Talk:Avoidant personality disorder

Fanatical deletion of relevant non-profit links
Nonprofit helping links devoted to helping people with avoidant personality disorder should not have been removed from this site. Wikipedia does not prohibit having a few (relevant) nonprofit resource links added in an "External Links Section" at the bottom of the page.

Wikipedia policy discourages fanatical, obsessive and especially thoughtless removal of links. A relevant nonprofit link has nothing in common with a commercial link, although some wiki editors haven't figured that out...

I ask for help from administrators and editors to prevent or reverse fanatical removal of relevant nonprofit links from this site... Please appeal over the heads of thoughtless nonprofit link removals. Aggressive removal of appropriate links is vandalism.

69.171.160.192 (talk) 21:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Kantor's book
I'm not sure Kantor's book should be referenced here, at least not without a caveat. Most of the cases he discusses seem to be about what we'd call "commitment-phobic" behaviours rather than the more broad spectrum of AvPD, i.e. general avoidance of social interaction, and the problems this produces.--Eyeresist 01:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Novel research #2
As I mentioned in the Borderline Personality Disorder discussion page, I'm doing some research for a novel I'm writing, with a character who I thought had BDP. Having read this article on Avoidant Personality Disorder though, it seems like my character is more of an AvPD than a BPD. Thanks Wikipedia! However, I think those with AvPD share some similarities with BPDs. It's interesting stuff.

- Geelin 14:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If someone can please refer me to some professionals in Sydney, Australia, whom I can speak to about AvPD for my novel, that would be most appreciated. Can anyone assist me?

Cheers, Geelin 08:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Social phobia vs. avoidant personality disorder
Do all Social Phobics have Avoidant Personality Disorder? If not, how do you confidently distinguish the two? This article's discription of APD sounds like things that go on in the mind of a clinically socially anxious person.--J. Daily 19:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is puzzling me too. What is the difference between Social Anxiety Disorder and AvPD? By the way, does that 'hello baby' belong in the mnemonic section?! Khirad 05:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The article says "Research suggests that people with avoidant personality disorder, in common with social phobics, excessively monitor their own internal reactions when they are involved in social interaction. However, unlike social phobics they also excessively monitor the reactions of the people with whom they are interacting." I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me if this is accurate, or if there are any other differences. --DearPrudence 17:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I was diagnosed with AvPD nearly 6 years ago and I've done a lot research on AvPD and Social Phobia. From what I've learned, the difference is very little, but basically the feeling of anxiety in AvPD is a lot more severe. I had AvPD so bad that I couldn't even apply for a job or have any friends. It was to the point where I had to either ask for help or commit suicide. Fortunately, I sought help. I'm so much better now...have several friends, going to college, and have a job... So, yeah, that's my two cents. Ioxmo 02:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this article should make clear that, contrarily to some other disorders related to social interaction, a person suffering from AvPD is not happy with avoiding social interaction and staying alone, and yearns to somehow find the strength to communicate with other people and let them know her true self and be appreciated just like anybody else. I was diagnosed with AvPD myself and by no means does it mean that I will not attend a party or any social gathering. I actually seek such gatherings, each time hoping that it will be the day when I will really talk to friends who will be there and whom I love. Rano —The preceding unsigned comment was added by USER NAME OR IP (talk • contribs).


 * I really do like it when the discussion becomes circular and returns to the subject with an insight or formulation of a need to be addressed in the article. However, I also feel the need to stay on task, to be concise, and perhaps limit the personal confessional side a bit. Many of us also have experiences to share but, in my opinion, refraining from overdoing it will help the work of editing this article by staying on task. Personal talk pages might be a better place.Bearpa 03:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the main difference is that one is a phobia and one is a personality disorder. So basically APD is when you have a certian personality that cuases you to avoid social situations and other symptoms as well such as feeling inferior to other, having a fear of rejection, which is not usually present in social phobia.


 * Social anxiety is not a phobia. It is an avoidance meachanism that is driven by an overly sensitive instict toward preservation.  Avoidant personality disorder is a characterological dysfunction.


