference that leads to Captain Marvel's inclusion in this Wikipedia page. In this, she is also named an "Avenger" but there is nothing that says she has officially joined Avengers so if it's the case, why is she in the team? Vikenviksingh (talk) 14:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I think Okoye should be in the team roster
Hello, I need to argue something that is debatable: The thing is that I think Okoye should be on the team roster for this reasons: One, if you notice that in the theatrical poster of Avengers: Endgame only the surviving members of the Avengers with Thanos appear including Okoye. Two, some websites such as Marvel Cinematic Universe, Marvel Movies, and Heroes Wiki put Okoye as a member of the Avengers. so what do you guys think? After reading what I put, would you consider Okoye a member of the Avengers? I do not consider it 100%, so I put this message in this talk to see what you guys think. Pablo the Helper - To your service! 00:27, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You're going to need to provide a reliable source that supports that, in addition to evidence from the films' plots. The MCU Wiki and other Fandom wikis are not considered reliable sources, and your argument about the Endgame poster is WP:OR (and kind of a stretch, if you ask me). InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:24, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Add MODOK to the roster
Spoiler warning:

He was declared an avenger by Scott Lang, an active member, just before his death. If the armies and individuals in Endgame declared Avengers by Captain America are here, then MODOK should be as well. DoggedCorn (talk) 20:05, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This was clearly intended as a joke in the film and not taken seriously by the rest of the characters when said by MODOK. —El Millo (talk) 20:11, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's still worth a mention DoggedCorn (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't. I think it's trivial. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, trivial. —El Millo (talk) 21:30, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a trivial joke. Not worth mentioning. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:37, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Is it even worth mentioning him under "Other characters" like he currently is? --  Zoo Blazer talk 07:00, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, we should remove it. —El Millo (talk) 07:12, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Individuals like Cassie Lang, Hank Pym, Darren Cross / M.O.D.O.K., and the citizens of the Quantum Realm fight the exiled Kang the Conqueror and his army of Quantumnauts alongside the Avenger Scott Lang / Ant-Man during the Battle of the Quantum Realm
 * Is he the only one that should be removed? And that battle name feels like the same situation we had with the final battle of Endgame. --  Zoo Blazer talk 02:23, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we shouldn't mention MODOK in "Other characters" as it was a joke, noting the joke does not justify it. I don't think we should be mentioning the events of Quantumania on this article in that section or in the "Aftermatch" section specifically as it only pertains to one Avengers member (Scott), and not the team as a whole, and these characters allied with Scott, not the Avengers. The Little Guy info should remain, although we have to be careful of what is about the team or just individual members. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the Quantumania stuff is fine in aftermath. That section has been mostly for what the team members have done following Endgame. I did remove Cross from the other characters and the aftermath section though. --  Zoo Blazer talk 02:47, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I suppose that makes sense, as long as it does not diverge too much from this article's scope of the team. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:53, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding another point to this. We should not be conceiving our own terms for these fictional events, and considering that battle one is only used once here (where it shouldn't be mentioned) and was only added by a since blocked IP in May, I don't think there is much credence for it to remain. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * At least it's not as ridiculous as what the fan wiki is calling it ... in all seriousness, I agree, no fan-coined terms on Wikipedia. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:27, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The Harvest
Trying not to get too deep into Secret Invasion spoilers here, but is the Harvest worth mixing into the Aftermath section or elsewhere in the article? I feel like at the very least it should be mentioned somewhere, but if others feel differently, then I won't add anything. --  Zoo Blazer talk 04:40, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I ended up just adding a little info for it. Feel free to move it somewhere else or remove it if you feel it shouldn't be in the article. --  Zoo Blazer talk 16:14, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's worth a mention. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Aftermath section
The article failed the first GA attempt and one of the issues brought up was the aftermath section - At some points, the section doesn't discuss the team as a whole, but individual characters. This is especially apparent in "Aftermath" subsection, which details what happens to every single one of the Avengers post-disbandment

What should we do with the section? --  ZooBlazer talk 20:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)


 * This does go back to concerns I raised in the recent MODOK discussion about the Aftermath section's focus relying too much on individual characters who were on the team but not about the team itself. We have in-universe information at the individual character articles and film and TV articles for a reason. That section as it currently stands explains the events of post-Endgame material which does not specifically revolve around the Avengers team, and I think that should be an area of caution and avoidance. Summarizing the plot of a movie or series with an Avenger as the lead but not the team in it themselves seems irrelevant to this article. We do not need to state what each Avenger did after Endgame here, and should keep it down to information on the Avengers team themselves, such as the Harvest, Lang's book interpretation of the Endgame battle, the Council of Kang's reaction to the 616 Avengers, AvengersCon, and potentially some of the Avengers' retirements or departures from the team as a capper without divulging too far away from this article's subject, although I am less confident on the lattermost and think that we can summarize it with the team disbanding and leave specifics on the characters' fates and future to more relevant articles. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:34, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, I cut out a lot of the unnecessary info, but didn't do much more than that yet. Also renamed the section. --  ZooBlazer talk 21:50, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Earth
The "Battle at the Avengers Compound" has been officially named "Battle of Earth" in the second last episode of Secret Invasion. Do we have to rename that section? Redjedi23 (talk) 16:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)


 * We had a discussion for this naming at Talk:Thor: Love and Thunder, where it was agreed we can use "Battle of Earth" as the official MCU name for properties where it is used (such as Ms. Marvel and Secret Invasion), and to use "the battle at the Avengers Compound" phrasing in plot summaries as a description for properties that don't use the "Battle of Earth" name. This article could use either one, dependent on what it is referring to in context. I would say the "Battle of Earth" term should be addressed within the context of the SI events and the Harvest. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * In the absolute worst case and in case there is a disambiguation needed, a footnote should suffice. Dcdiehardfan (talk) 19:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)