 * The first is instinctual, the second psycho-social wired. Although the descriptions of many things in the psych pages here would appear to suggest similarity between two divergent diagnositic categories (because much of what is written is not done so by professionals), this being one of them, the two things are night and day. --DashaKat 19:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "psycho-social wired" -- care to elaborate on this notion? You suggesting that one is more biologically rooted than the other?  AvPD looks like general social anxiety disorder to me with more pervasive and more distorted negative cognitions.  Can't a characterological dysfunction be such that it is geared toward an exaggerated preservation instinct?  How do you distinguish which it really is when they look the same? DivisionByZer0 06:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason you don't see the distinction is, judging by your contributions, you're a mathemetician, not a social scientist. And no, that's not what I'm suggesting.  I'm saying the biological roots are different, the manner in which those biological roots inform development are, thus, different, and, although the behavior looks the same, the foundation for the behavior is different.


 * That should have read "psycho-socially wired". Characterological dysfunction that has its roots in social interaction (Paranoid PD, Borderline PD, etc.) is primarily a learned behavior.  It is a distortion of interior development that is informed by a biological predisposition to anxiety and/or depression.  This predisposition is magnified by the attitudinal profile that an individual develops based on experience, which, in turn, contribute to the development of the filters that we all use to color our perception.  In the case of someone with a personality disorder, you can think of him/her as someone with his/her filters permanently out of focus.


 * GAD or simple generalized anxiety has its roots in fight-or-flight. It is a hard-wired, instinctual, and primal reaction that has, itself, gotten distorted.  Again, the behavior looks the same, but it's the precursors and antecedents that cause the two things to be differentiated.


 * Also, you can't equate a personality disorder with a behavioral disorder. It's apples and oranges.  In this case, it's more like oranges and tangerines, becuase we are looking at two things that appear the same.  Think of it like American football versus Canadian football...the behaviors are the smae, but the rules differ enough that they are, ultimately, entirely different activities. --DashaKat 11:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Flattering, but unfourtunately I'm someone who just likes both math and social science, however more experience with the former. You seem to be knowledgable on this topic -- do you have any sources I could look at which address AvPD and how to treat it?  I'm trying to get a "correct" diagnosis for myself -- my psychiatrist insists that the differentiation between AvPD and SAD is mainly a matter of degree of impairment.  When I read the description of SAD and AvPD both seem to "fit" what I experience to some degree.  If you have some sources which you wouldn't mind sharing, my email is this username at hotmail.com. 68.37.138.139 18:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * OK...I'm starting this post with a DISCLAIMER, as I am always slamming people for keeping these forums about the article...but, you made a request that would leave me professionally remiss if I dismissed it. So, here are some references that may be helpful.  Some of them are going to seem off-base in terms of topic, but...trust me...


 * Abusive Relationships Workbook


 * A Therapist's Guide to Personality Disorders


 * Distancing: A Guide to Avoidance and Avoidant Personality Disorder


 * Avoidant Personality Disorder Workbook (Aaron Beck...as in THE Aaron Beck - great stuff)


 * Workbook: Mastery of Your Anxiety and Worry


 * [on the counter-Borderline.pdf|Perspectives on the counter-Borderline]


 * Co-dependent No More


 * Counter Dependence


 * Shadow Syndromes - great perspective on the mix/and match/not-quite-co-occurring nature of this stuff. --DashaKat 16:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Many thanks. I'm sharing your comments and sources with a social anxiety forum, in AvPD thread which has long since been idle.  Should be helpful to all those who are nonw popping up saying "wow, I never thought something could so accurately describe the way I feel".  Cheers. DivisionByZer0 05:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I can find the others but been unable to locate AvPD Workbook by Beck -- got an ISBN for it? 68.37.138.139 08:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Division, while im not speaking against you or anyone with this disorder, people who are reading this and saying "hey I have that" are usually going to just be really awkward people who want to self-diagnose themselves with a disorder to explain away their own ineptitude. Just pointing it out. Now watch somebody with self-diagnosed APD delete this because it makes them mad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.240.123 (talk) 20:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * 24.188.240.123, I'm responding as someone who is not self-diagnosed with this or any other pscyhological disorder (and does not even personally relate to Avoidant Personality Disorder for that matter). Really awkward people generally do have some form of psychological issue; social ineptitude usually does derive from a psychological issue.  The majority of self-diagnosers may be misguided, but psychological models of thinking can exist in many combinations and severities.  For example, while only a small segment of the population could be said to have narcissistic personality disorder, narcissistic thinking (that is, the thinking patterns associated with NPD) can occur in anyone.  So a person who wouldn't be diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder might nonetheless recognize these common psychological constructions in themself (and hopefully learn to address it).  What's your self-diagnosed disorder, anyway, to explain why you're so spiteful? I'm sure you're exactly what the merely socially inept need to get back on track... 216.15.127.190 (talk) 12:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It's actually quite simple. Avoidant Personality Disorder is severe Social Phobia, much like how Narcissistic Personality Disorder is severe Narcissism. Der unaussprechliche (talk) 07:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really. I have AvPD, but it would be a stretch to say I have Social Phobia. I have little problem with social interactions that are brief (e.g. meeting new people) or highly structured (e.g. the classic public speaking example). I suppose it is because I don't expect intense personal evaluation in those superficial situations. - 152.76.1.244 (talk) 03:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, if the populations overlap the concepts derive from different models/schools. FiachraByrne (talk) 03:44, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * exactly. the structuring really is a key element here - what the AvPD fears is the out of left field attack by someone skilled at engineering public humiliation 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:49E7:4428:F49B:8CCB (talk) 09:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * There is no real diagnostic difference between social anxiety or social phobia and "avoidant personality disorder". Like much of modern psychiatry it is an important-sounding re-framing of quite simple things. I'm sure this article is aiding lots of self-diagnosis, haha. 104.228.101.152 (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
 * social anxiety or social phobia can be late-onset afflictions specific to certain situations and triggers, whereas a PD permeates a psyche, as it were, stemming from event(s) earlier in life. that said, sure, there can be overlap 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:49E7:4428:F49B:8CCB (talk) 09:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussing citing format before providing the needed citation
It appears that the citations in the article are scholarly but not really very wikiupdated. So I propose that the format of citation in this article be converted to a more "linkful" one. I'm no expert on citation in wikipedia but I've seen other articles with external links which are more convenient to reference. However, I've just looked through the now recommended cite.php footnotes format extension (not the deprecated Footnote3 system), and I understand why there is an almost complete lack of external links cited and referenced. The system is quite a bit more intimidating, and the old Footnote3 format, which I was just getting the hang of, will someday soon be obsolete. So the author here chose to use an alternate method, which is acceptable according to one of the citing wikipages I've read. I propose that interested contributors discuss an appropriate re-citing to allow extensive external links. This could be either finding a willing cite.php adept to re-cite the present references, or one of the presently interested contributors changing over the present cites to Footnote3 so that it can be converted later, via a bot, also wielded by an adept. Interested parties please respond so we can all start thinking about this. Don't forget to use colons to indent your entries and please sign them so we all know who is saying what.

Now I want to add a citation that is marked "needed" in the article. By the way, this entry emphasises the above comments because some of the sources cited themselves offer a wealth of information as well as numerous corroborations and bibliographies, which enriches understanding. I had better create a new heading here so future editors can easily find this.Bearpa 18:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Entering needed citation
Found good article online with expansive documentation. This could cite to the end of the next sentence instead of where shown. I will try to cite in the APD article like the present author has, and enter the reference as shown in citing sources and templates:cite web. One problem is the length of the article on one text page, so in notes, I will give a location in the article. Might be helpful, might be overkill. Please offer suggestions.Bearpa 18:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, a couple of things came up for me during the edit:
 * there is no notes section to indicate the location of the specific passage in the cited article that supports the entry in wiki article. I will enter it here for any one who might like to refer to it: the first paragraph under the third heading (Treatment Provider Guidlines) in the second section (Treating the AvPD) of the article (link in references section of wiki article).
 * should we have a notes section? I noticed in the archives some comments added to another cited reference in the reference section (later removed for other reasons). That didn't seem so bad though - they were there with the source involved which connects the comments immediately. Anyway, thoughts?
 * Also, two new issues for me:
 * ABBREVIATION CORRECTION - I've done it myself. It's in the article intro. I'm becoming aware that APD is also the general abbreviation for Anti-social Personality Disorder and the clinical and academic sources seem to be using AvPD for Avoidant Personality Disorder. I think this is what should be used to avoid confusion.
 * I added a "citation needed" for the rest of the paragraph after my citation. I'm not sure, but this is almost OR insofar as, otherwise, an actual, reliable survey of websites would have to have been done, and rather thanspeaking for "the psychological community", this would have to become a verifiable fact. The conclusion, though, is probably obvious about the websites, since they repeat the treatment issue already referred to, though this seems somewhat redundant. A rewrite could reframe the thought, perhaps.
 * A greater issue though, perhaps, is the lack of complete attribution in the first two sections of the article. Does DSM-IV need to be cited if referred to in the article? What about the mnemonic? Certainly the first half of the Link with other disorders section is not cited. Probably deepening and broadening the entire article should be contemplated too (though I do appreciate how concise it is now). Anywho, more grist for the mill. Long-winded, I know. Apologies.Bearpa 01:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

To the "widow" unsigned post at the top of this page:
I wish to comment but there's a problem w/ your post that led me on a wild goose edit where I had to learn about reverts and undoing revert revisions (if that makes any sense at all). Anyway let me just copy an entry that was part of that ill-fated effort that might explain:

Sorry, I was not signed on when first appending the above unsigned signature (the posting was by Portillo on 30 September 2006). I'm getting an "editing a prior version" warning so that I'm worried I will unintentionally revert all later version (and entries?); if I do I will try to undo (not to sure of myself when it comes to the intricacies). If you'll notice, though, there are two equal sign (==) on only one side of the entry and there is no edit link (edit) in this post's section so there seems to have been a prob. w/the post, but I want to comment on this post. I hope I haven't flubbed things too much; not my intention. Live and learn. (Much chaos ensued when saved, but I'm OK now) What got me started here was that I really wanted to comment, to Portillo or any others, that this is a good question and I am curious as well, also about personality or anxiety disorders affecting those with long-term intrusive disease or medical conditions and/or long-term, chronic, or severe recurring pain. Anyone with experiences? Bearpa 04:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Now I am re-signing in realtime Bearpa 04:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no mention of ppl who feel socially inept because of physical reasons such as scars or deformities. What does this go under? Portillo 08:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Notable sufferers?
am i missing something? why is 'the white rabbit' listed?71.232.108.228 07:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone added this to the white rabbit page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Rabbit&diff=prev&oldid=109766817 I'm not sure what their reasoning is, it should probably be removed.

All we have for notable sufferers right now is two fictional characters. Does anyone know of any "real life" notable sufferers that we could add? --DearPrudence 06:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Seeing as people with AvPD tend to avoid social interaction, are socially inhibited, et cetera, it seems unlikely that there will be many "well known" sufferers. --Mark PEA 14:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ted Kaczynski, perhaps? - Cyborg Ninja 11:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No. Aikaterinē 17:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Joseph Cornell, reportedly. --80.235.111.150 (talk) 19:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Who is the second fictional character? I assume Shinji Ikari is one of them as its so obvious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.236.146 (talk) 14:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC) I assume the 2nd fictional character is Holden Caulfield, widely used as an example of alienation. NoraTes (talk) 18:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Holden most like had what used to be masochistic personality disorder, pathological lying, and passive-aggressive personality disorder. Peter Pan syndrome also seems plausible. I realize that most of these are not current diagnoses, but they do describe him quite well. MichaelExe (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that Holden probably had AvPD. Fanny Price from Mansfield Park definitely did. Also Danielle Jones, Jean from American Psycho and probably Eve Harrington from All About Eve. --194.81.33.7 (talk) 19:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Tom Ripley seemed to suffer from the disorder in the Matt Damon version of The Talented Mr Ripley. In the books he's more narcissistic or psychopathic. --194.81.33.7 (talk) 13:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Toshiko Sato from Torchwood. Most characters in that have a personality disorder. --86.134.23.181 (talk) 17:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Kurt Wallander. --194.81.33.9 (talk) 18:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

"Creation of a fantasy world"
I know this now links to the page for "magical thinking", but could we elaborate a little more on it? I think that "creating a fantasy world" and "using magical thinking" are fairly different things. (Feel free to correct me if this isn't the case.) --DearPrudence 01:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You are correct that they are different things and I removed the link to magical thinking. Magical thinking is associated with schizotypal personality disorder and involves the inability to distinguish cause and correlation.  There is no evidence avoidant types are especially prone to magical thinking; having a fantasy world does not mean you can't tell the fantasy from reality.  Even the link to fantasy world is not very helpful, since the page describes fantasy worlds in literature, not psychology -- but I left it in for now.


 * It should be removed altogether. In point of fact, the "creation of a fantasy world" is more properly referred to as a "fixed fantasy". --DashaKat 14:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Should we change it to say "Creation of a fixed fantasy", then? And should we add a quick explanation for that point? I feel like it's a bit unclear at the moment. --DearPrudence 18:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * IMHO, it should read "Attachment to fixed fantasy" or "Investment in fixed fantasy". I would be more than happy to write a stub defining fixed fantasy, and differentiating it from a delusional system to which we could link. Blessings. --DashaKat 15:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Either of those sound good, and it would be excellent to have a stub for 'fixed fantasy'. --DearPrudence 16:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Avoidance behavior
Should this link here? The Encyclopedia Britannica article on this is concerned mainly with behavior in nature, such as antipredator behaviors. Richard001 01:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No. Avoidant behavior in nature is instinctive. In humans, it is both instinctive and premeditated.  However avoidant behavior, whether reactive or responsive, is a mechanism of preservation.  A personality disorder presumes an atypical interpretation of reality and is not a mechanism of preservation, but a disturbance of character. Good question, though. --DashaKat 12:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this even a real disorder then? If avoidance of the unknown is instinctive, wouldn't avoidance of social interaction be a natural attribute of somebody with a limited social world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.240.123 (talk) 20:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Avoidance in and of itself is not inherently a disorder, to some extent it is natural and healthy. The difference between that and a disorder is that in a disorder like AvPD the person avoids things so much that their avoidant behavior makes their life more difficult, rather than help them. The avoidant behavior becomes maladaptive, not adaptive. Lorus (talk) 16:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed 'style' section
This is a page on Avoidant personality disorder. It is not a page on neurotic styles. Putting a differentiation section on this page creates an editorial situation where this type of section would then be required on every personality disorders page.

We would be better off creating a page on Shadow syndromes, or Neurotic styles, as opposed to addressing this here. --DashaKat 17:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * And a page on made up fantasy diseases used as a crutch to explain away social ineptitude —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.240.123 (talk) 20:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, and depression is a made-up disease to explain away being a bit down in the dumps. Could I ask you please, if you're going to continue attacking people with this disorder, do it somewhere more appropriate, this page is intended for comments on the article, not the subject itself. --Closedmouth (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Unsigned, why are you saying that about people who might recognize all the symptoms of AvPD in themselves,  and maybe feel the need to get treatment so they can get over it?  Usually people say things like what you said about something like Asperger's Syndrome, which has no known cure. (I'm not saying Asperger's is made up; I'm just saying that it (AS) is something that I've heard people being accused of saying they had AS when they were just a little socially inept or shy.)   If someone wanted to "explain away" social ineptitude, presumably without doing any work on themselves, wouldn't they say they had something incurable, because they might think that no one would wonder why they don't work on their social ineptitude. With something like AvPD and social anxiety disorder, if someone kept saying they couldn't do things because of it, eventually someone would call them on it and wonder why they didn't get treatment for their AvPD.  Most people would probably rather have friends and do well socially.   If they recognize that something like a personality disorder or an anxiety disorder is keeping them from this, shouldn't they get help for it rather than have people say they're making excuses for social ineptitude?  What do you propose they do about their social ineptitude then, if it's caused by excessive fear and/or hiding from others because of their misperceived ideas about themselves or others?  --Norah (talk) 10:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Comorbidities
what about eating disorders?

I think a list of comorbidities would be easier to quickly read than prose form. anyone else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.212.236 (talk) 08:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarification
This sentence, in the first section, needs clarification: "Whether the feeling of rejection is due to the extreme interpersonal monitoring attributed to people with the disorder is still disputed." Does this mean that they pay too much attention to people around them, or that they are paid too much attention to? -Me, 5/7/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.118.73.116 (talk) 09:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The former. --Closedmouth (talk) 12:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed fantasies
"Investment in fixed fantasies" What does this mean? I read the article on fixed fantasies, but a few examples would help, I think.  Azure Fury  (talk | contribs) 08:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it kind of means daydreaming, but with recurring themes, like fantasizing that they are friends and can easily talk to people who in reality they have never spoken to before. --Mark PEA (talk) 22:55, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've found another example in Timothy_McVeigh. "He was picked on by bullies at school, and took refuge in a fantasy world in which he retaliated against them". The article also says that he was "known throughout his life as a loner", which to me implies that he was also avoidant. --Mark PEA (talk) 12:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting...thanks.  Azure Fury  (talk | contribs) 17:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Fixed Fantasys does not mean one daydreams alot, although this is common among Avoidants. What a fixed fantasy actually means is an almost unalterable belief about oneself.i.e. AvPD=Delusions of inferiority. NPD=Delusions of superiority ect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.247.12 (talk) 09:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

To those who worked on this page (I don't mean the talk page)
Thank You. 19:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.145.131 (talk)


 * Your welcome. Portillo (talk) 21:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to say thank you, although I know it is out of place on this page (feel free to delete this entry). I never really knew I had AvPD until I read this and it hit me like a ton of bricks in the gut that it was like reading something written by someone who could see into my hidden soul. I'd just want the people who contributed to this page to know that this page really helped me to get help. Just knowing there was something to define the way I felt and that there were likely others like me too has made a big difference and just being able to point people to this page when I need to explain why I am the way I am (which I can't do very well on account of the AvPD) really helps too.

Just to make this a little bit on-topic, I'd like to say I think the article is perfect and I hope nobody changes it (at least not much) because I am sure it is helping a lot of other AvPD people understand their condition and be encouraged that other (non-AvPD) people are being helped to understand them also.

Thanks again, and again, feel free to delete this (but I hope it can stay up for a while just so other contributors can read it and know their efforts are very appreciated) 82.43.197.132 (talk) 21:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Links to AvPD chat rooms?
This page used to feature links to chat rooms for AvPD sufferers and no longer does. Is this some sort of policy decision? Anyway, the old chat room for avoidants seems to have closed down. To try and replace it an IRC channel for AvPD has been created, maybe it can be linked to from here. Its irc://irc.slackhost.net/avpd. Easiest way to get there is prolly to use Mibbit through this link http://www.mibbit.com/chat/?server=irc.slackhost.net&channel=%23avpd# —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.28.105 (talk) 08:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Distinguishing from depression
In schizoid personality disorder and paranoid personality disorder, we distinguish them from mood disorders. I went through a depression (of the melancholic subtype, I assume) last year, but some of my symptoms overlapped with this disorder, namely: Even though I had the required amount of symptoms, I doubt that I suffered from this personality disorder. My depression started after I had acted stubborn toward my parents, and the stress of schoolwork, topped by a failed relationship, procrastination and what sounds like obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, contributed to the anxiety, but my depression ended with the school year (after it was so unbearable that I told my parents, and went for one uncomfortable session with a psychologist). I also had most of the symptoms of dysthymia but they didn't last nearly long enough.
 * "Shows restraint initiating intimate relationships because of the fear of being ashamed, ridiculed, or rejected due to severe low self-worth", (I had just gone through a failed relationship a couple months before the depression, but I still couldn't let go, and still can't because we share(d) almost all of our classes)
 * "Is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy", (although I was "shy" all of the time throughout my depression)
 * "Views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others", and
 * "Is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing".

SO (for all you tl;dr's), I'd like to know whether major depressive disorder (which also included low self-esteem in its description) should cancel out the diagnosis of avoidant personality disorder, as it does with schizoid and paranoid personality disorders, because they share symptoms (that mostly didn't persist longer than the depression, in my case). I was anxious all of the time, and even more so around people (although I still feel nervous when at the mall or during oral presentations, as I always have), but I met nearly all of the criteria for a major depressive episode. Should we leave a note about this? MichaelExe (talk) 15:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

BigTent Avoidant Group
I tried to sign up with this group the other day. I don't seem to fit the requirements, though. I asked on another avoidant forum whether anybody was ever able to get an account there, and most said that they tried but got rejected as I did. I don't think the group should be mentioned in the article. --Anonymous Avoidant, 3 August 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.68.76 (talk) 23:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They might judge based on the severity of the disorder. Perhaps they only accept those comorbid with a type of depression? MichaelExe (talk) 23:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I had no problem signing up for the group about a month or so ago. Were you sure to follow all the instructions during sign up? They will reject you if you do not type in the reason you want to join the group. It is their way of trying to protect against spammers. The only thing I put was that I had been suffering from AvPD for so many years, and I was approved within a few hours. It is a legit site, and therefore there is no reason it shouldn't be mentioned in the article. Cokie500 (talk) 06:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I was in the BigTent Avoidant group. I e-mailed two moderators about people not being able to sign up. I never got an answer. A few weeks later I tried to sign in and found my account had been deleted. I don't think the group should be mentioned in the article either Another Anonymoue Avoidant, 6 September 2009

Famous people
Is there any famous people with this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omegakingboo (talk • contribs) 14:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably, but they likely wouldn't have opted for performance where they're under the scrutiny of others (such as acting, although being in a band might be okay, as long as they aren't the vocalist). I can't think of any famous people with it, though. MichaelExe (talk) 16:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Mark David Chapman perhaps?
 * Morrissey? From 'Ask': "Shyness is nice, and/Shyness can stop you/From doing all the things in life/You'd like to";
 * "How Soon is Now?": "I am the son/and the heir/of a shyness that is criminally vulgar/I am the son and heir/of nothing in particular
 * You shut your mouth/how can you say/I go about things the wrong way/I am human and I need to be loved/just like everybody else does
 * I am the son/and the heir/of a shyness that is criminally vulgar/I am the son and the heir/of nothing in particular
 * You shut your mouth/how can you say/I go about things the wrong way/I am human and I need to be loved/just like everybody else does
 * There's a club if you'd like to go/you could meet somebody who really loves you/so you go, and you stand on your own/and you leave on your own/and you go home, and you cry/and you want to die
 * When you say it's gonna happen "now"/well, when exactly do you mean?/see I've already waited too long/and all my hope is gone

You shut your mouth/how can you say/I go about things the wrong way/I am human and I need to be loved/just like everybody else does
 * There are very few people in the public eye who have AvPD, because avoidants are very introverted and anxious. Cluster C people don't want attention from lots of people and hence would not seek it out. They would not perform in bands of in front of an audience as entertainers in any capacity; they would be terrified in hat situation. Morrisey is introverted in comparison to most rock musicians, but he's a controversial character who certainly doesn't display AvPD. Avoidants are not confrontational, they are anxious loners who'd hate the negative attention from the authorities that shooting someone would cause, so Mark David Chapman doesn't have it. The vast majority of the personality disordered people whom are in the public eye are in Cluster B. Jim Michael (talk) 20:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * you'd be surprised how many university lecturers are AvPD... 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:49E7:4428:F49B:8CCB (talk) 09:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If someone with AvPD is naturally bright, and is taught at school that the way to gain approval and to get on in life is to keep their head down, work hard and pass their exams, they may well just stay on the educational conveyor belt as long as they can, never daring to plunge off it into the "real world", passing through school, university and post-grad work, until they become a lecturer ... and only at that point appreciate that their chosen path involves "performing" in front of a crowd. Yeah, yeah, I know, WP:FORUM. GrindtXX (talk) 13:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Copyright problems with diagnostic criteria
The American Psychiatric Association has not released its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders into public domain, but claims copyright. The Wikimedia Foundation has received a letter of complaint (2010030910040817, for those with access) about the use of their diagnostic criteria in this and a number of other articles. Currently, this content is blanked pending investigation, which will last approximately one week. Please feel free to provide input at the copyright problems board listing during that time. Individuals with access to the books would be particularly welcome in helping to conduct the investigation. Assistance developing a plan to prevent misuse of the APA's material on Wikipedia projects would also be welcome. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

External Link - subjective account of AvPD on YouTube
Hi,

I created an external link section for this page and linked to a youtube clip of a subjective account of the disorder by a sufferer. The clip is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ7qYH4ud4U

I've two questions. 1) Is all youtube content to be considered under copyright?

2) Obviously external sources should be authorities on the subject. However, this is a link providing a subjective, first-person narrative of the disorder. It is not claiming a clinical perspective, but it should, I think, be considered authoritative as to the possible personal experience of the disorder. It's a very articulate and accurate account from the sufferer's perspective. Are all such sources barred from usage in wiki articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FiachraByrne (talk • contribs) 13:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * wikipedia never normally allows youtube as a source as it is not reliable, most videos on there are peoples own work. we have had revert any attempts to use it a source before and will continue to do so. Also youtube videos are copywrited, try uploading a video there with a Lady Gaga or Justin Timberlake song and you'll find your video muted or even removed by WMG faster then you can say rickroll. -- Lerd the nerd  wiki defender  09:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * This is from the policy statement of wikipedia on external links: "There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page (see Restrictions on linking and Links normally to be avoided). Many videos hosted on YouTube or similar sites do not meet the standards for inclusion in External links sections, and copyright is of particular concern. Many YouTube videos of newscasts, shows or other content of interest to Wikipedia visitors are copyright violations. Links should be evaluated for inclusion with due care on a case-by-case basis. Links to online videos should also identify the software necessary for readers to view the content. For example, all links to YouTube videos should, if applicable, indicate that Flash Video software or a web browser supporting H.264/MPEG-4 AVC is necessary to see the content." There is no blanket ban on the use of YouTube as an external link. I'm not talking about using it as a source. Not all youtube videos are under copyright and there is no way that this particular video is under copyright. It is not a commercial release and is no way equivalent to a Lady Gaga or Justin Timberlake tune which would operate under copyright for very obvious reasons. FiachraByrne (talk) 11:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I've reposted the YouTube link. As you haven't replied here or at your Userpage I assume that there is no problem. Just to reiterate, this video does not infringe any 3rd party copyright in any way. Further, it provides a credible first-person account of the condition. This is by its nature a subjective account but it provides an insight into the condition that clinicians cannot provide. Any assessment as to this external link's "authority" in this context needs to evaluate the material (i.e. watch the clip and assess the quality of the statements made in that clip by the sufferer and not just reflexively delete on the basis that the link is to a YouTube clip). I think people who have received a diagnosis of AvPD will recognise something of themselves in this clip. Also, please respond here first before any attempt at summary deletion of the link.FiachraByrne (talk) 01:58, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Adding to Sign and Symptoms
I propose to add some more information of the disorder by adding some more details about the subject and those affected by it. Below is what i would like to add:

Avoidant personality disorder is more commonly found to be diagnosed in females than in males. Those with this disorder may often choose jobs of isolation so that they do not have to interact with the public regularly, do to their anxiety and fear of embarrassing themselves in front of others. Some afflicted by this disorder may fantasize about idealized, accepting, and affectionate relationships, do to their desire to belong. They often feel themselves unworthy of the relationships they desire so they shame themselves from ever attempting the relationship at all. Tncook10 (talk) 16:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

"Paroxysmic?"
this word appears in the table of subtypes as a characteristic of the conflicted avoidant type. The word links to an article about the sudden intensification of seizures and other neurological problems. It doesn't look relevant at all. Unless Millon was using the word metaphorically to mean that people suffering from this have sudden periods of feeling much worse about themselves? Lucy Kemnitzer (talk) 02:16, 7 July 2019 (UTC)Lucy Kemnitzer

"Avoidant individuals also avoid performing activities in public spaces for fear of embarrassing themselves in front of others."
This may not be quite accurate - a person with this disorder would never want to speak in front of a large group "as themselves" but be quite comfortable doing this "in their professional capacity" e.g. lecturer, chairperson, preacher, teacher, tour guide (and yes, despite appearances they may get gang pressed into any of these roles) where the emphasis is not on putting one's self forward, but ensuring that a message gets across... 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:49E7:4428:F49B:8CCB (talk) 09:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)